Catholics VS Health Care in America: Morally Embarrassing

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dmelosi said:
I understand perfectly.

Christianity is losing their battle when so many vote their perceived self interest over morality.
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Abortion is legal irrespective of votes. Voting has nothing to do with it.

Evangelise.
 
dmelosi said:
The elected president determined by votes nominate the judges. And since you keep bringing it up…
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The legality of abortion was determined in a court of law, not by votes in an election. It was not determined by votes from the American citizen.
dmelosi said:
The democratic party platform states how pro abortion/(pro death) they are.
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It is irrelevant.
 
ReapReason said:
The legality of abortion was determined in a court of law, not by votes in an election. It was not determined by votes from the American citizen.

It is irrelevant.
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You are changing the subject from how it came about to how to change it. Why?

The democratic party being the party of abortion/pro death for those most innocent is far from irrelevant.
 
dmelosi said:
The democratic party being the party of abortion/pro death for those most innocent is far from irrelevant.
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I disagree. Many people in the republican party are atheists and are pro death, pro war, pro abortion.

It is bothersome for me to think that a political party tries to politicize religious beliefs. But since we are at it would it be okay then to criminalize all sinful acts such as masturbation, infidelity, etc? Banning abortion alone is not sufficient. Why not cut down to the root of the problem and also focus on BANNING PORNOGRAPHY at once and teach that marriage is not a passport for free habitual, lustful, pleasurable sex. Everyone is called to chastity even marriage couples. This will help reduce abortion rather than politicising abortion alone!
 
RobbyS said:
Many Americans think that something like the British NHS would work here. But Britain is different country, and the lives of its citizens are more closely controlled by the government than they were in many countries behind the Iron curtain were.
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Have you lived here? What evidence can you produce for that absurd assertion?

BTW The fact that we don’t carry guns doesn’t signal a loss of liberty…

A loss of liberty is when you can’t get basic necessities like urgent medical treatment without having to pay for it.
 
je333 said:
I disagree. Many people in the republican party are atheists and are pro death, pro war, pro abortion.

It is bothersome for me to think that a political party tries to politicize religious beliefs. But since we are at it would it be okay then to criminalize all sinful acts such as masturbation, infidelity, etc? Banning abortion alone is not sufficient. Why not cut down to the root of the problem and also focus on BANNING PORNOGRAPHY at once and teach that marriage is not a passport for free habitual, lustful, pleasurable sex. Everyone is called to chastity even marriage couples. This will help reduce abortion rather than politicising abortion alone!
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There is not one person that says that politicizing abortion alone is the answer.

Take a look at the democratic platform on abortion…ontheissues.org/celeb/Democratic_Party_Abortion.htm

Take a look at the republican platform on abortion…ontheissues.org/celeb/Republican_Party_Abortion.htm

It is a shame that so many Catholics claim that killing a human being is a religious belief and not a basic human belief. Those Catholics are married to their party over what is right and wrong.
 
dmelosi said:
It is a shame that so many Catholics claim that killing a human being is a religious belief and not a basic human belief. Those Catholics are married to their party over what is right and wrong.
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It evidently is not a basic human belief that abortion is murder. It is your belief. Murder is illegal because most reasonable people in society can agree that it is not practical or fruitful to civilisation to have people freely murdering people at any given whim; Its besides the fact that most people think its wrong. Nobody wants to be killed, and that is the most relevant fact and is the basic underlying reason why it is illegal in a pluralistic society that is not intrinsically rooted in Catholic law. Such is evident, thus we have a justice system to enforce against it. However it is not self-evident that the act of having an abortion is the same thing as killing a person (in fact it appears otherwise to most non-religious and some religious people), and therefore embryos are not given the same rights as what is commonly understood to be a living person.

Again; you have merely asserted that an embryo is a person. Something tells me that such religiously motivated belief is not going to stand up in court.
 
ReapReason said:
It evidently is not a basic human belief that abortion is murder. It is your belief. Murder is illegal because most reasonable people in society can agree that it is not practical or fruitful to civilisation to have people freely murdering people at any given whim; Its besides the fact that most people think its wrong. Nobody wants to be killed, and that is the most relevant fact and is the basic underlying reason why it is illegal in a pluralistic society. Such is evident, thus we have a justice system to enforce against it. However it is not self-evident that the act of having an abortion is the same thing as killing a person (in fact it appears otherwise to most non-religious and some religious people), and therefore embryos are not given the same rights as what is commonly understood to be a living person.
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I only said it was “legally” considered murder when a mother and unborn baby (person) are murdered. But we have been through that. I said abortion is killing a human being. You seem to be changing the subject again trying to define murder.

I understand why you try to say that killing an unborn person is not the same as killing a born person. The problem is that many who know it is, use your argument to ease their conscience to vote for their own self interest over morality.
 
dmelosi said:
I only said it was “legally” considered murder when a mother and unborn baby (person) are murdered.
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I don’t understand what this has got to do with what I have said in my last post. Abortion is immoral in a Christian context, but not according to the context of secular/legal definitions.
But we have been through that.
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I have been through it, and you have ignored it.
I said abortion is killing a human being. You seem to be changing the subject again trying to define murder.
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I have not changed the subject at all. I have answered all your comments, and showed you why they fail as arguments.
I understand why you try to say that killing an unborn person is not the same as killing a born person.
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Do you really? When did I say that its not the same?
The problem is that many who know it is, use your argument to ease their conscience to vote for their own self interest over morality.
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Interesting conspiracy theory. Like I said, you refuse to believe that some people require genuine evidence of your beliefs concerning the value of embryos in respect of persons.
 
dmelosi said:
It is a shame that so many Catholics claim that killing a human being is a religious belief and not a basic human belief. Those Catholics are married to their party over what is right and wrong.
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You nailed this… Is it safe then to say that Obama.Care! is not a threat to our religious freedom?
 
je333 said:
You nailed this… Is it safe then to say that Obama.Care! is not a threat to our religious freedom?
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Yes, it is afe to say that, as you are neither required to change your stand on human life, and morally you are insulated from the alleged paying for murder by your right intentions in rendering unto Caeser for health care you are already paying for for Congress, etc. And you are also already paying for mnurder by t=paying taxes that support wars that were levied for by the party you feel is against “Obamacare.” So what are you doing? Being picky about the kind of murder you sponsor? Or when you buy things, like say gasoline, or Coca Cola, or anything from Monsanto, or pernaps even Walmart, are you not aware that you are sponsoring conditions that lead either to murder or untimely death? So where is your distinction? To throw the baby our with the bath so you can hone a point about a line you cross many times daily anyway???
 
Gaber said:
Yes, it is afe to say that, as you are neither required to change your stand on human life, and morally you are insulated from the alleged paying for murder by your right intentions in rendering unto Caeser for health care you are already paying for for Congress, etc. And you are also already paying for mnurder by t=paying taxes that support wars that were levied for by the party you feel is against “Obamacare.” So what are you doing? Being picky about the kind of murder you sponsor? Or when you buy things, like say gasoline, or Coca Cola, or anything from Monsanto, or pernaps even Walmart, are you not aware that you are sponsoring conditions that lead either to murder or untimely death? So where is your distinction? To throw the baby our with the bath so you can hone a point about a line you cross many times daily anyway???
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Easing your conscience by trying to dumb down down the fact that there are about 3,700 of these most innocent human beings killed every day of the year in the U.S. Almost 1.5 MILLION a year that you are trying to compare to.

I cannot understand the people married to their party that try to justify this mass killing when they know good and well the evil of it, rather than try to change it.
 
dmelosi said:
Easing your conscience by trying to dumb down down the fact that there are about 3,700 of these most innocent human beings killed every day of the year in the U.S. Almost 1.5 MILLION a year that you are trying to compare to.

I cannot understand the people married to their party that try to justify this mass killing when they know good and well the evil of it, rather than try to change it.
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I’m not easing anyone’s conscience, even mine. I’m just asking why there is a campaiign in this particular dimension when the idea of murder by government and corporation is so readily justified by the sme ones as cry out about one alleged form of it. Are you arguing, then, that because they are not so obvious or in the public eye due to the nature of “news” that they are more acceptable and not part of the same package? In other words, to me it appears that y’all are hacking vigorously away at a branch while allowing the tree to bear its fruit elsewhere. Yes?

And you are, as well, attributing one quality to all members of a group and alleging that some in another don’t support what you are against. Are you emotionalizing to any extent here and allowing your good sense to suffer?
 
Gaber said:
I’m not easing anyone’s conscience, even mine. I’m just asking why there is a campaiign in this particular dimension when the idea of murder by government and corporation is so readily justified by the sme ones as cry out about one alleged form of it. Are you arguing, then, that because they are not so obvious or in the public eye due to the nature of “news” that they are more acceptable and not part of the same package? In other words, to me it appears that y’all are hacking vigorously away at a branch while allowing the tree to bear its fruit elsewhere. Yes?

And you are, as well, attributing one quality to all members of a group and alleging that some in another don’t support what you are against. Are you emotionalizing to any extent here and allowing your good sense to suffer?
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You are trying to cloud the issue of this mass killing of the most innocent human beings so openly promoted by the democratic party.

I am very clearly saying that in our Church’s eyes there is no excuse for any Catholic to promote this as they do by being an apologist for the party they are married to.

I have never said that I am for any war, but in the Catholic point of view, there are times that it is justified.

It is very telling that you say that the government and corporations murder, while you do not say abortion is murder. I know no other way to put it except that easing one’s conscience seems to fit most democrats married to their party.
 
dmelosi said:
You are trying to cloud the issue of this mass killing of the most innocent human beings so openly promoted by the democratic party.

I am very clearly saying that in our Church’s eyes there is no excuse for any Catholic to promote this as they do by being an apologist for the party they are married to.

I have never said that I am for any war, but in the Catholic point of view, there are times that it is justified.

It is very telling that you say that the government and corporations murder, while you do not say abortion is murder. I know no other way to put it except that easing one’s conscience seems to fit most democrats married to their party.
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No. I am asking why you are upset to that degree about one brand of murder while willingly sponsoring others. Or is murder not murder depending on the victim? And legally, while in the Catholic definition it is commonly seen as murder, abortion is not legally defined as murder in our Country. And if you haven’t noticed yet, even in the most blatent of cases, the perpetrator is assigned as having allegedly commited a crime until there is a trial and a verdict of innocent or guilty. Allignment with Catholic doctrine doesn’t change the rules of standard usage and convention in reporting. At least not for me.
 
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