Catholics who know history: please answer

[DebChris]

What has not been mentioned on this thread is the written Word of God came after Tradition. Tradition (Capital T) is that collection of teachings that the Apostles preached about who Jesus truly was.
The Word of God did not come from heaven in the form of a book. The Word of God came to earth in the form of a man.

CCC81 “Sacred Sripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”
“And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the Apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture communicate with one another and are honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reference.

I just found this on the Ask an Apologist Thread and it seems to fit with our discussion:
… The Catholic Church is the tree Christ planted. Other Christian groups are leaves and branches that have fallen from that original tree.

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[DebChris]

I found this on the Ask the Apologist thread regarding Christian denominations.
… The Catholic Church is the tree Christ planted. Other Christian groups are leaves and branches that have fallen from that original tree.

 

[rinnie]

Here is the way I see it, and the easiest way to explain it. Luther was a Catholic, and had a very good understanding of the faith. But then something happend to him, did the devil get to him? Look at Judas the devil got to him. Or was Judas evil from the start? Same with Luther was he true to the Church and like Judas gave in to the devil? Who knows really? But the Point is and to me this is the POINT Luther turned away from the Church that Peter Started. Luther did do that, Judas turned away from the church (Jesus) and yes there are many who have done this in the past and will continue to do this to date. But Did Jesus not warn us, Jesus said the Devil is the Master of disguise. But he did also say his church would prevail.

And it has and does today. But getting back to what is important and what is really important is US. What are we going to do follow the Church that Peter started or someone else. The Church that Peter started is the RCC and is the Church Christ promised us would have the fullness of the truth.

It is here today for all who want to follow it. Who really cares about what mistakes happened in the past. Isnt it time to move on to the future and go to the Church that Jesus had Peter to start. If God promised us it would prevail, and to not stray away from it, and the Apostles preached that what more is there to say?

We must have the sacraments God has left for us, and you will not find them anywhere else but the Catholic Church. That cannot be denied. Why is that? Why do other Church’s not have the sacraments?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

What has not been mentioned on this thread is the written Word of God came after Tradition. Tradition (Capital T) is that collection of teachings that the Apostles preached about who Jesus truly was.
The Word of God did not come from heaven in the form of a book. The Word of God came to earth in the form of a man.

CCC81 “Sacred Sripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”
“And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the Apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture communicate with one another and are honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reference.

I just found this on the Ask an Apologist Thread and it seems to fit with our discussion:
… The Catholic Church is the tree Christ planted. Other Christian groups are leaves and branches that have fallen from that original tree.

**Hi Deb,
I agreed with most of what you said. It had all been said before of course. The part i kind of disagreed with is “… The Catholic Church is the tree Christ planted. Other Christian groups are leaves and branches that have fallen from that original tree”.

I rather think of the Protestant denominations as hidiously distorted, cancerous growths! Weeds if you would, attempting to destroy the tree that Jesus planted, attempting to choke it and actually attempting to replace it!

They will loss of course. I just pray that the good people in these corrupt religions don’t loss their eternal souls by being foolish and following false preachers and doctrines.

God Bless**

 

[Hisalone]

**Hi Hisalone, **
**Actually that would depend on what you “think” scripture says about the doctrine of salvation. The Catholic church might interpret it differently then you do, but that is our right! criptures belong to the real church of Jesus! **

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God Bless!

The Catholic Church has no right to change or to superceed scripture. Kinda what Jesus told the Pharasees.

 

[Hisalone]

What has not been mentioned on this thread is the written Word of God came after Tradition. Tradition (Capital T) is that collection of teachings that the Apostles preached about who Jesus truly was.
The Word of God did not come from heaven in the form of a book. The Word of God came to earth in the form of a man.

I just found this on the Ask an Apologist Thread and it seems to fit with our discussion:
… The Catholic Church is the tree Christ planted. Other Christian groups are leaves and branches that have fallen from that original tree.

---

A direct contradiction to the word of God.
Isreal is the tree God planted we are the branches.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The Catholic Church has no right to change or to superceed scripture. Kinda what Jesus told the Pharasees.

The Catholic Church believes the bible is the word of God.

The word of God supports the Catholic Church.

Jesus founded a Church. This Church was inspired by God to write the new testament.

 

[Hisalone]

The Catholic Church believes the bible is the word of God.

The word of God supports the Catholic Church.

Jesus founded a Church. This Church was inspired by God to write the new testament.

The bible is the inspired word of God.
The Catholic Church contradicts the word of God as my last post so graphically demonstratees.
The Church didnt write the bible God inspired men to.

 

[DebChris]

CCC77 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
–orally"by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received–whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it by the prompting of the Holy Spirit."
–in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing.”

CCC78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life, and worship perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes. “The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of the Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer.”

Tradition precedes the written Word of God that is the New Testament. The analogy of the tree that I used earlier was directly copied and pasted from a question on Ask an Apologist in answer to whether or not the Catholic Church could be called a denomination. There is little disagreement that the Catholic (Universal) Church was well established during the time of the Reformation. The new denominations of the Reformation separated from the Catholic Church, as leaves fall from a tree.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, non-Catholic Christians are to be viewed as our separated brothers and sisters in Christ. The Church desires the unity for which Christ prayed.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

The Catholic Church has no right to change or to superceed scripture. Kinda what Jesus told the Pharasees.

**
Hi Hisalone,

You are correct! The Catholic church has no right to change scripture and it doesn’t! That is true! In 2,000 years it hasn’t changed the meaning of one word, in one verse!

But how about the Protestant denominations? You came 1,500 years too late to have any authority on interpreting the word of God.
Jesus, Himself, warned against false prophets and teachers who would come into the body of Christ.
Did Protestants listen? Nope! And if they do read Jesus’ warnings, somehow they twist what Jesus said about false prophets and teachers to condemn the Catholic church. That is wrong! The NT of the bible were “our” writtings. As I said we haven’t changed the meaning of even one verse in over 2,000 years!

But in the last 500 years, Protestanrs have made over 100 “different” versions of the “Bible”. Did you know that the SDA just completed 3 additional bibles versions of their own?
Why are there so many vesions? Why have God’s words been changed? Could it be to mislead the people who foolishly attempt to follow the Bible and not God? Foolish people worship a book rather then their Lord and Savior!
Any rational, educated person realize that Sola Scriptura is a joke! It can’t be true even if some people somehow foolishly think it is, or could be!
[SIGN] “If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” - Saint Augustine **[/SIGN]

The Bible didn’t drop down from heaven! It is a collection of stories, poems, songs, tales, history and truths revealed by God throught many authors over about 5,000 years! As such, It has to be interpreted!
If the Bible said it rained cats and dogs. Some foolish people would say animals were falling out of the sky! As I said the bible needs to be “correctly” interpreted by the “authorized” church. Hint: it is 2,000 years old not from 1517AD or later!

Now, lets didcuss the most famous example of a corrupt version of the Holy Bible. The King James Version (KJV). In 1604, King James I of England, saw an opportunity to bring about unity with the church services in Presbyterian Scotland and Episcopal England by having 54 people rewrite the bible! This is history, I am not making it up! You can read about it!
This “new” bible was completed and published in 1611. There have been many “revisions” since then. All of them “Changing God’s words!” This happened in 1615, 1629, and again in1638. Finally in 1762, there were 3,600 additional “corrections” made to what use to be the Holy Bible approved by the Catholic church.

This my friend, is your KJV Bible! It is a twisted ,distorted, corrupted, altered, abomination, written to suit the desires of the rewriters! I have over a dozen bibles. a NASB, NLT, JKV, ASV, NKJV, NAS, NIV, and several others. I also have the Book of Morman, the Qur’an (Koran) and many other religious books. However, I obtain my “beliefs and learning” in Mass. The priest explains what God wants taught from the books that have been used for over 2,000. These truths revealed through sacred Tradition and “unaltered” scripture must be explained to us!

Please take your foot out of your mouth!

freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing025.gif

God Bless

 

[rinnie]

The bible is the inspired word of God.
The Catholic Church contradicts the word of God as my last post so graphically demonstratees.
The Church didnt write the bible God inspired men to.

Could you show me one thing that the RCC does that contradicts the bible. One thing okay. Now you said God inspired men to write the bible. Yes you are correct, but these men were of the Church. It was left for the Men of the Church to write, What really is the difference. That is why we have the cannon of scripture. Now you say the Church didnt write the bible God inspired men to. Who in your opinion were these men. Were they not men of the Catholic Church. That is why we say the Church. Who do you say did Cannon of scripture is not the CC. I am confused?

 

[Metamorphoo]

**I rather think of the Protestant denominations as hidiously distorted, cancerous growths! Weeds if you would, attempting to destroy the tree that Jesus planted, attempting to choke it and actually attempting to replace it!

They will loss of course. I just pray that the good people in these corrupt religions don’t loss their eternal souls by being foolish and following false preachers and doctrines.
**

I find this post extremely offensive. It also runs counter to what Vatican II has stated. You are not in line with what your Magisterium has decreed about “separated brethren.” The hate-filled rhetoric is also contrary to the Spirit of Christ.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The bible is the inspired word of God.
The Catholic Church contradicts the word of God as my last post so graphically demonstratees.
The Church didnt write the bible God inspired men to.

AS for the New Testament I do not think that when Paul was righting his various letters or Peter his that they were thinking " you about 300 hundred years from now people will put all these together in a book."

It was the Church that saw these as being inspired and complied them into the Bible. So the Bible was not written by anyone it was complied by the Church. which by the way is the Catholic Church.

Therefore As history graphically demonstrates your previous post are incorrect.

What all need to remember is that what is referred to in the N.T. as Scripture is all OT books the N.T. books were not considered Scripture till 300 to 400 years after they were written and the Church bond them together and declared them so.

 

[Hisalone]

AS for the New Testament I do not think that when Paul was righting his various letters or Peter his that they were thinking " you about 300 hundred years from now people will put all these together in a book."

It was the Church that saw these as being inspired and complied them into the Bible. So the Bible was not written by anyone it was complied by the Church. which by the way is the Catholic Church.

Therefore As history graphically demonstrates your previous post are incorrect.

What all need to remember is that what is referred to in the N.T. as Scripture is all OT books the N.T. books were not considered Scripture till 300 to 400 years after they were written and the Church bond them together and declared them so.

Does not Peter equate Pauls epistles with inspired scripture?

2Ptr 3:
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation–as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

What amazes me about Catholics is that they want to take all the credit for whatever happened good in Christianity no matter if it was them, and take none of the blame,
God breathed the scriptures into existance and made sure they were treated as what they are sacred oracles. The bible woud be present today whether there were popes or no popes coucils or no councils denominations or no denominations for it is the work of God.

 

[Hisalone]

Could you show me one thing that the RCC does that contradicts the bible. One thing okay. Now you said God inspired men to write the bible. Yes you are correct, but these men were of the Church. It was left for the Men of the Church to write, What really is the difference. That is why we have the cannon of scripture. Now you say the Church didnt write the bible God inspired men to. Who in your opinion were these men. Were they not men of the Catholic Church. That is why we say the Church. Who do you say did Cannon of scripture is not the CC. I am confused?

De 4:16 -
so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

De 4:23 -
"So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything {against} which the LORD your God has commanded you.

 

[rinnie]

De 4:16 -
so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

De 4:23 -
"So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything {against} which the LORD your God has commanded you.

I am still confused. Where do the teaching’s of the Church go against this. Where does the Church teach us that we can act corruptly, and where did the teaching’s of the Church break the covenant with our Lord?

 

[rinnie]

De 4:16 -
so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

De 4:23 -
"So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything {against} which the LORD your God has commanded you.

Also if you are trying to pull that we are worshiping false images, please give me a break. In Deut 4:16 you are talking about early history of course God didn’t reveal himself yet visivly in the form of any figure. But please give me a break in

Exodus 3:23 Dan 7-9 Matt3:16 Mark 1:10 Luke 3:22 John 1:32 acts 2:3 God did reveal himself quite openly. He was born of the Virgin Mary and was a Man. So again where is the Church going against the Bible. Or God. If someone has misled you to believe that we believe that anyone besides the Man hanging on the Cross is the image of our Lord Jesus CHrist please let me for once lay this matter to rest. Yes he is who we believe God. Jesus Christ. Do we believe that statue if God, come on. We know it is just the image of our Lord.

Have we ever said Saint Joseph, the Blessed Mother or any Saints are God, No we never have. Do we worship those statues NO WE DO NOT.

But again if we are accused to have a Cross with the Picture of Jesus Christ hanging on it and say that is the image of God.

Then GUILTY AS CHARGED. I will take that one for the church and go down with that. But please tell me where in the NT it did not tell us that Jesus was indeed a man and was hung on that cross?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I find this post extremely offensive. It also runs counter to what Vatican II has stated. You are not in line with what your Magisterium has decreed about “separated brethren.” The hate-filled rhetoric is also contrary to the Spirit of Christ.

**hi MetA, **
**Hate filled? Oh boy, do you have that wrong brother! **I am sorry you took pesonal offense to my post. That was not my intention whatsoever. Rather, in the spirit of true brotherly love, I wished to demonstrate how much in danger are the eternal souls of non-Catholics who continue to follow wrong practices and distorted words claimed to be God’s words. History proves that Protestants “changed” His Bible and misinterpret the real message of salvation. What good was Jesus’ sacrifice if so called christians ignore it? If people go their own way following false religions, how can they possibly be saved? Only through the grace of God, and learing the truth!

What exactly do you believe the Magisterium has decreed about “separated brethren” that I am not in compliance with?

The Catholic church is 2,000 years old and still teaching the same things. Protestant religions, only 500 years old , are teaching 1,375 different doctrines and dogmas in 61,000 seperate denominations using over 100 different bibles with altered words and verses.

Who is wrong?

Please don’t be offended pray on what I said! The truth shall set you free. Jesus loves you He really does! He died so you and I can have eternal life.

And yes, Catholics can also suffer eternal damnation. if we don’t practice what jesus taught. One of which was “true” love for our christian brothers! God is our judge. As a Powerful Catholic, I am just attempting to help you find the real way to worship God as He demands!

[sign] Powerful Catholic’s Motto

: Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders & says… 'Oh hell…he’s awake!!'
[/sign]

**I might have say something you don’t like, I am sorry that your feeling were hurt. Butnothing I say is never said in “hate”. I do not think Protestants are “evil” people. I do believe that they are foolishly following Satan’s plan to gain souls! I will never lie you, or anyone else just to give you a warm feeling! **

Sure we could debate and discuss the 'differences" in our religious practices. But could that change your mind? I think not. However with you being a intelligent person, when shown the error of your ways. In having the truth explained in non-sugar coated a manner. Maybe you will wake up and say: “Of course, The Catholic church must be correct, my counterfeit beliefs are only a sad imitations of what Jesus wants from us! How foolish I was!” Logic converts more people, The lies must be exposed for what they are!
**However, if you were practicing what Jesus said there would be no differences to discuss! Now do yuo understand you are being lied to? You arde being lead away from Jesus’ real church! **

**God Bless **

 

[Hisalone]

Here you have it the teaching is different than the command.

De 4:16 -
so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

De 4:23 -
"So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything {against} which the LORD your God has commanded you.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”[70] The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.[71]

 

[rinnie]

Here you have it the teaching is different than the command.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”[70] The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.[71]

Yes I agree with this 100% again whats your point?

finish it

2132 Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate, The movememt toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is. unquote

Please if you are going to quote CCC quote it all. What that means is just what I said. We look at a statue of Jesus and consider him the image of God. Please tell me where I am wrong? Just curious when you see a statue of Jesus who is he to you?