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Catholics: What is your opinion of why we do not have enough Priests?
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djeter
Guest
Lots of good opinions on schools, families, demographics but as a recent convert I tend to see the Church against the background of the modern condition.
I would offer an essay another convert, RR Reno, wrote back in 2003 where he related the ancient “noonday demon” acedia to our modern secular condition: “We take care of ourselves, virtuously avoiding pain, rewarding ourselves with pleasure. Thanks to this thorough cultural training, we often approach the church with the same self-protective posture.”
It’s an interesting essay and when you glance through these selections from it I think you will see how difficult it is for the Church to navigate its way through this fallen world and the challenges to the priesthood become obvious. Not to detract from any of the excellent reasons offered thus far, but sometimes an insightful essay like this one reveals some of the deeper structures in our culture that attack the Church.
*"We must recognize how contemporary moral sensibilities tempt us toward acedia. Our vague and general moral sentiments – “suffering is evil” – overwhelm our immediate duties and corrupt our ability to function within the complexities of ordinary moral relations. As Judith Shklar wrote, “To hate cruelty more than any other evil involves a radical rejection of both religious and political conventions. It dooms me to a life of skepticism, indecision, disgust, and often misanthropy.” *
An eye-opening look at our contemporary moral sensibilites and how they lead us away from the Church and strike at the young who would enter the priesthood and religious vocations.
dj
You can find it all here:
payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/11/20/reading-selections-from-fighting-the-noonday-devil-by-r-r-reno/
I would offer an essay another convert, RR Reno, wrote back in 2003 where he related the ancient “noonday demon” acedia to our modern secular condition: “We take care of ourselves, virtuously avoiding pain, rewarding ourselves with pleasure. Thanks to this thorough cultural training, we often approach the church with the same self-protective posture.”
It’s an interesting essay and when you glance through these selections from it I think you will see how difficult it is for the Church to navigate its way through this fallen world and the challenges to the priesthood become obvious. Not to detract from any of the excellent reasons offered thus far, but sometimes an insightful essay like this one reveals some of the deeper structures in our culture that attack the Church.
*"We must recognize how contemporary moral sensibilities tempt us toward acedia. Our vague and general moral sentiments – “suffering is evil” – overwhelm our immediate duties and corrupt our ability to function within the complexities of ordinary moral relations. As Judith Shklar wrote, “To hate cruelty more than any other evil involves a radical rejection of both religious and political conventions. It dooms me to a life of skepticism, indecision, disgust, and often misanthropy.” *
An eye-opening look at our contemporary moral sensibilites and how they lead us away from the Church and strike at the young who would enter the priesthood and religious vocations.
dj
You can find it all here:
payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/11/20/reading-selections-from-fighting-the-noonday-devil-by-r-r-reno/
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Combining two posts, here’s my :twocents:
(Some of us were particularly appalled to see this concept played out on another thread recently.)
Not to mention, the noise of our culture and constant level of activity & stimulation discourages reflection (not to mention prayer!). How can you “hear a call” if you never allow yourself to listen?
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Beautiful
Guest
Can you identify that thread here and did you read my previous post #36 on this thread?
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JReducation
Guest
Not only is the priesthood not a career, but it can be combined with other vocations such as the married vocation, as is the case in the Eastern Church or religious vocation as is the case in both the Eastern and Western Churches. Men who are called to be priests can all be called to the married or the religious lives, depending on where they are
In addition, it is important for everyone to realize that the parish, while it is the basic unit of Church life, is often not the target ministry of religious communities. Therefore, priests who are religious may never see the inside of a parish. I can provide several examples.
- In the monastic traditions there are monks who are also priests. They never leave their monastery to take on parishes, with the exception of some Benedictines.
- In the mendicant traditions there are friars who are both brothers and priests. But with the exception of the Carmelites, Dominicans and Augustinians, most mendicants spend their lives in social ministries such as the homeless, youth, sick, and other people with special needs. In addition, many of these communities are also very involved in the missions, retreat ministry, confession ministry, education, and other ministries to their own members. I’m thinking of the superior general of our community. He is both a priest and a brother. Prior to his election as superior general, he had spent more than 20 years doring vocation recruitment and formation work in our house of studies. He has never been in a parish. He jokes because he says that he can count the number of times that he has heard confessions. He has never baptized anyone, witnessed a marriage and the only dead that he has burried are our own brothers He has rarely preached to the laity, since he was always assigned to a formation house. The times that he went out to a parish was on our “rent a priest program” where parishes call and ask if they can rent one of our friars to help them on a weekend.
- Then you have secular institutes such as the Opus Dei and many others. These rarely run parishes. Most of their time and energy is taken up with keeping the organization up and running and promoting the work and spirit of the institute.
- Secular Societies of priests such as the Maryknoll do not run parishes
The point is that the priesthood is not a career, it is a call to enter into the priesthood of Jesus Christ and just like Christ’s life took him in many directions, so does the life of today’s priest. The laity also has to stop complaining about the shortage of priests and start doing something inside the family to allow God’s grace to flow through to their children. It’s often too easy to complain, but not promote the priesthood in your home to your children and grandchildren. The laity also has to understand that the call to be a priest does not guarrantee that you will have more priests in the parishes. God can call priests to serve in many different areas of the Church.
I believe that we have a tendency to be self-focussed, that is, to be focussed on our needs at the parish and not focussed on the bigger picture. There are many things that need to be done in the Church and they are n ot all parish work. Just a simple example, you can’t run a diocese without good administrators and good officers in different positions. These are going to be priests. This means that they are going to be called out of parish life.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Beautiful, I’ll respond later in a PM.
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Montalo
Guest
Brother JR
what is the FSSP considered, and what do you mean by secular society of priests?
also, who are the jesuits?
what is the FSSP considered, and what do you mean by secular society of priests?
also, who are the jesuits?
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JReducation
Guest
The FSSP are a society of secular priests. They are not consecrated men. The Jesuits is the short name for the Society of Jesus founded by St. Ignatius of Loyola. They are religious. Therefore, they are consecrated men. They are a society of clerks regular. Clerk = cleric and regular = those who live by a rule (religious). The Jesuits are the second largest religious community in the world. The Franciscans are the largest.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Beautiful
Guest
Thanks Elizabeth
Getting back to the new “lay ecclesial ministery”……I have a strong feeling that regular lay people in the Church have an unspoken suspicion and distrust of this new liaison between them and their priests and Bishops.
The description (page 11) of the ecclesial service in Coworkers in the Vineyard of the Lord helps build the idea that our shepherds are no longer shepherding as much hiring out labor. The church appears to be layering itself like big bureaucratic government. Something tells me this isn’t what Christ intended for His Church.
usccb.org/laity/laymin/co-workers.pdf
So with this new redistribution of authorization and leadership why would any man want to step in the waters and try to catch fish?
Close mutual collaboration between lay ecclesial and priests can’t replace the essential hands on approach that priests are really called to live.
In a sense – the priesthood is being muted by a lay ecclesial movement just as condoms prevent conception.
there…my :twocents:
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Joannm
Guest
I wasn’t going to reply until I read you last sentance. I find your compairing LEMs to condoms quite uncalled for. I am a lay ecclesial minister, a Pastoral Associate in a parish of 3,000 families. I do not see how my ministering in the parish does anything but give our priests the freedom to truly do their work as spiritual leaders. All the pastors I have worked for see what I do as essential, as well as the work of other lay people in leadership roles in the parishes. Parish life has become so much more complex and so much is being demanded of our priests. Without the help of the laity, especially full time LEMs working in parishes and diocesan positions, our priests would be burning out at alarming rates. I work in a pairsh with 5 priests at the present time and I still have a ton of work that I do (along with the other LEMs in the parish). All our priests depend on us and appreciate all we do. We do not prevent vocations, in fact, we are working with young people and often are the ones encouraging boys and girls to consider a vocation.
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JReducation
Guest
Just a quick insert here. The “lay ministers” also include religious men and women. My community staffs a parish where there are four brothers, but only one brother is ordained. The three remaining brothers serve in different capacities.
Bro. 1: is the superior (not a priest)
Bro 2: is the pastoral administrator of the parish (not a priest)
Bro 3: is the pastoral vicar (priest)
Bro 4: is the resident theologian (not a priest and works in the parish about 15 hours a week)
The reason I mention this is because parishes are not the only thing that are being restructured, so are religious communities of men.
I know of another parish of three diocesan priests, five deacons, three lay ministers and one religious brother (me
).There are different arrangements that work, but they are not suppressing vocations to the priesthood. I don’t think that they are. Just my two cents.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Margeret:
Well said. A priest at my Anglican-Catholic parish has been debilitated during the last 6 months, and can’t make it to the church. His orders were through the Polish National Catholic Church (As we most of the Orders of the Priests & Bishops of the TAC - This was verified by then Cardinal Ratzinger during the negotiations in mid 2004, over 5 years ago).
This priest told me he wasn’t saying Mass, because he needed a dispensation from his Bishop to say Mass in private away from the church, and he felt he shouldn’t ask for that permission if there were ANY chance that he could recover enough to make it to the church to say Mass there.
Please remember he didn’t have regular INVALID Anglican Orders (Yes, I’ve read Apostolicae Curae, and you probably should, too), so he could say a Valid Mass (like any PNCC Priest or other priest whose Orders are Valid). This means his Masses could have an effect on this world and the next. Needless to say, I STRONGLY URGED this priest to get this Dispensation and to start saying Mass for himself, me, his parish, his community and for our country. I reminded him that because he was a priest, that even locked up inside his room, he could do more good for all of us just by saying Mass than most of us could ever hope to do with all of our Good Works and Political Activism put together…
The same is true for any priest, and we need to teach it. We need to teach that the closest we’ll ever get to Heaven while we’re here on earth isn’t in a woman’s or a man’s arms, but when we attend and participate in the Divine Liturgy, the Holy Eucharist, where Earth is taken up into Heaven. I know our Music & our Language may not reflect that, and most of us don’t treat it that way, but that’s really what happens. We’re either brought up to worship with the Angels and Saints, or they come down to worship with us. And, This happens whether the Eucharist is a Solemn High Mass celebrated by the Pope & 20 Bishops in front of 100,000 at St Peter’s or a single priest by himself in a dingy room in Los Angeles.
Here’s my bonus added 2 cents - Let’s treat the Diaconate with the Dignity the position deserves - Let’s insist that parishes provide Deacons to distribute the Blessed Blood of our Lord Jesus when the Faithful receive under both Species. Let’s insist that, instead of allowing the “vesting” of more Extraordinary (but not really, because they’re not treated that way) Ministers of the Holy Eucharist, that MORE MALE Deacons be ordained. Let’s also insist that parishes stop actively recruiting female “Alter Servers”. Young Men serving as Acolytes used to be how vocations were fostered - It was said, “The Acolyte’s Guild was the Greenhouse for the Priesthood.” The proof of that is what happened when the only men near the alter in most parishes where the priests… Encourage & Recruit boys & young men between the ages of 11 to 18 to serve as Acolytes (& ages 18-30 to serve as Lectors). Have them form a Guild, study the Mass & Scriptures together. I guarantee you that, as long as their parents don’t hinder them, more of them will volunteer for discernment…
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Kage Ar:
The priest I spoke about in a previous post used to be Physicians Assistant (He’s a LATE Vocation) who cared for AIDS Patients for 17 years until he retired in 1999. When he started, the disease was called GRID, and he lost 5-7 patients a week. A GP asked him how he did it, He replied, “I know I’m going to see them again.” 30 of the patients were at his ordination in Nov., 2003, including one whom I would have to describe as a near miracle.
One of his patients accepted the Lord in one of the big churches in the Valley. The Pastor refused to baptize him because he had AIDS. He was baptized and confirmed at St. Mary’s and accepted as a regular communicant. He died a couple years later, a faithful Christian - His ashes are interred near the High Alter (we could say he’s still a regular communicant).
NO, This priest isn’t in it for the money. He became a priest so he could serve.
If you offer $75 K, what you’ll get will be people who be in it for the money - People who won’t wake up at 3 am to make emergency sick calls on those who are dying, people who won’t risk their lives to go into the battle zone to bring soldiers and civilians alike the Sacraments of the Church and the Healing Power of the Love & Mercy of God. You’ll get people who’ll see things as worldly people do, because they won’t really believe that Jesus Christ is God the Son, Risen from the Dead and Ascended into Heaven to sit at the Right-Hand of God the Father Almighty until He comes in Glory to judge the living and the dead.
If that’s what you want, don’t let me stop you. But I believe we can get the priests we need without resorting to such “Bribery”.
Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
JoanNM:
The Anglican-Catholic Parish I’m a member of has 2 priests (+ the one I’ve mentioned) & 2 deacons serving a congregation of 200-250 people. We have a Bookkeeper, 5-person Vestry, Alter Guild and a Kitchen Crew which prepares the lunch most of the members stay for after Mass on Sundays. I don’t think anyone except the clergy & the bookkeeper received special training for their positions, & I don’t think anyone would want to call themselves Lay Ecclesial Ministers.
Now, the Diocese hasn’t had a Seminary in at least 4 years, and the man who ran the last one (he founded a local college in the 1960’s) died last month after a prolonged bout with Parkinson’s. That hasn’t stopped Vocations - Priests have gotten Seminary training online, including from a CATHOLIC Seminary Fr. Fessio found for me. That means even Mission Parishes with 30 members have a priest.
I really believed that, if parishes prayed weekly for Vocations, included prayers for Vocations in their Bulletins, Websites & literature Racks, had Novenas for Vocations, and created scholarships so men from those parishes (or other poor parishes) could go to Seminary (the Maronites do that now through their men’s organizations).
I’m not going to name names, but what’s going to happen to Vocations when Seminaries purposely EXCLUDE those candidates who give the following answers to the following questions:
A: Jesus’ birth was miraculous, as He was born of a VIRGIN, Mary, who was physically a Virgin from her birth until her death - Mary was declared the “Ever-Virgin Mother of God” by the Council of Ephesus.
Q. Describe the manner of Jesus’ birth & the sexuality of MARY, Jesus’ mother & Joseph’s wife
A: Jesus is true God, consubstantial with the Father, and true man, receiving his manhood from from the ever-Virgin Mary.
Q. Briefly describe who Jesus is.
A: He physically rose from the dead as witnessed by the Apostles & His Disciples & explained by Scripture and in the Creeds.
Q: How do you explain Jesus’ disappearance from the tomb?
I could list more, but these should be sufficient to give the general idea. The Seminaries which exclude candidate who give the answers noted above tend to be EMPTY. Those who actively recruit them tend to be FULL and have Waiting Lists. The problem is we still have too many of the former and not enough of the later…
As that situation changes, you’ll see more priests. Remember who your enemy is, and what weapons you have to use against this Liar and Father of Lies, and we’ll do OK. Remember, “The Gates of hell will not stand,” means the Church has to MARCH INTO BATTLE!
Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
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Beautiful
Guest
I tried to draw a picture of lay ecclesiastes being similar to contraception rather than facilitator.
Your acronym for lay ecclesiastic minister reminds me of Lunar Exploration Module. I think…in my diocese anyway…these LEMS are being used similarly. LEMs are being used for exploration as lay homilists and authoritative women religious assuming roles that traditionally belonged to the parish priest.
So the role of priest is being eroded…it is slipping away from tangibility…his complete persona is becoming an enigma.
Anyway thanks for your insight.
J
JReducation
Guest
I think, for the sake of this discussion, that we clarify what the Church has always believed to be the role of the deacon and priest. Those have always been the celebration of the sacraments, preaching at mass, blessing, burrying the dead, and keeping the faith alive and in communion with the local bishop. All other roles or jobs that deacons and priests take on are a result of the intitutionalization of parishes. I’m not saying that this is a bad thing. I’m just saying that it’s not historically part of the role of the clergy. The parish as we know it today is only about 150 years old.
Many of the works of mercy and education that are done in parishes today were usually taken care of by religious, not by parishes. Religious were not attached to the parishes, especially women religious. Bishops began to incorporate them into parish life in the 1800s in the USA, because of a need to serve immigrants. With the absence of religious in the parishes, these needs still need to be addressed and they are taken over by lay ministers or staff.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Many of the works of mercy and education that are done in parishes today were usually taken care of by religious, not by parishes. Religious were not attached to the parishes, especially women religious. Bishops began to incorporate them into parish life in the 1800s in the USA, because of a need to serve immigrants. With the absence of religious in the parishes, these needs still need to be addressed and they are taken over by lay ministers or staff.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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peary
Guest
Same thing as to why there is a lack of vocations in women religious orders - when you make your bed with the Devil, all Hell breaks loose. 
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JReducation
Guest
I wish that it were that simple. But it’s not. There is also the issue of many options that present themselves to young men. In addition, there is the secularization of society. I’m not speaking of secular as opposed to religious. I’m speaking of a value system.Same thing as to why there is a lack of vocations in women religious orders - when you make your bed with the Devil, all Hell breaks loose.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Beautiful
Guest
A while back I found a vintage LIFE magazine from the sixties that described how lay people were getting restless in the pews as homilies seemed to have less and less meaning to them. The article went on to explain how increased availability of education to common folk was causing a gradient of satisfaction and knowledge. This article was dated 35-40 years ago.I wish that it were that simple. But it’s not. There is also the issue of many options that present themselves to young men. In addition, there is the secularization of society. I’m not speaking of secular as opposed to religious. I’m speaking of a value system.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Back in the 60s and 70s I always thought my parents had an impressive collection of spiritual books. Comparatively today, my collection and access to information is astounding.
We live in an over discerning and nitpicking culture that wants to be entertained and stimulated in secular ways which really have nothing to do with holiness. The lay ecclesial movement which is changing the face of the Catholic Church is mitered with secularization which undertows the priesthood rather than hold it in its rightful place. I see this played out time and again in individuals who really mean well but who really should be considered part of the listening flock rather than leaders with authority trying to manage spouses, households and other domestic concerns along with pastoral concerns of the church. In some cases it appears they are doing good but I don’t buy ‘cause I know first hand what it really takes to be a married layperson with a family.
It comes down to the fact that there are different vocation callings in life. Lay people these days like to think they are jacks of all trades and are unwilling to sit tight in the pews and be lead and fed by priests. Men today know this and don’t want to deal with dissatisfaction from the flock.
I think that wherever you see LEMs taking over the flock there is a bishop who was willing to give up his authority and figure as male, leader and spiritual guide. He no longer believes that a few can feed the thousands. He no longer believes in Jesus and the Apostolic Church.
What secularization in the Church has created is a ‘too many chiefs and not enough Indians’ situation.
Secularization – education has created chiefs of us all.
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peary
Guest
And how did that encourage and develop their Faith?
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