Catholics vs Protestants: What is "work"?

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I have tried to understand the main difference between catholics and protestants, regarding justification;
Maybe protestants and catholics doesn’t fit their wording but the meaning is the same;
lets take the example of the crucified thief saved by our Lord;
he repented had faith and prayed to Jesus; that was his work, confession and prayer; he didnt think only without saying anything;doesnt look much as work but may be enough; if we can do more work then is expected from us to do more work, no?
What is “work”? Any expression of our faith?
 
In my experience the terms are often similar, i.e. true faith is one that has good works, etc… Sometimes you will find Protestants who say something like “works are just evidence of saving faith.”

At the heart of the matter, the Protestant aversion to “works” is rooted in the idea that works are something “in addition to” Christ’s saving sacrifice. If that were true, they would be correct to deny the justifying quality of works. However, in Catholic teaching (which of course we believe to be the teaching of divine revelation), works or merit are things done in grace, things done not independent of Christ’s sacrifice, but the extension thereof.

To illustrate, think of the parable of the talents. In the parable, the master gives varying measures of gifts to each of his three servants. In the parable, the gifts are “talents,” or degrees of money. The first two servants later return their talents to the master with a profit. The third servant, however, hid the master’s talent in the ground, essentially squandering the master’s gift. Among the Catholic understandings of this text, the gifts are seen as grace - something from the master’s generosity, a free gift. Thus, the good work the servants do with the gifts are not utilizing “man’s” abilities versus the master’s - but rather the master’s gift flowing through the servant. The one servant refuses his gift - i.e. refuses the grace, essentially denying the works the master called him to do - this rebel servant is cast where there is grinding of teeth.
 
Our works are important also because: The more good things you do in this life, the more you have in Heaven and the closer to Jesus Christ you will be, no?
From protestant point of view, without works mentioned, looks like:“in Heaven all will be equals and have the same authority and treasures” ?
 
In what way is related “work” with the work we are not supposed to do on Sunday?
“work” must be something profitable, somebody somewhere somehow there must be a profit…
 
Ion said:
Our works are important also because: The more good things you do in this life, the more you have in Heaven and the closer to Jesus Christ you will be, no?
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Not necessarily. It depends upon your heart and motivation. Many do wonderful works without love and will be shocked. As Catholics we believe our hearts and minds must be in total gratitude, and what flows are works of love. Faith working through love is what we want.
 
Ion said:
From protestant point of view, without works mentioned, looks like:“in Heaven all will be equals and have the same authority and treasures” ?
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Some Protestants believe those who are more active with their faith will have greater rewards.
 
Ion said:
In what way is related “work” with the work we are not supposed to do on Sunday?
“work” must be something profitable, somebody somewhere somehow there must be a profit…
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Work should be profitable. It should in some way or fashion build you and others for the good. If I am correct, we should avoid unnecessary work on Sundays, especially work that diverts our hearts and minds from the Lord. Works of mercy are encouraged.

Not sure what you mean by “profit.”
 
I believe that much of the opposition to the idea of works stems from the idea of one earning one’s way into heaven. In other words, an atheist can do good works, and many do, but until they understand that without faith in Christ that our works will never be good enough to atone for our sins. Only Jesus could do that for us. It is faith AND works that save us, not either/or.
 
Bizarre. They do not say “to be saved it’s enough to go to church on Sunday” so actually for them the works are sine qua non in faith. If the works are included in faith, then it’s logically that “once saved allways saved” because faith become something streched through the hole life (there are for sure protestant persons that renounced the faith and obvious those persons are not saved thus they didn’t have faith in the beginning).But is bizarre. Well, catholics do not contradict this, “keep the faith and do the good works and you will be saved”. No Indulgence? Protestants do not give money to church???
 
Ion said:
**Our works are important also because: The more good things you do in this life, the more you have in Heaven and the closer to Jesus Christ you will be, no?**From protestant point of view, without works mentioned, looks like:“in Heaven all will be equals and have the same authority and treasures” ?
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I have trouble with this - the more you do in this life, the more you have in Heaven - because it sounds self-motivated (I’m sure you don’t mean it that way). For Lutherans, good works are evidence of a saving faith within - a faith that works through love. But good works are not something we do in order to get more goodies in Heaven. Good works are for the benefit of the “least of His children” here in this world.

Are we, the regenerate, required to do good works? Of course, as that is His command.
Are they necessary for salvation? Yes, in the sense that failure to do good works is sin, and continued, unrepented sin leads to loss of faith.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
I have trouble with this - the more you do in this life, the more you have in Heaven - because it sounds self-motivated (I’m sure you don’t mean it that way). For Lutherans, good works are evidence of a saving faith within - a faith that works through love. But good works are not something we do in order to get more goodies in Heaven. Good works are for the benefit of the “least of His children” here in this world.
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Yes, I read Evangelicals who write about the size of their heavenly crowns. There is a saying, “the road to heaven is heaven”. The more we focus on good works (that is, the more we focus on giving ourselves in love), the more we become conformed to God, and thus the more we begin to experience the very essence of heaven.
Are we, the regenerate, required to do good works? Of course, as that is His command.
Are they necessary for salvation? Yes, in the sense that failure to do good works is sin, and continued, unrepented sin leads to loss of faith.
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I like this formulation.
 
I think this is a good explanation for Justification between Catholics and Protestants (at least Lutherans): christforus.org/Papers/Content/JDDJ.html

In short: Catholics believe justification is a process that is the same as sanctification, while Lutherans (as far as I know–I seem to have forgot much of what I used to know about it :o) believe justification is where God declares a person righteous because of Christ’s Passion and Crucifixion, a different thing from sanctification (a result of being justified).
 
Swiss_Guy said:
I think this is a good explanation for Justification between Catholics and Protestants (at least Lutherans): christforus.org/Papers/Content/JDDJ.html

In short: Catholics believe justification is a process that is the same as sanctification, while Lutherans (as far as I know–I seem to have forgot much of what I used to know about it :o) believe justification is where God declares a person righteous because of Christ’s Passion and Crucifixion,** a different thing from sanctification **(a result of being justified).
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Distinct, but not disconnected.

I do not agree with Preus’s evaluation of the JDDJ.

Jon
 
I see “works” like the result of the momentum of our faith; and this momentum depends on how much we voluntarily choose it to be (but not only on it); with no momentum faith is empty word.
I don’t like the expression “works are the evidence of our faith” because our Lord know us even better than we know ourself. That means that the evidence is for yourself. Again, bizarre.
Protestants make themself a hard life. They acctualy dont know if you really have faith because is streched over the entire life (which didn’t happen) and needs evidence (which didn’t happen).
Judas has fallen in eternal damnation. Our Lord didn’t choose formally one with no faith to do something bad.
 
Protestants believe Faith alone saves them so nothing else is required - Catholics lives should reflect their faith in what they do and how they live their lives and doing all they can for those around us - believers or not.Protestants like to say its dead works but as a Catholic its done in faith and with the Holy Spirit so it is the work of God we seek and do.The only dead works is when its done without Faith and for the glory of one-self.It should always be done for the glory of God and that we are simply tools for God to use and that it is always accomplished by Gods will and the Holy Spirit.
 
coachkfan1 said:
I believe that much of the opposition to the idea of works stems from the idea of one earning one’s way into heaven. In other words, an atheist can do good works, and many do, but until they understand that without faith in Christ that our works will never be good enough to atone for our sins. Only Jesus could do that for us. It is faith AND works that save us, not either/or.
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I think it all started with the indulgences. And over time each individual has their own interpretation of saved by faith alone compared to works being evidence of faith. I don’t know that any denomination has a real stance on the subject. Preachers will preach on the subject but the same preacher may say one thing one day and something opposite on another day. I don’t think it is a very consistent concept in my opinion on part of the protestants.
 
Consider it another way - the Holy Spirit is like a coin with the Fathers head on one side and Jesus on the other ( shall we call it a talent like in the parable ) you can bury it and not use it or you can multiply the benefits of it - the choice is yours.To me Faith alone you are just burying the Talent.
 
PeterGStanley said:
Consider it another way - the Holy Spirit is like a coin with the Fathers head on one side and Jesus on the other ( shall we call it a talent like in the parable ) you can bury it and not use it or you can multiply the benefits of it - the choice is yours.To me Faith alone you are just burying the Talent.
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Luther speaks to the issue of simply “burying the talents”.
“Faith is a divine work in us. It changes us and makes us to be born anew of God (John 1). It kills the old Adam and makes altogether different people, in heart and spirit and mind and powers, and it brings with it the Holy Spirit.

Oh, it is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, this faith. And so it is impossible for it not to do good works incessantly. It does not ask whether there are good works to do, but before the question rises, it has already done them, and is always at the doing of them.

**He who does not these works is a faithless man. **He gropes and looks about after faith and good works and knows neither what faith is nor what good works are, though he talks and talks, with many words about faith and good works.

Faith is a living, daring confidence in God’s grace, so sure and certain that a man would stake his life on it a thousand times. This confidence in God’s grace and knowledge of it makes men glad and bold and happy in dealing with God and all His creatures.

And this is the work of the Holy Spirit in faith. Hence a man is ready and glad, without compulsion, to do good to everyone, to serve everyone, to suffer everything, in love and praise to God, who has shown him this grace.

And thus it is impossible to separate works from faith, quite as impossible as to separate burning and shining from fire. Beware, therefore, of your own false notions and of the idle talkers, who would be wise enough to make decisions about faith and good works, and yet are the greatest fools.

Therefore, pray to God to work faith in you. Else you will remain forever without faith, whatever you think or do.”
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And
Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian.** Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men. **
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Faith alone does not mean we can choose not to do good works. St. James clearly dispells the very thought! Faith alone means that it is by grace through faith only that we access justification, and not by works, as the Apostle Paul regularly tells us.

Jon
 
I know Protestants that use the Faith alone doctrine as an excuse to to nothing. Then says Catholics do dead works when in fact Catholics do works in Faith and with the love of God how else would it be - are these people saying we have no Faith and no love from God?The only dead works are from a Faithless man who does it for his own glory.As a Catholic I believe any good I do comes from God and is to be given to Gods glory not my own. That is were the misconception is - that Catholics do works without the love of God and Faithlessly which is a lie. Our lives should reflect our faith in God and the work of the Holy Spirit in the Good we do in this world - it is not done Faithlessly - its done in full Faith and for the Love of God or it is nothing.
 
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