Catholics VS Health Care in America: Morally Embarrassing

[Mudgely]

Never, ever, apologize for embracing the truth. It is also not bigoted to embrace the truth. That does not mean that one is uncharitable,nor treated others in a bad way, just that they adhere to the laws of God.

Yet it is bigotry to declare a false truth. There is the challenge here of econciling ancient (pre 18th century thiniking and modern thinking. There is also the issue of a weak God which Carholics embrace with respect to “natural law”.

How would you reconciile your concept that God is weak, with the resolution of static Natural Law?

 

[cyrusthegreat]

Where did I change the subject about Michelle’s patriotism.

I gave you the link once, yet you keep ignoring what is coming out of Obama’s mouth. That he argued the infants born alive act, that he did in fact argue that if an abortion failed and the baby lived, that it was ok to withhold medical care and allow the baby to die is a fact.

IF you would find that to be true, would it change your mind about him?

Are you going from forum to forum pasting the same response?

No, your allegation is not a fact. Your assertion that, “Obama argued in front of the IL senate that if the original intent was to abort that it should be ok to withhold medical care from a born healthy baby and allow it to die”, is not true. There has never been a day that Obama, in front of the IL senate, or anywhere else, made such an absurd argument.

A lie is intrinsically evil and can never be justified by any cause.

I have read the transcripts and listened to all that you suggested on Jill Stanek’s February 19, 2008, blog. I found nothing that Obama said that was even remotely similar to your alleged Obama quote. I actually have little feeling one way or the other about Obama personally. If you can prove by way of a transcript of Obama stating what you allege he said, it would be influential as to how I view him personally. I’m asking for a transcript, not what you assume he intended to say, or your interpretation of what he said, or what some propagandist wants you to believe he said, but the truth. If you can’t provide such a transcript, you are obligated to denounce this slander.

 

[dmelosi]

On road now will have to post later.

No, your allegation is not a fact. Your assertion that, “Obama argued in front of the IL senate that if the original intent was to abort that it should be ok to withhold medical care from a born healthy baby and allow it to die”, is not true. There has never been a day that Obama, in front of the IL senate, or anywhere else, made such an absurd argument.

A lie is intrinsically evil and can never be justified by any cause.

I have read the transcripts and listened to all that you suggested on Jill Stanek’s February 19, 2008, blog. I found nothing that Obama said that was even remotely similar to your alleged Obama quote. I actually have little feeling one way or the other about Obama personally. If you can prove by way of a transcript of Obama stating what you allege he said, it would be influential as to how I view him personally. I’m asking for a transcript, not what you assume he intended to say, or your interpretation of what he said, or what some propagandist wants you to believe he said, but the truth. If you can’t provide such a transcript, you are obligated to denounce this slander.

 

[tonyrey]

So you accept the fact that innocent babies are tortured and killed because their parents and our society has decided it is right to do so?

And for all of you discussing the issue, please refrain from using the term “free health care”. There is no such thing as free health care and I would know this even if I had not worked for hospitals for 30 years.

It is a bit like saying you cannot legislate morality. All law is based on morality. All law is a codification of a society’s moral values. We might argue about the source of our moral values or the justification for our morality, but the laws we pass and the laws we obey are our nations’s moral code.

In a democratic nation laws are passed by a government elected by a majority which very often does not subscribe to Christian beliefs and values. Whether we like it not we are powerless to enforce our will on the rest of society.

“Free health care” means that it is free for those who cannot afford to pay for it…

 

[LemonAndLime]

In a democratic nation laws are passed by a government elected by a majority which very often does not subscribe to Christian beliefs and values. Whether we like it not we are powerless to enforce our will on the rest of society.

“Free health care” means that it is free for those who cannot afford to pay for it…

 

[vsedriver]

Abortion laws and free health care are clearly separate moral issues.
.

So you are saying we have a moral obligation to pay taxes for free health care. Using that logic, don’t we have a moral obligation to pay taxes for free food, clothing, and housing? And if everyone has a right to free health care then doesn’t everyone have a right to free food, clothing and housing?

I say we have a moral obligation to donate to charities that care for the poor and the sick. The government should not be in the charity business.

 

[vsedriver]

The truth has to be demonstrated rationally. I don’t care who the bishops consulted. If they are against free health care, then they are wrong. A truth isn’t a truth just because it happens to be the opinion of the Pope or Bishop.

In practice, the bishops aren’t against free health care. Many catholic hospitals serve the poor at no charge. The bishops are against a government law that forces them to provide insurance coverage for immoral practices.

Besides, sterilization, contraceptives and abortions are elective procedures. Name any other elective medical procedure covered by insurance. By this reasoning all elective procedures should be covered by health insurance. Should my boob job or face lift be covered?

 

[LemonAndLime]

In practice, the bishops aren’t against free health care. Many catholic hospitals serve the poor at no charge. The bishops are against a government law that forces them to provide insurance coverage for immoral practices.

Besides, sterilization, contraceptives and abortions are elective procedures. Name any other elective medical procedure covered by insurance. By this reasoning all elective procedures should be covered by health insurance. Should my boob job or face lift be covered?

In the NHS, cosmetic surgery is not covered.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

And yet people are in FACT married. Please elaborate.

Just because the government says they are married doesn’t make them married sacramentally.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Yet it is bigotry to declare a false truth. There is the challenge here of econciling ancient (pre 18th century thiniking and modern thinking. There is also the issue of a weak God which Carholics embrace with respect to “natural law”.

How would you reconciile your concept that God is weak, with the resolution of static Natural Law?

Then why are you declaring a false truth?

Modern thinking isn’t always right. Our “modern thinking” has caused us to murder millions of our children. And my God isn’t weak. I thought that insulting other religions like that was against forum rules as well.

 

[Brendan]

And yet people are in FACT married. Please elaborate.

Yes, the civil government declared them to be married. Likewise, a civil government could state that all circles are squares and 2+2=5, but that would not make it so.

 

[JDaniel]

Okay, I’ll bite. Why does universal health care HAVE to include abortion?

Jack:

I guess, that’s the question most Catholics have been asking; and it’s a poignant question.

It appears that there is an insidiousness about; especially now that Universal Health Care has become that vehicle into which all kinds of unholy activities can be appended. In this regard MoM is right: “Abortion” should be a separate issue, but certain of our insidious government officials are making it an issue that may bring down the entire possibility of a workable and acceptable health care solution. That, to me, is what is unholy.

This thread has as its subject, “Catholics against health care,” and in that regard the premise is poorly stated. I can’t imagine any Catholics being against “health care.” Only a moron would profess such a view. The question (among others) is, Is it affordable in this day and age? In my opinion, were it not for the already large burden of taxation (on American citizens) health care might be free for everyone. We’re now at 26.9% of gross income, and “tax freedom day” is in early April this year. A short time ago, we here higher and I think 2012 - 2016 will exceed the highest percentage we have ever known.

It is Catholic hospitals that have provided most of the (expensive) free health care that has been provided in this country, with the possible exception of the teaching hospitals. Some reasonable middle ground must be established and adhered to. Politicians cannot be allowed to use “universal health care” as a football. That depicts their selfish desire to get re-elected, not to help people who need health care support.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

The % of taxes per person which go towards the NHS is currently set at 11.8% above basic allowance.

Compared to average American % of wages going towards health insurance, which is, for a middle-income family, as much as 22%. (Source: Google).

But I’m not sure why I’m responding to your post as you are being deliberately flippant. This is a forum for mature discussion.

I’m not entirely sure what the accusation of NHS workers having to work for free is coming from either.

L&L:

I was being flippant, to some extent, but that is the serious question that must be answered, or at least considered. In the US, we’re already being taxed at 27% of gross income, a sizable portion of which is already going to entitlement programs. I don’t know what the tipping point is, but, there is (or, will be) one - especially now that insidious politicians have caused our mortgage foreclosure debacle.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

In a democratic nation laws are passed by a government elected by a majority which very often does not subscribe to Christian beliefs and values. Whether we like it not we are powerless to enforce our will on the rest of society.

“Free health care” means that it is free for those who cannot afford to pay for it…

Tony:

In our “democratic” nation, or rather, “representative” government, our politicians are supposed to, as best they can, represent the majority opinion. And, if we are lied to, they must expect a repeal of whatever actions were enacted due to those lies. And therein lies the problem: oftentimes, such laws are written into structures where “repeal” is impossible. That’s the case with almost all of our “entitlements.” So, we must be, unfortunately, very careful of what we allow into those structures.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

L&L:

Are you proud of “socialist Britain?”

God bless,
jd

 

[LemonAndLime]

L&L:

Are you proud of “socialist Britain?”

God bless,
jd

No, my location is more of a satirical joke about how to non-Europeans my country is labelled as “socialist”. I got that fed up of denying that we are to the point where I thought I should just accept the label and “reclaim” it.

 

[LemonAndLime]

L&L:

I was being flippant, to some extent, but that is the serious question that must be answered, or at least considered. In the US, we’re already being taxed at 27% of gross income, a sizable portion of which is already going to entitlement programs. I don’t know what the tipping point is, but, there is (or, will be) one - especially now that insidious politicians have caused our mortgage foreclosure debacle.

God bless,
jd

When you say 27% of gross income, is that just government taxes?

Currently in the UK, my income is taxed at 20%, and then I pay 11.8% (above minimum income or something like that) towards the NHS.

 

[JDaniel]

No, my location is more of a satirical joke about how to non-Europeans my country is labelled as “socialist”. I got that fed up of denying that we are to the point where I thought I should just accept the label and “reclaim” it.

L&L:

I thought so!

Similarly, I could say, “becoming socialist America!”

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

When you say 27% of gross income, is that just government taxes?

Currently in the UK, my income is taxed at 20%, and then I pay 11.8% (above minimum income or something like that) towards the NHS.

You can look up “tax freedom day” via google. It includes all forms of “taxation,” federal and local.

God bless,
jd

 

[anthony022071]

It’s a slippery slope to the first Christian community in which everyone shared what they had and helped one another.

The first Christian community was the Catholic Church,and they shared goods in common voluntarily because they were closely bound together by their strong faith and evangelical mission and by persecution. Christian charity is not done through government control over people’s property and private affairs.