Catholics who know history: please answer

[Metamorphoo]

Interesting thread … God holds His People to a higher standard because they are His ambassadors to a lost world. Moral failure by those who profess Christ, regardless of its form, damages the reputation of ALL Christians–and has been the cause of more than a few people to reject Christ altogether. In the evangelical Protestant world, we’ve had the moral failings of people like Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker. In the Catholic Church, we’ve had the pedophile scandal. The sins of these and other Christian leaders have damaged the cause of Christ in ways we probably cannot imagine.

The Bible contains a number of examples of Israelites whose sin caused “the enemies of God to blaspheme” His Name. In Solomon’s case, his sin of idolatry resulted in the division of Israel into two–a rending decreed by the Lord Himself. Although the split did not occur until after Solomon’s death, the Bible clearly states that Solomon’s sin was the cause of this division. (ref: I Kings 11)

Any honest reading of Church history shows that nepotism, sexual immorality, and materialistic excess/corruption among the clergy were problematic during the Renaissance period. The sin extended to the papacy itself. Perhaps the most notorious was Pope Alexander VI (1492-1503), whose lifestyle was about as ungodly as it gets: openly hosting sexual orgies in the Vatican itself, with the Papal Curia joining in. (Note: Luther’s 95 Theses were posted in Wittenberg in 1517, only 14 years after Alexander’s death.)

Could it be possible that the divisions which occurred during the Reformation were the spiritual consequences of ongoing, gross sin by those who sat in positions of spiritual authority within the RCC? Could the Reformation have been the Lord’s means of getting the RCC leadership’s attention?

I am not trying to justify the divisions within Protestantism (which are ridiculously too numerous to count). But I do understand how it would have been extremely difficult for anyone who desired to follow Christ to submit to the spiritual authority of someone who is in flagrant sin. Regardless of your view on Savanarola, I can empathize with his view that Alexander VI was neither a pope nor a Christian.

When spiritual trust is broken, it is very easy for people to “throw the baby out with the bath water.” I think that Catholics all too often want to castigate Luther (and other Protestant Reformers), forgetting the disgust–and mistrust–that the sins of many clerics spawned within the people.

Just my two cents …

 

[benedictus2]

By doing Gods will in our lives He is magnified and thus we are feed once again for if we love Him we do His will.

So His Will is for us to eat His Flesh and drink His blood in the Eucharist. Are you doing this?

His will is that we may be one as He and our Father is one. So how come the protestants are so fragmented. Doesn’t that mean the protestants are going against Hi will?

The Holy Spirit is given to every believer at the time they are born again.

Where do you find support for that in the Bible?

At the laying on of hands the Holy Spirit is infused into our very bieng.

Again, where in the Bible does it say that this is when the Holy Spirit is infused into our being.

The Lords Supper is when we can come together as believers in the body to remember what has been done for us and been given to us. Christ is really present during this time as He is truly present at any other time. As we open our spirit to Him He comes in a sups with us and we are one with Him as He is one with the Father. Yes a few verses are read during mass but if you attend mass everyday for 3 years you will still not hear the complete bible.

The Lord’s Supper is when we come together as the Body of Christ to eat and drink the Body and Blood of Christ. Read your Bible it says so there.

Read John 6. It is very clear there. Eat my flesh, drink my blood. Who does not do this will not have eternal life.

Christ is with me in all His fullness as I type this. I do not have to go to a chapel or a church but only to set my affections, thoughts and heart on Him./

Of course you don’t. Why would you, you don’t have Christ in your church buildings.

 

[benedictus2]

The Bible contains a number of examples of Israelites whose sin caused “the enemies of God to blaspheme” His Name. In Solomon’s case, his sin of idolatry resulted in the division of Israel into two–a rending decreed by the Lord Himself. Although the split did not occur until after Solomon’s death, the Bible clearly states that Solomon’s sin was the cause of this division. (ref: I Kings 11)

Any honest reading of Church history shows that nepotism, sexual immorality, and materialistic excess/corruption among the clergy were problematic during the Renaissance period. The sin extended to the papacy itself. Perhaps the most notorious was Pope Alexander VI (1492-1503), whose lifestyle was about as ungodly as it gets: openly hosting sexual orgies in the Vatican itself, with the Papal Curia joining in. (Note: Luther’s 95 Theses were posted in Wittenberg in 1517, only 14 years after Alexander’s death.)

Could it be possible that the divisions which occurred during the Reformation were the spiritual consequences of ongoing, gross sin by those who sat in positions of spiritual authority within the RCC? Could the Reformation have been the Lord’s means of getting the RCC leadership’s attention?

I am not trying to justify the divisions within Protestantism (which are ridiculously too numerous to count). But I do understand how it would have been extremely difficult for anyone who desired to follow Christ to submit to the spiritual authority of someone who is in flagrant sin. Regardless of your view on Savanarola, I can empathize with his view that Alexander VI was neither a pope nor a Christian.

When spiritual trust is broken, it is very easy for people to “throw the baby out with the bath water.” I think that Catholics all too often want to castigate Luther (and other Protestant Reformers), forgetting the disgust–and mistrust–that the sins of many clerics spawned within the people.

Just my two cents …

True. And no one is denying that the Church needed to be rejuvenated at that time and other times prior to that.

But the question is the form that it took. The so called reformers who left the Church because of the corrupt peple within, became the very kind they were hoping to reform. Luther himself said that the protestants were more vile than the Catholics. If they were true reformers, then they should have been better than the members of the Catholic Church, but they were not . They were worse. This is because it was not the Holy Spirit that guided this reform.

Now within the Church true reform happened. And we have many Saints who came out of that era.

As I mentioned before, it is interesting that Saint Ignatius wrote about the discernment of Spirits around 6 years after Luther posted his 95 thesis.

Is God trying to tell us something here?

Luther was right to point out the ills in the Catholic Church. But these, the true reformers have also seen and begun to address. Compared to Luther however, these people were humble and not puffed up with pride and so was able to effect real reform.

If you argue that the rending (splitting of the Catholic Chruch) may have been decreed by God because of her sins, what does that say of the protestant movement which to this day continues to be choppped up into different pieces. Isn’t that an indictment of reformation theology. God chopping them up for chopping up the Body of Christ? If you look at Protestantism it is like Babel all over again.

Take a look at what the reformers did. They advocated that everyone can interpret the Bible for themselves, but when people did start to do that, the so called reformers had them tortured and killed. Doesn’t that say something about the real spirit animating the reformers? In view of that, do you honestly believe that it was the Holy Spirit who guided the reformers?

The Holy Spirit Unites, the Devil divides.

 

[benedictus2]

As I mentioned before, it is interesting that Saint Ignatius wrote about the discernment of Spirits around 6 years after Luther posted his 95 thesis.

Is God trying to tell us something here?

St Ignatius’ Rules for Discernment of Spirits

Third Rule. The third: With cause, as well the good Angel as the bad can console the soul, for contrary ends: the good Angel for the profit of the soul, that it may grow and rise from good to better, and the evil Angel, for the contrary, and later on to draw it to his damnable intention and wickedness.

Fourth Rule**.** The fourth: It is proper to the evil Angel, who forms himself under the appearance of an angel of light, to enter with the devout soul and go out with himself: that is to say, to bring good and holy thoughts, conformable to such just soul, and then little by little he aims at coming out drawing the soul to his covert deceits and perverse intentions.

---

Fifth Rule. The fifth: We ought to note well the course of the thoughts, and if the beginning, middle and end is all good, inclined to all good, it is a sign of the good Angel; but if in the course of the thoughts which he brings it ends in something bad, of a distracting tendency, or less good than what the soul had previously proposed to do, or if it weakens it or disquiets or disturbs the soul, taking away its peace, tranquillity and quiet, which it had before, it is a clear sign that it proceeds from the evil spirit, enemy of our profit and eternal salvation.

Sixth Rule. The sixth: When the enemy of human nature has been perceived and known by his serpent’s tail and the bad end to which he leads on, it helps the person who was tempted by him, to look immediately at the course of the good thoughts which he brought him at their beginning, and** how little by little he aimed at making him descend from the spiritual sweetness and joy in which he was, so far as to bring him to his depraved intention**; in order that with this experience, known and noted, the person may be able to guard for the future against his usual deceits.

The complete rules on this site

cfpeople.org/Books/Exercise/EXERCISEp15.htm

 

[Hisalone]

But obviously did not know or understand your faith.

God has led you to this forum so that you will be instructed in His Truth.

Listen!

I am here to call you out of darkness into light.

 

[Chancellare]

I am here to call you out of darkness into light.

No. You came into the light. From darkness.

 

[ralphinal]

I am here to call you out of darkness into light.

Possible. However, is it not possible that you are the one who has left the light?

Can you provide emperical evidence to support your claims about the Catholic Church? Can you show, without a doubt, that the first century Christians were more like you than us?

What is your stance on the Eastern Orthodox and her sister Churches?

 

[benedictus2]

I am here to call you out of darkness into light.

How can you when you are the one in darkness?

I put this challenge to you. Read all the replies that everyone in this forum has given you. But before you do that, sincererly as the Holy Spirit to guide you in your reading.

Read that you might understand. Don’t skip the hard facts.

People here have given you much to dwell on.

Print these answers and take them with you during your prayer time.

I don’t think God has led you this far just to abandon you to your fears and misconceptions.

 

[benedictus2]

No. You came into the light. From darkness.

Well said

 

[rinnie]

We are feed by every word that proceeds from God. By spending time with Him He feeds us it is in His prescence we are changed because we cannot save ourselves. By doing Gods will in our lives He is magnified and thus we are feed once again for if we love Him we do His will.
The Holy Spirit is given to every believer at the time they are born again. At the laying on of hands the Holy Spirit is infused into our very bieng. This Spirit is to guide us, help us and teach us as we follow Him. As you follow the Spirit you are dying to self. those that walk by the Spirit do away with the deeds of the flesh.
The Lords Supper is when we can come together as believers in the body to remember what has been done for us and been given to us. Christ is really present during this time as He is truly present at any other time. As we open our spirit to Him He comes in a sups with us and we are one with Him as He is one with the Father. Yes a few verses are read during mass but if you attend mass everyday for 3 years you will still not hear the complete bible.
Christ is with me in all His fullness as I type this. I do not have to go to a chapel or a church but only to set my affections, thoughts and heart on Him.

Then How do we receive him in the Eucharist?

 

[Metamorphoo]

If you argue that the rending (splitting of the Catholic Chruch) may have been decreed by God because of her sins, what does that say of the protestant movement which to this day continues to be choppped up into different pieces. Isn’t that an indictment of reformation theology. God chopping them up for chopping up the Body of Christ? If you look at Protestantism it is like Babel all over again.

Take a look at what the reformers did. They advocated that everyone can interpret the Bible for themselves, but when people did start to do that, the so called reformers had them tortured and killed. Doesn’t that say something about the real spirit animating the reformers? In view of that, do you honestly believe that it was the Holy Spirit who guided the reformers?

As I previously said, I can’t defend the endless splits that have occurred in Protestantism. They are wrong. Period. The point of my post was that there ARE consequences for sin. It matters not whether you are Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant–or Buddhist. Catholics want to blame Luther and other Protestant Reformers for the split. Yet I don’t know of any Catholics who will acknowledge that split MIGHT have been the spiritual fruit of the grievous sin that had been ongoing for quite awhile within many clergy (of all levels in the hierarchy) of the RCC. There seems to be an unwillingness to recognize the possibility that it could have been God’s judgment–a “severe mercy”–to bring the RCC leadership to repentance. It is easier to cast the brunt of blame on Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc., instead of acknowledging that the sin of the RCC leaders opened the door WIDELY for the division that ensued.

The sins of the RCC and the sins of the Reformers are separate issues. God addresses the sins of each separately, and each side must take responsibility for its respective sin.

The many divisions within Protestantism are due to sin. The bloodbath that characterized the Reformation was due to sin. And there have been and continue to be consequences for that sin!. It is a disgrace to Lord to see His people in division, especially since they have been called to be “ambassadors of reconciliation.”

The bashing of Catholics by Protestants, and Protestants by Catholics, is a lousy witness by both sides. Why would the world believe the Gospel of Reconcilation between God and man when His ambassadors can’t even be civil to one another?

I just want to see the end of blameshifting, the end of saying, “It’s so-and-so’s fault for the breach.” It takes humility and courage to own up to our own failings and to fully accept the consequences for what we have done–and allow God deal with the failings of others as He sees fit.

 

[DebChris]

We are feed by every word that proceeds from God. By spending time with Him He feeds us it is in His prescence we are changed because we cannot save ourselves. By doing Gods will in our lives He is magnified and thus we are feed once again for if we love Him we do His will.
The Holy Spirit is given to every believer at the time they are born again. At the laying on of hands the Holy Spirit is infused into our very bieng. This Spirit is to guide us, help us and teach us as we follow Him. As you follow the Spirit you are dying to self. those that walk by the Spirit do away with the deeds of the flesh.
The Lords Supper is when we can come together as believers in the body to remember what has been done for us and been given to us. Christ is really present during this time as He is truly present at any other time. As we open our spirit to Him He comes in a sups with us and we are one with Him as He is one with the Father. Yes a few verses are read during mass but if you attend mass everyday for 3 years you will still not hear the complete bible.
Christ is with me in all His fullness as I type this. I do not have to go to a chapel or a church but only to set my affections, thoughts and heart on Him.

The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us. It is of His flesh that we eat during the Sacrifice of the Mass.
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.” (John 6: 14).
There are more than a few verses of scripture read during Mass. The three year cycle covers the entire Bible. Most of the prayers used during Mass can be directly traced to Scripture.
Again, as Catholics, we pray at other times as well. As St. Paul said, pray always.
Following a 3 chapter a day plus 5 chapters on Sundays schedule (about 15 minutes), a person can read the Bible from cover to cover in one year.
Lectio Divina involves meditating upon a single verse throughout the day while going our daily work. I use it as part as a start to a journal entry, a way of applying scripture to daily life.
The rosary, when correctly prayed involves meditating upon the life of Christ. Many of us preface each decade with a scriptural verse. Some individuals pray a scriptural verse with each Hail Mary. The Hail Mary comes straight from the gospel of Luke. It developed first among peasants in fulfillment of Mary’s prophecy, “all generations shall call me blessed.”
Many lay Catholics follow the example of monks and other religious by daily praying the Liturgy of the Hours. The Liturgy of the Hours includes readings from the Psalms (also prayed during Mass). It also includes a short scriptural passage. Many of these devotionals are private practices that draw the individual closer to our Savior.
There are many ways to sit in the presence of God. One is through centering prayer. This can be done in solitude while at home. It can also be done while riding the bus or sitting at a train station.
Like Mary, I may choose to sit before the tabernacle, in pure adoration of the Eucharist exposed upon the altar.
We are born again through Baptism.
The Catholic explanation of The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a release of the gifts which each of us received by virtue of the Sacraments that we have received. It is true that for some these gifts have lain dormant.The gifts are alive and well within the Catholic Church. It is unfortunate that some people choose to deny this reality.
If we love God with all our heart and all our strength, indeed with all our being then our every breath becomes a prayer to our Creator.

 

[DebChris]

Interesting thread … God holds His People to a higher standard because they are His ambassadors to a lost world. Moral failure by those who profess Christ, regardless of its form, damages the reputation of ALL Christians–and has been the cause of more than a few people to reject Christ altogether. In the evangelical Protestant world, we’ve had the moral failings of people like Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker. In the Catholic Church, we’ve had the pedophile scandal. The sins of these and other Christian leaders have damaged the cause of Christ in ways we probably cannot imagine.

The Bible contains a number of examples of Israelites whose sin caused “the enemies of God to blaspheme” His Name. In Solomon’s case, his sin of idolatry resulted in the division of Israel into two–a rending decreed by the Lord Himself. Although the split did not occur until after Solomon’s death, the Bible clearly states that Solomon’s sin was the cause of this division. (ref: I Kings 11)

Any honest reading of Church history shows that nepotism, sexual immorality, and materialistic excess/corruption among the clergy were problematic during the Renaissance period. The sin extended to the papacy itself. Perhaps the most notorious was Pope Alexander VI (1492-1503), whose lifestyle was about as ungodly as it gets: openly hosting sexual orgies in the Vatican itself, with the Papal Curia joining in. (Note: Luther’s 95 Theses were posted in Wittenberg in 1517, only 14 years after Alexander’s death.)

Could it be possible that the divisions which occurred during the Reformation were the spiritual consequences of ongoing, gross sin by those who sat in positions of spiritual authority within the RCC? Could the Reformation have been the Lord’s means of getting the RCC leadership’s attention?

I am not trying to justify the divisions within Protestantism (which are ridiculously too numerous to count). But I do understand how it would have been extremely difficult for anyone who desired to follow Christ to submit to the spiritual authority of someone who is in flagrant sin. Regardless of your view on Savanarola, I can empathize with his view that Alexander VI was neither a pope nor a Christian.

When spiritual trust is broken, it is very easy for people to “throw the baby out with the bath water.” I think that Catholics all too often want to castigate Luther (and other Protestant Reformers), forgetting the disgust–and mistrust–that the sins of many clerics spawned within the people.

Just my two cents …

The Church is comprised of flawed individuals. It is true that the flagrant sins of those in power caused great scandal.
We can see the pattern of God’s chastisement throughout the OT when the Israelites strayed. I see your analysis of the Reformation as fairly accurate.
Still, the words that Jesus gave Peter remain true,
“And I so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18)

 

[benedictus2]

As I previously said, I can’t defend the endless splits that have occurred in Protestantism. They are wrong. Period. The point of my post was that there ARE consequences for sin. It matters not whether you are Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant–or Buddhist. Catholics want to blame Luther and other Protestant Reformers for the split. Yet I don’t know of any Catholics who will acknowledge that split MIGHT have been the spiritual fruit of the grievous sin that had been ongoing for quite awhile within many clergy (of all levels in the hierarchy) of the RCC. There seems to be an unwillingness to recognize the possibility that it could have been God’s judgment–a “severe mercy”–to bring the RCC leadership to repentance. It is easier to cast the brunt of blame on Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc., instead of acknowledging that the sin of the RCC leaders opened the door WIDELY for the division that ensued.

The sins of the RCC and the sins of the Reformers are separate issues. God addresses the sins of each separately, and each side must take responsibility for its respective sin.

The many divisions within Protestantism are due to sin. The bloodbath that characterized the Reformation was due to sin. And there have been and continue to be consequences for that sin!. It is a disgrace to Lord to see His people in division, especially since they have been called to be “ambassadors of reconciliation.”

The bashing of Catholics by Protestants, and Protestants by Catholics, is a lousy witness by both sides. Why would the world believe the Gospel of Reconcilation between God and man when His ambassadors can’t even be civil to one another?

I just want to see the end of blameshifting, the end of saying, “It’s so-and-so’s fault for the breach.” It takes humility and courage to own up to our own failings and to fully accept the consequences for what we have done–and allow God deal with the failings of others as He sees fit.

This is all very true, And the things is the Catholic Church HAS ACKNOWLEDGED the darkness in some parts of her history. But the point is she still remains the Body and Bride of Christ, she is still the Church that Christ founded on Peter to whom He promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail.

We have not seen a similar acknowledgement from protestants. They are blind to the horrors in their own history. They are blind to the errors in their doctrine.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hisalone:
Hisalone;
The body of Christ is ALL believers

Gabriel of 12:
yeah, but Jesus said, “Many will say Lord, Lord” “did we not do marvelous things in your name? and Jesus will tell them “depart from me you evil doers, I never knew you” Yet Jesus confirms to those in John 6: " you must eat my body, and drink my blood inorder to have eternal life”. So which believers are given eternal life, all believers who believe, or the believer’s (Catholics) who obey his commandments and act out his will to eat and drink his body and blood. So to which body of believers do you Hisalone belong too?

Hisalone:
The counterReformation is proof that reformation was needed.

**Gabriel of 12:
The counter Reformation is proof that Luther and his reformers could not change Catholic apostolic teaching and doctrine.
The reformers changed their Catholic faith for different gospel teaching beginning with the “Sola’s” teachings that were never heard of until the reformers invented this new christian doctrine. This is the change brought about by the reformers. **

Hisalone"
the RCC departed from salvation by grace through faith they were in apostacy

Gabriel of 12
Talk about wishful thinking, your reformers would disagree with you on that false accusation; unless you can prove other wise? Yet no one has never proved such a lie from history, so why feed such calamity to a topic of wishful haters of the body of Jesus Christ, fully human and fully divine.

The “Rock” Jesus built his church upon Peter is still the same today,
The rock is Christ
yesterday and forever more until he comes for his church finding Peter (present Pope) and the Roman Catholic church doing so as Jesus instructed her. This price not to change Jesus teachings came at a high price from the blood of Catholic martyrs who refused to change. So it was in the reformers period. What changed was like you call it, administrators in conduct or disciplines. But the Catholic faith remains intact unchanged only defined and revealed in her faith and apostolic teachings from Jesus Christ himself.

Peace

 

[benedictus2]

Hisalone;
The body of Christ is ALL believers

Gabriel of 12:
yeah, but Jesus said, “Many will say Lord, Lord” “did we not do marvelous things in your name? and Jesus will tell them “depart from me you evil doers, I never knew you” Yet Jesus confirms to those in John 6: " you must eat my body, and drink my blood inorder to have eternal life”. So which believers are given eternal life, all believers who believe, or the believer’s (Catholics) who obey his commandments and act out his will to eat and drink his body and blood. So to which body of believers do you Hisalone belong too?

Hisalone:
The counterReformation is proof that reformation was needed.

Gabriel of 12:
The counter Reformation is proof that Luther and his reformers could not change Catholic apostolic teaching and doctrine.
**The reformers changed their Catholic faith for different gospel teaching beginning with the “Sola’s” teachings that were never heard of until the reformers invented this new christian doctrine. This is the change brought about by the reformers. **

Hisalone"
the RCC departed from salvation by grace through faith they were in apostacy

Gabriel of 12
Talk about wishful thinking, your reformers would disagree with you on that false accusation; unless you can prove other wise? Yet no one has never proved such a lie from history, so why feed such calamity to a topic of wishful haters of the body of Jesus Christ, fully human and fully divine.

The “Rock” Jesus built his church upon Peter is still the same today,
The rock is Christ
yesterday and forever more until he comes for his church finding Peter (present Pope) and the Roman Catholic church doing so as Jesus instructed her. This price not to change Jesus teachings came at a high price from the blood of Catholic martyrs who refused to change. So it was in the reformers period. What changed was like you call it, administrators in conduct or disciplines. But the Catholic faith remains intact unchanged only defined and revealed in her faith and apostolic teachings from Jesus Christ himself.

Peace

GREAT POST!!

 

[benedictus2]

As I previously said, I can’t defend the endless splits that have occurred in Protestantism. They are wrong. Period. The point of my post was that there ARE consequences for sin. It matters not whether you are Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant–or Buddhist. Catholics want to blame Luther and other Protestant Reformers for the split. Yet I don’t know of any Catholics who will acknowledge that split MIGHT have been the spiritual fruit of the grievous sin that had been ongoing for quite awhile within many clergy (of all levels in the hierarchy) of the RCC. The bashing of Catholics by Protestants, and Protestants by Catholics, is a lousy witness by both sides. Why would the world believe the Gospel of Reconcilation between God and man when His ambassadors can’t even be civil to one another?

I just want to see the end of blameshifting, the end of saying, “It’s so-and-so’s fault for the breach.” It takes humility and courage to own up to our own failings and to fully accept the consequences for what we have done–and allow God deal with the failings of others as He sees fit.

Exactly. **It is precisely this humility that the reformers lacked. **
It takes humility indeed to own up to our own failings and the reformers never did. And neither did those who followed them. No one in protestantism has accepted the consequences of what they have done. Luther I think saw the error of his ways but till the end he was too proud to admit that he had been wrong. Read what he has written and see if you can call him a reformer. Read and see if you can see an ounce of humility there.

And what have those who have followed the reformers done? Spread lies about the Catholic Church and paint the reformation as if it was an unstained chapter in Christian history.

The “reformation” is not the **spiritual fruit **of the corruption within the Church. Because as I have mentioned there are those who saw the corruption and effected REAL REFORM. And these men and women are now saints precisely because they were humble.

In the end the only question is whether Christ kept His promise or not to preserve His Church from the gates of hell. Reform was indeed needed, but it was not the protestants who brought the reform about. **It was those who remained in the Catholic Church and loved the Body of Christ enough not to break it up into pieces who brought about the reform that was needed. **

The Holy Spirit Unites. The Devil divides.

 

[HappyRevert]

Someone asked if we can prove that the church today is the same as the one that Jesus founded. The best evidence I have read is from Justin Martyr who you can trace from the apostles up until his martyrdom. His description of the celebration of mass is a description of what happens today - right up through the taking of the Eucharist as the true body and blood of Jesus. I don’t think it gets any clearer than that.

The book Four Witnesses - the Early Church in her Own words (Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus of Lyons) is a laymen’s version of it. I believe that the Catholic church is the true church, but even I was startled by the evidence put forth by these men - particularly by Justin’s descriptions because he describes so closely how they celebrated mass and it is our mass.

 

[Metamorphoo]

Exactly. **
The “reformation” is not the** **spiritual fruit **of the corruption within the Church. Because as I have mentioned there are those who saw the corruption and effected REAL REFORM. And these men and women are now saints precisely because they were humble.

In the end the only question is whether Christ kept His promise or not to preserve His Church from the gates of hell. Reform was indeed needed, but it was not the protestants who brought the reform about. **It was those who remained in the Catholic Church and loved the Body of Christ enough not to break it up into pieces who brought about the reform that was needed. **

The Holy Spirit Unites. The Devil divides.

The DIVISION of the Body of Christ–not the Reformation itself–was, I believe, the fruit of the sins of the RCC. (I consider the two to be separate issues.) There are natural and spiritual laws of sowing and reaping. If you sow seeds of sin, you will reap a harvest of destruction. While Catholics acknowledge the gross sins of that era, I don’t think that they will admit that the ongoing sinful behavior of many RCC clergy sowed seeds which led to a destructive harvest.

The sins of many clergy of that era bred a lot of cynicism and a lack of confidence in the spiritual leadership of the RCC. That is why so many people threw off the authority of the pope during the Reformation. They were fed up with the hypocrisy and tired of being taken advantage of by unscrupulous clerics. The sins of the clergy caused a loss of spiritual credibility. And that loss of credibility led many of those involved in the Reformation to question the teachings of the RCC. These were the reasons that the Reformation was possible.

Were all RCC clergy engaging in decadent lifestyles? Obviously not. God always has a faithful remnant. But the problem was widespread enough that it created a lot of problems for the RCC as a whole.

I know Catholics believe that God would have corrected the situation by reforms from within. You said that God unites, Satan divides. That is generally true. But the Bible shows that God can and will divide under certain circumstances: He divided Israel because of Solomon’s sin (Jeroboam was NOT a usurper to the throne, in spite of the fact that he chose not to walk with the Lord); He divorced Israel (even though He hates divorce) because of the nation’s sins. Why do you assume He would not divide due to the sins of RCC leadership?

The difference between God’s division and Satan’s is in their ultimate purpose. God’s purpose to address the sin; ultimately, He wants restoration and reconciliation. Satan’s purpose is simply to destroy.

Do I believe that God will one day reunite all of His people into one? Yes, I do. But I don’t necessarily think that unity will be achieved the way Catholics expect (by all Christians acknowledging the authority of the RCC and the pope). And do I believe that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church? Yes, I do; but I don’t necessarily think that “the Church” is synonymous with the institution of the RCC. The Church is the Body of Christ–people who are disciples of Christ. They are the faithful remnant within the RCC, the Eastern Orthodox, Protestantism, and Messianic Judaism. Although God chastises His People for their sin, He will not allow their total destruction.

 

[Hisalone]

You know; the day after judgment day I expect to be called to a reception for all the theologians and preachers of all ages. St. Peter will call us to our seats, probably tell a bad joke and introduce us to the keynote speaker, Jesus the Christ. Our Lord will first tell us to give ourselves a hand, then say: “Nice try folks, but you all got it wrong. Let me set you streight.” I’m as hard nosed an idealog as any, and quite orthadox, but I always have to remind myself to ask: Are the hungry fed? Do the blind receive their sight? Do the poor have the Good News preached to them? Remember, The Preacher wrote: “For in much wisdom there is much grieef, and he increasing knowledge increases pain.” Eccleasties 1:18

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