Catholics vs Protestants: What is "work"?

[JonNC]

=PeterGStanley;9345190]I know Protestants that use the Faith alone doctrine as an excuse to to nothing.

Then they abuse the grace of God!!!
“To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith.” - Luther

Then says Catholics do dead works when in fact Catholics do works in Faith and with the love of God how else would it be - are these people saying we have no Faith and no love from God? As a Catholic I believe any good I do comes from God and is to be given to Gods glory not my own. That is were the misconception is - that Catholics do works without the love of God and Faithlessly which is a lie. Our lives should reflect our faith in God and the work of the Holy Spirit in the Good we do in this world - it is not done Faithlessly - its done in full Faith and for the Love of God or it is nothing.

If they are saying this, they are wrong. I would say that faith without works is equally useless (for our salvation) as works without faith. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Catholics do great works of charity for His sake.

This is what the entire HHS mandate issue is all about. The US Consitution does not say we have freedom of worship, it says we have freedom to exercise our religion. Included in our Christian religion, is the call to help the least of His children, to love our fellow man as we love ourselves. The HHS mandate will restrict Catholics and Lutherans from fullfilling this call of Christ.

Jon

 

[benjohnson]

Then they abuse the grace of God!!!

I agree with this 100%

Faithful works allows me a humble attempt to reflect the grace that God has given me. I expect nothing in return for good works. God has already given this lowly creature everything, including his only Son. I only that I hope that my faith is renewed.

As I understand it Catholics are Justified by Good Works. Lutherans do Good Works as a faithful hope to reflect the Justification God has graced them with.

 

[ahs]

I agree with this 100%

Faithful works allows me a humble attempt to reflect the grace that God has given me. I expect nothing in return for good works. God has already given this lowly creature everything, including his only Son. I only that I hope that my faith is renewed.

As I understand it Catholics are Justified by Good Works. Lutherans do Good Works as a faithful hope to reflect the Justification God has graced them with.

Probably another good point would be to understand the Catholic vs .Protestant definition of justification. I think when it all boils down, all Christians believe we are saved by grace. Where things get wonky is the confusion in justification by faith+works. In other words (in the Catholic view), God’s grace has saved us, redeemed us. He did His part, now we must do ours by having faith and doing the work He has given us to do. Works apart from faith are empty deeds, and faith apart from works is a dead faith. But the faith and works stem from the grace we have received…not the works from faith or the faith from works. (Someone correct me if I am off here!!)

It is in the understanding of this (which I don’t claim to possess) that we see the major difference: Catholics believe we are saved, but can reject that salvation with a refusal to believe or a refusal to do the works. Some (emphasis on SOME) Protestants believe that once you exhibit the Faith part, that you are saved, and the works stem form that faith. If a person has no works, then he never really had Faith to begin with. Catholics don’t believe we are personally able to discern whether a person has/had a true Faith.

 

[JonNC]

=ahs;9346506]Probably another good point would be to understand the Catholic vs .Protestant definition of justification. I think when it all boils down, all Christians believe we are saved by grace. Where things get wonky is the confusion in justification by faith+works. In other words (in the Catholic view), God’s grace has saved us, redeemed us. He did His part, now we must do ours by having faith and doing the work He has given us to do. Works apart from faith are empty deeds, and faith apart from works is a dead faith. But the faith and works stem from the grace we have received…not the works from faith or the faith from works. (Someone correct me if I am off here!!)

We would make this a distinction between justification and sanctification.

It is in the understanding of this (which I don’t claim to possess) that we see the major difference: **Catholics believe we are saved, but can reject that salvation with a refusal to believe or a refusal to do the works. Some (emphasis on SOME) Protestants believe that once you exhibit the Faith part, that you are saved, and the works stem form that faith. ** If a person has no works, then he never really had Faith to begin with. Catholics don’t believe we are personally able to discern whether a person has/had a true Faith.

Well, Lutherans would say that failure to do good works is sin, and continued, unrepented sin can lead to a loss of faith.

Jon

 

[THP]

So JonNC, it seems to me that Lutherans and Catholics are in agreement on this issue. As far as I can tell, you and ahs are saying the same thing. Of course there are thousands of protestant denominations.

 

[JonNC]

So JonNC, it seems to me that Lutherans and Catholics are in agreement on this issue. As far as I can tell, you and ahs are saying the same thing.

Not entirely and completely. There is the issue of infused v. imputed righteousness, which I admit in some ways escapes me. We also express justification and sanctification in different ways, which is part of the issue. OTOH, and speaking only for me, soteriology is not the issue it was. Ecclesiology, however, is a different subject.

EDIT: Just one more thing on this; when Catholics say they are justified by “faith that works through love”, I say Amen. When Catholics say justified by “faith and works”, not so much.

Of course there are thousands of protestant denominations.

And, of course, I can’t speak for different protestant communions anymore than you can for the PNCC, or Old Catholics, as examples. So, between Lutherans and Catholics, we do best to speak for ourselves when in dialogue with each other.

Jon

 

[Ion]

I don’t think that “work” can be included in faith. First, for protestants, their mind function the same like of catholics, so they are only pretending that there is a real difference in how you get it. Now I understand why they baptize after 30, they want to minimize people that renounce church, so looks like o.k. faith is streched over the whole life. But Judas fell in sin, he had faith and lost it, Christ prayed so Peter wouldn’t fall, then we can make with our “work” the same difference, for other people.
Now more bizarre, in Protestant faith you have to include not only your “work” but of other peoples too…
My mind doesn’t “work” like that…

 

[THP]

Not entirely and completely. There is the issue of infused v. imputed righteousness, which I admit in some ways escapes me. We also express justification and sanctification in different ways, which is part of the issue. OTOH, and speaking only for me, soteriology is not the issue it was. Ecclesiology, however, is a different subject.

Hmmmm. . . . off to go get a dictionary.

I’m not really familiar with the terms justification and sanctification and they relate specifically to the issue at hand.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Hmmmm. . . . off to go get a dictionary.

I’m not really familiar with the terms justification and sanctification and they relate specifically to the issue at hand.

They describe our salvation. Catholics view them as the same thing (or part of the same process) while most Protestants view them as separate things.

 

[JonNC]

=Ion;9353796]I don’t think that “work” can be included in faith.

Please explain what you mean by this.

First, for protestants, their mind function the same like of catholics, so they are only pretending that there is a real difference in how you get it.

Who is pretending about it?

Now I understand why they baptize after 30, they want to minimize people that renounce church, so looks like o.k. faith is streched over the whole life. But Judas fell in sin, he had faith and lost it, Christ prayed so Peter wouldn’t fall, then we can make with our “work” the same difference, for other people.

I was baptized a month and a day after I was born.

Now more bizarre, in Protestant faith you have to include not only your “work” but of other peoples too…
My mind doesn’t “work” like that…

I’m unclear what you mean by this, as well.

Jon

 

[Ion]

I was wondering about Luther’s dogma “saved by the faith”; doesn’t look to take in consideration people’s mind: our minds work in the same way with the same categories, catholic or protestant. Personally I can’t imagine faith as Luther says and I doubt anybody really can.