Catholics VS Health Care in America: Morally Embarrassing

[JDaniel]

“With 10.5 million, the U.S. has – by far – the greatest number of millionaire households in the world, despite the financial crisis and ensuing recession which knocked more than 3 million millionaire families off the map between 2006 and 2008.”

Millionaires in the US

When Ronald Reagan took office, in 1980, there were only 1,000 millionaires in the US. Now? 10.5 million, and that number was up to 12.7 million in 2007. It has declined 3,000,000 since the Obama administration.

The rich certainly are not getting richer while the poor get poorer in the United States of America. Just thought I’d point that out. BTW, I’m not one of them; I have little money, but I’m being well taken care of by the “safety net” programs available to all - here.

God bless,
jd

 

[tonyrey]

“With 10.5 million, the U.S. has – by far – the greatest number of millionaire households in the world, despite the financial crisis and ensuing recession which knocked more than 3 million millionaire families off the map between 2006 and 2008.”

Millionaires in the US

When Ronald Reagan took office, in 1980, there were only 1,000 millionaires in the US. Now? 10.5 million, and that number was up to 12.7 million in 2007. It has declined 3,000,000 since the Obama administration.

The rich certainly are not getting richer while the poor get poorer in the United States of America. Just thought I’d point that out. BTW, I’m not one of them; I have little money, but I’m being well taken care of by the “safety net” programs available to all - here.

Thank God for that! Revealing statistics which make you realise who favours big business at the expense of the poor…

 

[Gaber]

Originally Posted by JDaniel
“With 10.5 million, the U.S. has – by far – the greatest number of millionaire households in the world, despite the financial crisis and ensuing recession which knocked more than 3 million millionaire families off the map between 2006 and 2008.”

Millionaires in the US

When Ronald Reagan took office, in 1980, there were only 1,000 millionaires in the US. Now? 10.5 million, and that number was up to 12.7 million in 2007. It has declined 3,000,000 since the Obama administration.

The rich certainly are not getting richer while the poor get poorer in the United States of America. Just thought I’d point that out. BTW, I’m not one of them; I have little money, but I’m being well taken care of by the “safety net” programs available to all - here.

Thank God for that! Revealing statistics which make you realise who favours big business at the expense of the poor…

I’m sorry that I’m not more computer literate, but if you go here you will see that while the millionairs you speak of did indeed disappear, that figure these days being inflationaliy far less significant than in the past, the difference in th rich and poor has been fabulously maginfied in this country. Here is another view.

What is being studiously ignored is that there are two radically different economies at “work” in the world. One is the value added time for labor and service economy. The other is the 24/7/365 paper economy which abstracts and extracts the fruit of value. Adam Smith himself, the fellow who many like to quote about the glories of capitalism, said that in a capitalist system there has to be a mechanism that returns cash to the lowest levels or the system will suck alll wealth to the top.

Add these up and then consider their expotential growth by means of the mechanics of paper vs added value economics:

1. “trickle down,” which doesn’t, because the very monied invest and lobby, those being *far *more profitable than creating jobs r sending them overseas.
2. The deregulation of banks, and speculative investment such as add about 25% to the price of gas
3. and now the unlimited funding corporations can use for political ends that finally demonstrates that we are a plutocracy with a swayable consumer bse, and not even a representative democracy.

All these augmente and excellerate the deterioration of the middle class, ie those “millionairs” you speak of, who in fact are relatively two bit players in today economy. The elevated status that word has is a leftover from when a million dollars meant something, Heck, when I drove a taxi cab I was insured for a million dollars, and any competent financial planner even ten years ago emphasised the need to have about a million stashed away in order to have a relatively middle class retirement. The middle class is the very factor that gives societies stability. Read Jane Jacobs, the contemporary and very higfhly respected city planner and aultural analyst about how vital that is to our Nations and Societies.

The thing is, that unless you water the roots of the tree of Liberty, even at the cost of a percentage of freeloaders, Those freeloaders are no match for the vast sums tax freed corporations receive as welfare, or the very rich save to reinvest in paper not jobs, due to tax breaks. Further, all the cuts in spending remove money from the lowest levels, further stemming the circulation of cash and the spending that would create jobs. So all the drastic measures at savings effect the ones that are near the line of questionalbel survival.

Not that we should, but take away 90% of a billioonair’s fortune, and he is still fabuloulsy rich. Take away 10% of mine, and I’m on the street. But I pay a higher rate than the billionairs and thier corpprtation, as Warren Buffet pointed out. There is even an organization now of millionaris shouting “Tax the rich.” At least they have some sense of what might prevent us from crashing headlong into the third world, as our own National institutions are portraying us dropping from 1st to about 20th among industial nations by many indicators, especvially education.

Heck even Reagan taxed the heck out of the rich, eventually. And just look at the levies laid by the predominantly Republican administration since Reagan, and even the 600,000 jobs lost during Bush’s atrocious terms. We are just barely starting to get them back. Ufortunately you are thankijng God for things not directly attributable to Deific actions, and in analysis, an aftereffect of the travesties of the dubbya and other Republican years. So are you guys leaf polishers, or have you any intersest in keeping the blessed plant alive?

 

[JDaniel]

I’m sorry that I’m not more computer literate, but if you go here you will see that while the millionairs you speak of did indeed disappear, that figure these days being inflationaliy far less significant than in the past, the difference in th rich and poor has been fabulously maginfied in this country. Here is another view.

Gaber:

I have an idea! Let’s take the money from those dirty rotten !&%$&* and divide up between us!

What is being studiously ignored is that there are two radically different economies at “work” in the world. One is the value added time for labor and service economy. The other is the 24/7/365 paper economy which abstracts and extracts the fruit of value. Adam Smith himself, the fellow who many like to quote about the glories of capitalism, said that in a capitalist system there has to be a mechanism that returns cash to the lowest levels or the system will suck alll wealth to the top.

Very true. Wouldn’t it be nice if everyone would simply get paid to produce? And not widgets either! What the heck is a “widget” anyway?

1. “trickle down,” which doesn’t, because the very monied invest and lobby, those being *far *more profitable than creating jobs r sending them overseas.

Of course, we must put an end to this. Maybe the government could help?

1. The deregulation of banks, and speculative investment such as add about 25% to the price of gas

Not to mention the millions of fraudclosures!

1. and now the unlimited funding corporations can use for political ends that finally demonstrates that we are a plutocracy with a swayable consumer bse, and not even a representative democracy.

You can say that again!

All these augmente and excellerate the deterioration of the middle class, ie those “millionairs” you speak of, who in fact are relatively two bit players in today economy.

But, I wouldn’t mind being one of those two bit players.

The elevated status that word has is a leftover from when a million dollars meant something, Heck, when I drove a taxi cab I was insured for a million dollars, and any competent financial planner even ten years ago emphasised the need to have about a million stashed away in order to have a relatively middle class retirement. The middle class is the very factor that gives societies stability.

Well, that, my friend, might be contestable. Read Merleau-Ponty.

The thing is, that unless you water the roots of the tree of Liberty, even at the cost of a percentage of freeloaders,

I’m there bro.

Those freeloaders are no match for the vast sums tax freed corporations receive as welfare, or the very rich save to reinvest in paper not jobs, due to tax breaks.

Funny. I used to own a sizable and profitable company, which by virtue of the 1986 Tax Reform Act, was put out of business. I wish that I had access to those advantages and tax breaks.

Further, all the cuts in spending remove money from the lowest levels, further stemming the circulation of cash and the spending that would create jobs. So all the drastic measures at savings effect the ones that are near the line of questionalbel survival.

There will always be homeless people and there will always be the incorrigibly poor. I know. I’m one of them!

Not that we should, but take away 90% of a billioonair’s fortune, and he is still fabuloulsy rich.

We could take away 99.9% of their fortunes. Then let’s see how they dance.

Take away 10% of mine, and I’m on the street.

Me too, brother!

But I pay a higher rate than the billionairs and thier corpprtation, as Warren Buffet pointed out.

I pay nothing in taxes any more. Took me awhile to work that out, but, with a Little help, I have reached my Nirvana.

There is even an organization now of millionaris shouting “Tax the rich.” At least they have some sense of what might prevent us from crashing headlong into the third world, as our own National institutions are portraying us dropping from 1st to about 20th among industial nations by many indicators, especvially education.

And that will be a nightmare.

Heck even Reagan taxed the heck out of the rich, eventually.

Yep. As I said, the 1986 Tax Reform Act! He was the President then.

And just look at the levies laid by the predominantly Republican administration since Reagan, and even the 600,000 jobs lost during Bush’s atrocious terms.

Well, to be fair, he did take office shortly after 911.

We are just barely starting to get them back. Ufortunately you are thankijng God for things not directly attributable to Deific actions, and in analysis, an aftereffect of the travesties of the dubbya and other Republican years. So are you guys leaf polishers, or have you any intersest in keeping the blessed plant alive?

I’m psyched to produce. I want to earn money. I want to be a millionaire. How far do you think, if we could, taking all of their money would go? Such an action would improve even my life, wouldn’t it?

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Thank God for that! Revealing statistics which make you realise who favours big business at the expense of the poor…

Yessir! I’m one of those who can truly attest to the fact that what God giveth God can also take away, although I have no hard feelings toward him. Actually, I deserved it.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Gaber:

By the way, I think there are way too many paper pushing–non producers in the world today. They’re the ones who have made it impossible for us producers to make money from our produce. I think a lot more people should be forced to join our ranks - including the billionaires. After all, we’re the ones who are making things people need, are we not?

God bless,
jd

 

[Gaber]

Gaber:

By the way, I think there are way too many paper pushing–non producers in the world today. They’re the ones who have made it impossible for us producers to make money from our produce. I think a lot more people should be forced to join our ranks - including the billionaires. After all, we’re the ones who are making things people need, are we not?

God bless,
jd

Yours is a very good idea. Perhaps you have seen the show called Undercover Boss or Undercover Millionaire. The boos of a corporation, or someone very rich, gets put in the rank and file of their own company or of some volunteer grou for the millionaires. It is fascinating to watch the dawning comprehension as they start to get a taste of waht life as a worker or helper is. Similar to going to a foreign land. My eyes were opened a bit on a trip to Central America when I got to go inland and visit people who lived there.

It has also been shown that after baout 259,000 clear a year, having more money does not add substantially to one’s level of happiness.

 

[JDaniel]

Yours is a very good idea. Perhaps you have seen the show called Undercover Boss or Undercover Millionaire. The boss of a corporation, or someone very rich, gets put in the rank and file of their own company or of some volunteer group for the millionaires. It is fascinating to watch the dawning comprehension as they start to get a taste of waht life as a worker or helper is. Similar to going to a foreign land. My eyes were opened a bit on a trip to Central America when I got to go inland and visit people who lived there.

Gaber:

Yes, mine too, when I went to Mexico, then Spain. I saw slightly worse poverty in Spain though.

It has also been shown that after baout 259,000 clear a year, having more money does not add substantially to one’s level of happiness.

Well, I can assure you that I wouldn’t need that much - unless my happiness involved opening many locations and staffing each with good people. Then, it might not be enough. But, for me, alone, while I’d like to have it, I know I don’t have to have it.

God bless,
jd

 

[Gaber]

Gaber:

Yes, mine too, when I went to Mexico, then Spain. I saw slightly worse poverty in Spain though.

Well, I can assure you that I wouldn’t need that much - unless my happiness involved opening many locations and staffing each with good people. Then, it might not be enough. But, for me, alone, while I’d like to have it, I know I don’t have to have it.

God bless,
jd

Yes, The same study showed that people living in poverty also were happy unless they were actually starving or ill. I think, if the basics are met, you make your own happiness. And yes, it is nice to have stuff, like tp and shoes.

 

[tonyrey]

Yessir! I’m one of those who can truly attest to the fact that what God giveth God can also take away, although I have no hard feelings toward him. Actually, I deserved it.

Having encountered the rich in England and the very poor in Africa and India I can assure you the latter are far happier. In a mud hut they’re not weighed down by possessions and they have time for one another. The ragpickers who sleep in the gutter have time for everyone - but with free health care their children wouldn’t die so soon…

 

[Gaber]

Having encountered the rich in England and the very poor in Africa and India I can assure you the latter are far happier. In a mud hut they’re not weighed down by possessions** and they have time for one another**. The ragpickers who sleep in the gutter** have time for everyone **- but with free health care their children wouldn’t die so soon…

My bolds. What a notion. So a sense of something greater than oneself is possible through the activity of connectivity.

 

[tonyrey]

My bolds. What a notion. So a sense of something greater than oneself is possible through the activity of connectivity.

They are aware of others in a way that those who live in comfort and luxury are not - as the correlation of atheism with a high standard of living in Sweden demonstrates…

 

[Gaber]

They are aware of others in a way that those who live in comfort and luxury are not - as the correlation of atheism with a high standard of living in Sweden demonstrates…

Well, you were doing brilliantly up to the Sweden part. Fact is, at one point atheism can be a healthy step away from the anthropomorphism of ordinary faith. From that platform or any other, including religious, for that matter, one can actually delve into what might be a far more productive “spiritual” life.

 

[RobbyS]

Well, you were doing brilliantly up to the Sweden part. Fact is, at one point atheism can be a healthy step away from the anthropomorphism of ordinary faith. From that platform or any other, including religious, for that matter, one can actually delve into what might be a far more productive “spiritual” life.

Speaking of Sweden, I suggest you look at the documentary Homosapiens 1900. The Swedes instituted the same eugenics polices that the Nazis did, including sterilization of the “unfit.” The master race without the militarism. They got away with murder for their collaboration with the Germans. While the rest of Europe --except Sweden–was improverished, the Swedes got rich.

 

[tonyrey]

Speaking of Sweden, I suggest you look at the documentary Homosapiens 1900. The Swedes instituted the same eugenics polices that the Nazis did, including sterilization of the “unfit.” The master race without the militarism. They got away with murder for their collaboration with the Germans. While the rest of Europe --except Sweden–was improverished, the Swedes got rich.

Thank you, Robby, for hammering home the true consequences of materialism - that is supposed to be progress from the “anthropomorphism of ordinary faith” to a far more productive spiritual life. Thank God we’re not at the mercy of the progressives! Catholics would probably be considered “unfit” and put to sleep - painlessly of course…

 

[LumenGent]

LumenGent - I am quite sure you are mistaken. There is no way a 1.5% payroll tax is funding healthcare for everyone in Australia. Healthcare is 17% of GDP in the US. I bet it is lower in Australia but it would have to be more that 10 times lower for a 1.5% payroll tax to fund it. Why would there be the option for private insurance if they have universal healthcare? Something is not adding up here.

Sorry for the late reply, I forgot about this one.

Anyway, No I am not mistaken, the Australian’s have something called the Medicare Levy where every working person pays 1.5% (unless you are a low income earner) of what they earn towards the funding of the Universal healthcare scheme they have in place. You can read about it here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Australia

In 2010, health expenditure was at 9.4% GDP.

aihw.gov.au/publication-detail/?id=10737420435

As for why there is private healthcare, the government is trying to get people to purchase their own healthcare in an attempt to make the Medicare system more accessible to the population who can’t afford private healthcare. The Government is interested in minimizing it’s expenses, and improving the system, that is why they have introduced an additional 1% on the Medicare levy to high earners that can afford to purchase their own private insurance.

 

[Gaber]

Speaking of Sweden, I suggest you look at the documentary Homosapiens 1900. The Swedes instituted the same eugenics polices that the Nazis did, including sterilization of the “unfit.” The master race without the militarism. They got away with murder for their collaboration with the Germans. While the rest of Europe --except Sweden–was improverished, the Swedes got rich.

So did the Americans. If I’m not mistaken, the Rockafellers contributed to the eugenics program, though they were already rich, panzertanks ran on Buick engines, and Shell and others sold them benzine. Go figure, We are talking about today, anyway, as admittedly tragic as what you point out is. One of our favorite sports as humans appears to be killing each other in new and imaginative ways, or old excruciating ways. Pointing out Swedes in this context is relatively useful in a restricted way, but overall doesn’t mean much.

My point is that if someone discovers that their faith has holes in it, or inconsistencies, it may very well be a healthy step to back off and take a look from outside the faith thy are in. Problems aren’t solved from the conditions that generate them.

 

[seanpatrick]

Excellent reply.

I am trying to articulate, for myself, a similar line of thinking/feeling when faced with other folk’s scrupulosity regarding my profession, pharmacy.

I am familiar with Church teachings on contraception. My wife and I do not use artificial contraception. I see the effect that its widespread use has had, and is having, on our world. I am dead set against abortion and the use of abortifacient drugs, which includes many oral contraceptives.

Regarding Catholic pharmacists - and other Catholics - who advocate an absolute “no!” when it comes to handling and dispensing these molecules I say that they are deserters - cowards, perhaps - in this battle. This battle " against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

In the Apostle’s Creed we say of Our Lord, " He descended into Hell."

Our Lord also said, while being nailed to His Cross, " Forgive them Father, they know not what they do. "

Saint Paul wrote, " Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

In 350 A.D., St. Cyril of Jerusalem gave a series of lectures during Easter week to the newly initiated members of the Church. He spoke on the liturgical ceremonies of the three sacraments which they had received during the Easter Vigil. When speaking on Confirmation, he stated:

Just as Christ, after His baptism and the coming upon Him of the Holy Spirit went forth and defeated the adversary, so also with you. After holy Baptism and the Mystical Chrism, having put on the full suit of armor of the Holy Spirit, you are to withstand the power of the adversary, and defeat him, saying, ‘I am able to do all things in Christ, Who strengthens me.’

So I don’t quit my job. I don’t pass-off the handling of certain medications to the “reprobate”. I pray the Rosary every morning, I ask the Holy Spirit to inform me, to Live in me. I ask my Mother in Heaven and my Guardian Angel to remind me that I am always speaking in the presence of God. I say the prayer to Saint Michael. And I ask my Lord and Saviour to Live in me. I frequent Confession and attend Mass and receive the Holy Eucharist as often as possible.

And I remember that God is Love and that his creation is Good. Our original parents were tempted by the snake in the garden. They had a choice - so do we once we know. Adam and Eve knew better because their Father educated them. But He did not make a “safe” garden. He respected our free will too much for that. The garden is still dangerous, no matter where we hide. Worse, actually : it’s a fallen garden now. But it is still Good.

I walk to my dispensary counter and pray for the grace to make clear to my client - in a firm and loving way - exactly WHAT it is he/she is buying, WHAT it really does to his/her body (evidence based medicine), how it has - and can - effect society as a whole and then I LET THEM CHOOSE.

Most make the right choice, ONCE THEY KNOW.

I try to engage “sinners”, being one myself - one trying to emulate his innocent Lord, Who neither ran from nor scorned a repentant sinner. How can you repent - or turn from evil - if you are ignorant? Christ only condemned the sinners - like the Pharisees - who knew the Law, and remained unrepentant.

Nothing irks me more than to be lectured by some fellow parishioner just returned from a “faith cruise” or an “inter-diocese golf classic”, tanned and driving a luxury SUV, about “moral theology”. I think, " How about that investment portfolio? Any money being made from shares in companies perpetuating evil - including companies who make drugs?"

This whole world is awash in sin. We need to meet it. Engage it in - and with - our brothers and sisters. Not abandon them and run for safety. Neither Our Lord nor His Blessed Mother deserted their posts.

 

[aragonjohn1]

Excellent reply.

I am trying to articulate, for myself, a similar line of thinking/feeling when faced with other folk’s scrupulosity regarding my profession, pharmacy.

I am familiar with Church teachings on contraception. My wife and I do not use artificial contraception. I see the effect that its widespread use has had, and is having, on our world. I am dead set against abortion and the use of abortifacient drugs, which includes many oral contraceptives.

Regarding Catholic pharmacists - and other Catholics - who advocate an absolute “no!” when it comes to handling and dispensing these molecules I say that they are deserters - cowards, perhaps - in this battle. This battle " against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

In the Apostle’s Creed we say of Our Lord, " He descended into Hell."

Our Lord also said, while being nailed to His Cross, " Forgive them Father, they know not what they do. "

Saint Paul wrote, " Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

In 350 A.D., St. Cyril of Jerusalem gave a series of lectures during Easter week to the newly initiated members of the Church. He spoke on the liturgical ceremonies of the three sacraments which they had received during the Easter Vigil. When speaking on Confirmation, he stated:

Just as Christ, after His baptism and the coming upon Him of the Holy Spirit went forth and defeated the adversary, so also with you. After holy Baptism and the Mystical Chrism, having put on the full suit of armor of the Holy Spirit, you are to withstand the power of the adversary, and defeat him, saying, ‘I am able to do all things in Christ, Who strengthens me.’

So I don’t quit my job. I don’t pass-off the handling of certain medications to the “reprobate”. I pray the Rosary every morning, I ask the Holy Spirit to inform me, to Live in me. I ask my Mother in Heaven and my Guardian Angel to remind me that I am always speaking in the presence of God. I say the prayer to Saint Michael. And I ask my Lord and Saviour to Live in me. I frequent Confession and attend Mass and receive the Holy Eucharist as often as possible.

And I remember that God is Love and that his creation is Good. Our original parents were tempted by the snake in the garden. They had a choice - so do we once we know. Adam and Eve knew better because their Father educated them. But He did not make a “safe” garden. He respected our free will too much for that. The garden is still dangerous, no matter where we hide. Worse, actually : it’s a fallen garden now. But it is still Good.

I walk to my dispensary counter and pray for the grace to make clear to my client - in a firm and loving way - exactly WHAT it is he/she is buying, WHAT it really does to his/her body (evidence based medicine), how it has - and can - effect society as a whole and then I LET THEM CHOOSE.

Most make the right choice, ONCE THEY KNOW.

I try to engage “sinners”, being one myself - one trying to emulate his innocent Lord, Who neither ran from nor scorned a repentant sinner. How can you repent - or turn from evil - if you are ignorant? Christ only condemned the sinners - like the Pharisees - who knew the Law, and remained unrepentant.

Nothing irks me more than to be lectured by some fellow parishioner just returned from a “faith cruise” or an “inter-diocese golf classic”, tanned and driving a luxury SUV, about “moral theology”. I think, " How about that investment portfolio? Any money being made from shares in companies perpetuating evil - including companies who make drugs?"

This whole world is awash in sin. We need to meet it. Engage it in - and with - our brothers and sisters. Not abandon them and run for safety. Neither Our Lord nor His Blessed Mother deserted their posts.

SHAlom : )

.