Catholics: What do you think is the one good (best) thing resulting from the "reformation"

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rwoehmke said:
Other than that there is little doubt that the reformation really screwed up many lives both then and now.
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In fairness, the same could be said about Catholicism…but due to its larger size, more lives have likely been screwed up.
 
distracted said:
yes, but i don’t believe the entire Church was corrupt… In fact, i know it wasn’t… As alwyas, thoruhgout history, it was only a few men who were corrupt… and if those men were in high places, it was disastrous… but the “average” Catholic will always, if no one else, be the ones who keep the Church holy… and onward-marching.
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You’re right. There was a legitmate reform movement afoot within the Church before the Reformation. For this reason, the Catholic reaction can be called, academically speaking, either the Counter-Reformation or Catholic Reformation. I’ll always believe it was a combination of the two.🙂
 
My ‘summer of conversion’ to History happened in 1978, in college, when I took two classes that hooked me into the discipline – Reformation and Latin America in the 20th Century. I encountered the story of two guys who would change my life in major ways, henceforth – Luther and Che Guevara.👍
 
onetimeposter said:
It seems to me that Protestants are not ignorant, rather the protestants focus on a personal relationship with Christ, rather than the Catholic view of an institutional relationship with Christ.
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True enough, but Protestants do tend to have ‘issues’ with history. They don’t like studying the history of the formation of the Bible, for example, because it threatens their literal interpretation logic. They also don’t like Luther anymore, because of his being ‘outted’ as a virulent anti-Semite in modern times. He’s now a very politically incorrect figure. They also don’t like to study his theological reasoning, especially that regarding ‘sola scriptura’. The problem is that while Luther preached ‘sola scriptura’, big time, he neither believed in it completely nor practiced it. He hated the Book of James because it offset Paul’s emphasis on salvation by faith alone. Accordingly, he ignored and even maligned the Book of James. Now…how can anyone espousing hardcore belief in ‘sola scriptura’, in the same breath, condemn certain parts of ‘scriptura’.

Much of Luther’s thinking was obviously illogical. Erasmus of Rotterdam proved this publicly when he engaged Luther in a written polemic in the 1530s. The issue that exposed Luther’s circular reasoning the most was predestination. Luther had always made a huge deal over what he called, 'the theology of the cross’, meaning the primacy of the salvific and redemptive nature of Christ’s crucifixion in everything Christian. When forced to admit publicly, under pressure from Erasmus, that he also believed in predestination, as opposed to free will, Luther undermined his own logic behind his ‘theology of the Cross’. When Erasmus asked why The Cross was even necessary if God already knew who was saved and who wasn’t, Luther vanished, and ended the polemic with silence. That was the first public debate he had lost since rebelling against the Church. Because the Reformation was in full swing by then, no one really paid attention, and it had no impact on anything, other than to show Luther was illogical.
 
rwoehmke said:
What may have changed is that the first generation or so of protestants would have been formal heretics, whereas generations that followed would not have known any better. I think the term might be “material heretics.” Pure off the top of my skull speculation. 🤷
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You are correct.
 
As I do not believe that it is proper to do EVIL to DO GOOD my answer is that no good came from the “reformation”. Division is never a good thing. Some things might appear to be good yet the evil of the break IMHO outweighs this so called good.
 
palmas85 said:
The best thing that came out of the Reformation?:hmmm:

Let me think

I’ve got it Christian unity:extrahappy:

No, sorry my mistake on that one

hum,

I know, increased belief in the Real Presence:thumbsup:

Whoops wrong on that one too, gee this is tough.

I know, I’ve got it

More devotion to the Blessed Mother and the Saints:dancing:

What, wrong again???:confused:

Hold on a minute, I’ll get it, I know there must be something good that came out of it

There must be, there has to be

But you know for the life of me I can’t think of anything except they stopped the outright sale of indulgences.

So I guess that was the best thing, heck the only good thing that came out of it.
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Somehow, I can’t credit Luther with emphasizing His Mercy - I was “married” to a Missouri Synod Lutheran for a number of years. Yes, abuses that were occurring in the Church abated or went protestant. Anything else was the working of Him who turns all things to the Good for those who love Him.
 
rwoehmke said:
In my opinion two good things resulted. First of all people became more conscious about their loyalty and attachment to a particular Faith whether Catholic or Non-Catholic.
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i don’t quite get what you mean…
Secondly I think that many of us, certainly not all, owe a debt of gratitude to protestantism for an increased emphasis on knowing God and having a relationship as opposed to “knowing about God.” Other than that there is little doubt that the reformation really screwed up many lives both then and now.
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I know God far better now that i am fully Catholic than ever before… When i was “lost”… out there, just “mucking around” (as i see it now)… going to this church or that … sometimes the Cahtolic, sometimes not… I “knew of God” but didn’t know him… With the Real Presence of Christ, i now KNOW Him… & He knows me… (i say that last line because @ Judgment Jesus says to some “Away form me, i never knew you.”
 
palmas85 said:
The best thing that came out of the Reformation?:hmmm:

Let me think

I’ve got it Christian unity:extrahappy:

No, sorry my mistake on that one

hum,

There must be, there has to be

But you know for the life of me I can’t think of anything except they stopped the outright sale of indulgences.

.
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actually, it is my understanding that there were few (if any?) people “selling indulgences”… so it wasn’t like the whole Church was corrupt on that point… but you know Protestant historians are… Yikes… can’t be trusted to tell the truth when it comes to Catholicism… :rolleyes:
 
Luther. Ordained a priest in 1507, and in 1525 he marries a nun who was 8 years old the day he took his priestly vows.

What a guy. He rants against wrongdoing, then discards his vows to satisfy Lust.

“Oh, wait, he does have some redeeming qualities !”

uh-huh.

“Jerry Lee” Luther. Greats Balls of Fire !
 
I_Believe said:
Luther. Ordained a priest in 1507, and in 1525 he marries a nun who was 8 years old the day he took his priestly vows.

What a guy. He rants against wrongdoing, then discards his vows to satisfy Lust.

“Oh, wait, he does have some redeeming qualities !”

uh-huh.
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You should read his diatribes against the Jews. :o
 
KingAlfred said:
You should his diatribes against the Jews. :o
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You mean read his diatribes ? Heh, I get to glance at his venom posted on the doors of the dorm rooms at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Some students there seem to take delight in quoting him on the anti - catholic fliers they proudly tape to their dorm doors. My job requires me to walk the halls of the dorms there, making deliveries. I’ve taken my camera with me the last few times. 😉

So much for false ecumenism. :rolleyes:
 
distracted said:
no thanks… his rantings against Catholics, particularly the pope :eek: are disgusting enough…
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The fliers I mentioned in post #35 usually quote Luther regarding the papacy. I feel like knocking on the door and asking them what they are doing hanging out with baptists if Luther is such a great influence on them. 🤷
 
Luther originally pointed out many aspects of the corruption within the Church. He was correct in doing this. Unfortunately, he ended up inventing his own religion.

Because the Church is made up of humans, there will always be situations that need reforming, but not inventing new theologies.

Today, the Church is filled with Modernists. I believe this is another problem that needs addressing. It seems that many of the popes agree with me (pre-Vatican ll popes).
 
The best thing?

No let us say the lest worst thing.

More people to fight and burn.
 
onetimeposter said:
An understanding that salvation is dependent upon God and not meeting institutional requirements.
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Sorry but this did not come from Luther. The Catholic Church has taught this from time imemorial. However, there were elements in the church who did not know this so believed that they can earn salvation. Which to an extent is true because we ahve to co-operate with God’s grace to be saved.

I have heard it mentioned that Luther said he could commit adultery many times and still consider himself saved. Hmmm. Not sure Christ would agree with him. The publican went away justified because in humility, he acknowledged his sin.

The belief of working out your salvation is not without its biblical background either. Consider the passage about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked etc. And Christ says that those who do not do these will be sent to hell where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There really is nothing that Luther has done that I could say is good at all. Even during his time the counter reformation within the Church was already working towards reformation. God raises up saints for the times.

Now, if he had been more humble, then there would have been reformation. As it is there was only deformation.

When you come to think that he has succeeding in hacking the mystical body of Christ to pieces, (which none of the heretics before him accomplished) I can’t say there is any good in that. It’s like saying it’s great that Adam fell.

Aah but then again, we sing the Exultet and acclaim O Felix Culpa.

So there must be some good that would have arisen out of it, not because but in spite of Luther, et al.
 
distracted said:
i feel that the best thing about what martin luther did was he got people to focus on the mercy of God - and not so much on His justice… which none of us can pass through (St. Faustina…). Of course, he went too far… (as far as the erroneous concept of Once Saved Always Saved) but Protestants in the years since have had a lot of time to correct many of his errors…

and have to some extent…
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The Counter-reformation.
 
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