Catholics who know history: please answer

[benedictus2]

I find all these posts very interesting, I see two different views being expressed, so I would like to pose a question to both view points, to the Catholics, Are you Christian first or Catholic first.
To the Non Catholics, do you think, that Catholics are going to heaven? This I think, and I may be wrong, is where both views seem to me, to take a different turn. Looking to Christ as the common thread we might be able to come together. It does not matter what happened with the reformation, to me, it happened, and we must accept it, if for no other reason then the ones that don’t believe in Christ. Our mission should be the same, point those that don’t know Him, to Him. If just one is brought into the church, we should rejoice and do everything we can to bring another into the family. May His Grace Become A Daily Thought As We Interact. Much Love, Hoi Polloi

What do you mean that what happened at the reformatin does not matter. Does it not matter that the Body of Christ has been hacked to pieces?

Do you not understand that the secularism that we know today is a fruit of the protestant movement?

I consider the Protestants Christians (at least those baptised in the Trinitarian way).

But I do agree that our mission should be to point those who do not know him in the right direction. And that is what is so sad. The protestants are more concerned with attacking the Catholic Church than trying to spread the Gospel to the atheists and the agnostics.

 

[DebChris]

I find all these posts very interesting, I see two different views being expressed, so I would like to pose a question to both view points, to the Catholics, Are you Christian first or Catholic first.
To the Non Catholics, do you think, that Catholics are going to heaven? This I think, and I may be wrong, is where both views seem to me, to take a different turn. Looking to Christ as the common thread we might be able to come together. It does not matter what happened with the reformation, to me, it happened, and we must accept it, if for no other reason then the ones that don’t believe in Christ. Our mission should be the same, point those that don’t know Him, to Him. If just one is brought into the church, we should rejoice and do everything we can to bring another into the family. May His Grace Become A Daily Thought As We Interact. Much Love, Hoi Polloi

As both the Documents of Vatican II and the CCC point out, those who are alive today are not responsible for the actions of those who lived 500 years ago. Strife is a luxury that Christians cannot afford.
If we follow the example of the Pope, we find the term Protestant no longer being used. What is being protested? As Blessed John XXII states, that which divides us serves to scandalize, as if the Body of Christ could be divided.
One of the prophecies from the first Charismatic Conferences I attended is “Weep, for the Body of my Son is broken.”
Sniping at one another does nothing to repair the damage of the past. We are called to prayer and reconciliation. We are called to dialogue, to communicate against differences.
How do we do that? We begin with the idea that although our separated brothers and sisters may not have “the fullness of Faith,” they ardently seek Christ and His righteousness.
I like the analogy of living in a castle. Our non-Catholic brothers and sisters live in tents within the castle walls. They are under the protection of the King even if they do not see the brocade that decorates the dining hall.

 

[Metamorphoo]

I find all these posts very interesting, I see two different views being expressed, so I would like to pose a question to both view points, to the Catholics, Are you Christian first or Catholic first.
To the Non Catholics, do you think, that Catholics are going to heaven? This I think, and I may be wrong, is where both views seem to me, to take a different turn. Looking to Christ as the common thread we might be able to come together. It does not matter what happened with the reformation, to me, it happened, and we must accept it, if for no other reason then the ones that don’t believe in Christ. Our mission should be the same, point those that don’t know Him, to Him. If just one is brought into the church, we should rejoice and do everything we can to bring another into the family. May His Grace Become A Daily Thought As We Interact. Much Love, Hoi Polloi

Yes, I do believe Catholics go to heaven. (Not all Catholics, just as not all Protestants, Othodox, etc. will go to heaven either.) My Catholic grandmother was a very godly woman and was instrumental in fostering my own hunger to know Christ.

I agree with you that the mission of all Christians needs to be pointing people to Christ.

Blessings …

 

[Metamorphoo]

When I read through the history books about what was going on at the time in Europe, I get the feeling that Luther and many of his contemporaries felt let down by the Roman Catholic Church, and after the Great Schism of 1054 (when the Eastern and Western Churches split), the idea of splitting with the Church was already considered a viable option. Especially since most of the people felt that they had no say in Church affairs and no power to say anything against any Church policies. The Church was quick to defend it’s doctrines and anyone who questioned the Church was labled a heretic and executed. With this sort of pressure, going through the “proper procedures” must have seemed an insurmountable task. The feeling of the Reformers was that the Church had become to politically motivated and worldly.

I think your assessment of Luther’s perspective is an accurate one. Luther’s intent was not to separate from the RCC. His statement at the Diet of Worms–“I can do no other” reveals that he genuinely felt before God that he could not recant his statements and be right in God’s eyes.

 

[Metamorphoo]

But I do agree that our mission should be to point those who do not know him in the right direction. And that is what is so sad. The protestants are more concerned with attacking the Catholic Church than trying to spread the Gospel to the atheists and the agnostics.

Benedictus2, all I have wanted was a civil discussion on this thread. I feel that the other Catholics who have posted have been courteous, even if their perspective is different from mine. But not you. You talk about Protestants attacking Catholics … and do not recognize that you have been consistently doing the same–not only to me, but your fellow Catholics as well.

I’m going to close my subscription to this thread. Blessings to all on the board …

 

[John1]

QUOTE=John1]There is a lot of good points on both sides. I wonder how each person would answer the question “Are you a protestant, a catholic, or a Christian?”. The first followers of Jesus were called Christians. The greek term “catholic” means universal and the first known use of this term was in the second century in a letter written by Ignatius. The term “protestant”, as far as relating to Christians other than the Christians in the Roman Catholic church began being used in the fourteenth or fifteenth century. Why can’t we come together in a repectful, dignified way istead of constant insults and demeaning remarks? The Body of Christ is alive and well, but it is not made up of murderers. Remember Jesus said if you hate your brother then you are a murderer. If we love each other, thats how people will know we are Christians. The original question asked “protestants” if a “catholic” Priest could forgive sins. Obviously the "protestant response would be “no”. Do you really think that stirring up disputes is a good way to bring Christians together. Why not focus on the things that all Christians agree on, namely that Jesus will forgive our sins if we truely are repentant.

Blessings

Hello again. I copied and attached this statement that I made in another thread just so you know that I feel the same. That is that we (Christians) need to come together and help each other in love. We must admit that we are not perfect. As Paul said, we see through a cloudy glass, but when we see Christ we will see and know fully. Until then we should help each other and not take an arrogant, prideful, or insulting stance on our particular views.

 

[The_Preacher]

I can’t believe it! A politically correct Christian. What, you cannot even use A.D. now? The dates from 1 to now is referenced back to Christ.

It is not C.E. common era. It is A.D. Anno Domine, the year of the Lord.

So much for being Christian, huh?

Politically correct? Who’s politics? In 1940s Germany it would have been dangerously politically incorrect to be pro-Jewish, pro- Gipsey (a term which I acknowledge is now politically incorrect), pro-comunist, pro-nigro (the current term then) or any other of a littiny of non-Arian “sub humans.” I wonder what is politically correct among the Cargo Cults of Bornieo? In Mecca it’s politiclly incorect to be Christian and the concequences are delivered chop chop, if you get my drift. Nasty. I think I can assume that this discussion is taking place in venue of the 21st century American culture. This culture is just barely over two hundred years old. The Church is over two thousand. If America and it’s culture makes it to five hundred, then it might gain a slight, if very junior credability. But don’t hold your breath.

 

[steve_b]

Very true. As I said, I have great empathy for him but don’t agree with him. The actual formula is: “Justification by Grace, through Faith, apart from works of the law.” Works proceed from Faith. Justification does not proceed from works. The distortions began with Melanthon, a close friend of Luther who tried to systimatize him. No compitant theologian would ever accuse Luther of being a systimatition. In fact, he himself didn’t bother to write down most of what he taught. A lot of it comes from his lectures and “table talks” where his listeners would take notes of his frequently off handed remarks and then pool them to draw up a reasonable transcript. The real damage was done by the German High Scolastics. Where modern Lutherans get their theology Oh! While I’m at it: Luther wanted to be a monk and stay a monk. Von Staupz pushed him into the priesthood, then into his doctorate and professership, which was where he was when he made his understandable but terrable mistake. As I’ve said, I’m confident of the comming pleasure of shareing a beer with him at the great feast. He was a great story teller. Did you hear the one about his “Tower Experience?” “The tower” in his day was a eupherism for the out house. But there are oh so many paintings of the earnest monk praying in a high castle room. And that is exactly what he intended. No disrespect there. That’s where I’ve done my best thinking. I started out Lutheran, but made the mistake (in the eyes of my superiors) of seriously reading theology, following Luther’s injunction “To the sources!” with an open mind. Do that and there is only one possibility: Rome.

Unless this is someone elses forgery of a transcript of what Luther wrote instead of what HE wrote, Seems to me Luther was culpable in his own words for his views. I agree with you that his beliefs can be taken to an even higher notch by over enthusiasts who are/were in the mood to rebel and stay rebellious

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-translate.txt

 

[The_Preacher]

Unless this is someone elses forgery of a transcript of what Luther wrote instead of what HE wrote, Seems to me Luther was culpable in his own words for his views. I agree with you that his beliefs can be taken to an even higher notch by over enthusiasts who are/were in the mood to rebel and stay rebellious

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-translate.txt

I was studying at the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia when it received the comission to translate into English that remaining body of Luther’s material which had never been translated. I know from whence I speek. I studied him under the best. Though it is not my primary field, I lecture on Luther. To say he was no systimatition is no insult. He never intended to be and it in no way denegrades or judges his work. He was a wonderful man and a delight to study. As I have often said, I’m looking forward to a stine of beer with him at the feast of the lamb. I suggest you read up on his famious “Table Talks.” Be warned: there are many Lutheran Synods here in the US that have so bought into Protistantism, even Fundimentalism that Luther is probably so spinning in his grave that he has bored his way half way to Duseldorff by now.

 

[DebChris]

I was studying at the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia when it received the comission to translate into English that remaining body of Luther’s material which had never been translated. I know from whence I speek. I studied him under the best. Though it is not my primary field, I lecture on Luther. To say he was no systimatition is no insult. He never intended to be and it in no way denegrades or judges his work. He was a wonderful man and a delight to study. As I have often said, I’m looking forward to a stine of beer with him at the feast of the lamb. I suggest you read up on his famious “Table Talks.” Be warned: there are many Lutheran Synods here in the US that have so bought into Protistantism, even Fundimentalism that Luther is probably so spinning in his grave that he has bored his way half way to Duseldorff by now.

I definitely have limited knowledge regarding Luther. What has already been mentioned on this thread is his devotion to Mary.
Yet, many of the reformationists destroyed statues of Mary. I have heard preachers denigrate Mary, overlooking the fact that she was specially chosen to carry our Savior. If you honor the mother, you honor the son. Would these same preachers accept the insults they hurl at our blessed mother were somebody to hurl the same insults at their own mothers?
When asked how to become a better Christian, Luther would tell sinners to go to confession.
What we have during the Reformation is a failure to communicate. Nobody was willing to listen to the other person (as we sometimes see on this forum). Much of what was actually taught was distorted.
A different example of distorted teaching is that of Calvin. My son-in-law is a Presbyterian minister so when my daughter had the opportunity to speak on Calvinism in class, she took it.
The predestination of which Calvin spoke was meant to be a joyous understanding of what St. Paul calls our “predestination as sons and daughters” of our Creator. What has come down through history, however, is the Puritan view of predestination in which “few are chosen.” Of course, as we know, the Puritans strove to remove anything that could possibly be conceived as “Catholic” from their worship.
We are strengthened as Christians by current interfaith dialogue that seeks to address these misconceptions of one another.

 

[The_Preacher]

I definitely have limited knowledge regarding Luther. What has already been mentioned on this thread is his devotion to Mary.
Yet, many of the reformationists destroyed statues of Mary. I have heard preachers denigrate Mary, overlooking the fact that she was specially chosen to carry our Savior. If you honor the mother, you honor the son. Would these same preachers accept the insults they hurl at our blessed mother were somebody to hurl the same insults at their own mothers?
When asked how to become a better Christian, Luther would tell sinners to go to confession.
What we have during the Reformation is a failure to communicate. Nobody was willing to listen to the other person (as we sometimes see on this forum). Much of what was actually taught was distorted.
A different example of distorted teaching is that of Calvin. My son-in-law is a Presbyterian minister so when my daughter had the opportunity to speak on Calvinism in class, she took it.
The predestination of which Calvin spoke was meant to be a joyous understanding of what St. Paul calls our “predestination as sons and daughters” of our Creator. What has come down through history, however, is the Puritan view of predestination in which “few are chosen.” Of course, as we know, the Puritans strove to remove anything that could possibly be conceived as “Catholic” from their worship.
We are strengthened as Christians by current interfaith dialogue that seeks to address these misconceptions of one another.

 

[The_Preacher]

The_Preacher:
I’d have thought what we had here was a failure to excomunicate. All joking aside; As we say here in Wisconsin, you can pass the ball but you can’t control where the receiver will run with it. Luther would have been horrified at being accuded of leaving the Catholic faith. He had questions about a lot of the abuses he saw, and most certainly there were abuses, but there are things attriguted to him that he definately didn’t do. He never closed the canon of scripture, in fact there is no closed canon in Lutheran theology today, though there is much internal arguement over it, which the best Lutheran theologians ignore. He never limited the sacrements to two. What he did say was that they must be availed of, “whatever their number.”

 

[benedictus2]

Benedictus2, all I have wanted was a civil discussion on this thread. I feel that the other Catholics who have posted have been courteous, even if their perspective is different from mine. But not you. You talk about Protestants attacking Catholics … and do not recognize that you have been consistently doing the same–not only to me, but your fellow Catholics as well.

I’m going to close my subscription to this thread. Blessings to all on the board …

Metamorphoo, from Hisalone and other protestants have come here to tell us we are wrong.

If I have come on strong with my answers to you it is because you keep going back to the same point even when it has been refuted.

You refuse to acknowledge that the splintering of Christianity is a result of the “reformation”.

I have seen so many websites which are solely dedicated to spreading lies about the Catholic Church.

Protestants went to world youth day to disrupt it.

So excuse me if I feel defensive when I see your posts.

 

[John1]

2 Timothy 2:23-26 Paul says that we should avoid foolish arguments and that a slave to Christ should be, gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness.

Christians are supposed to treat each other with love, that’s how the world will know that we are truely Christians!

Blessings

 

[John1]

I just watched a story on television that was about the Church of the Holy Selpuchre in Jerusalem. It needs repairs, but because of the fighting between the Christian groups there, nothing can be done. This should be an embarassment to all Christian. I think that most of the splintering in this situation happened several centuries before the Reformation. There have been differences between Christian since the beginning of Christianity, or at least just after the Cruxifiction, as evinced in the Bible itself. The history books are filled with the violence of the early Christians at some of the Councils. All Christians need to come together and unite in love for one another.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Protestant Reformation happened because some Catholics did not appreciate how the Bible was being interpreted, and how people were “buying their way into Heaven” (you know, the collection). Not only that, but they did not like how the Pope was running things.

That’s the general picture. Of course, there is more to it.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[Hisalone]

I find all these posts very interesting, I see two different views being expressed, so I would like to pose a question to both view points, to the Catholics, Are you Christian first or Catholic first.
To the Non Catholics, do you think, that Catholics are going to heaven? This I think, and I may be wrong, is where both views seem to me, to take a different turn. Looking to Christ as the common thread we might be able to come together. It does not matter what happened with the reformation, to me, it happened, and we must accept it, if for no other reason then the ones that don’t believe in Christ. Our mission should be the same, point those that don’t know Him, to Him. If just one is brought into the church, we should rejoice and do everything we can to bring another into the family. May His Grace Become A Daily Thought As We Interact. Much Love, Hoi Polloi

Heaven will be loaded with Catholics and Methodists and Baptists and Orthodox and SDA and…

We must trust in abide in believe in Christ, From my perspective too many trust in the RCC abide in the RCC and believe in the RCC. There is a difference sadly for many there is no difference.

 

[Chancellare]

Protestant Reformation happened because some Catholics did not appreciate how the Bible was being interpreted, and how people were “buying their way into Heaven” (you know, the collection). Not only that, but they did not like how the Pope was running things.

That’s the general picture. Of course, there is more to it.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

Blade and Blood,
As Hoi Polloi said, it alll has happened already. Show me someone in this site who buys his way to heaven and let’s take care of him. Other than that, no one gives a hoot anymore. So what’s your point now?

 

[benedictus2]

Protestant Reformation happened because some Catholics did not appreciate how the Bible was being interpreted, and how people were “buying their way into Heaven” (you know, the collection). Not only that, but they did not like how the Pope was running things.

That’s the general picture. Of course, there is more to it.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

Read the exchange that has gone on in this thread. That is exactly what has been addressed.

We do not say there was no problem. It was the reformers approach that was in error. And this is proved by the fact that there are now thousands of protestant denominations.

In your opinion, is it right to dismember the Body of Christ because some of her members is sick and covered with sores?

 

[John1]

I don’t believe that the true church that Christ established has ever been dismembered or “hacked” to pieces. I don’t believe that the Body of Christ was separated spiritually when Rome fell and the Eastern and Western churches were divided. I don’t believe that the Body of Christ was dismembered in 1054 when the Roman Ctholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church excommunicated each other. I don’t believe the Body of Christ was “hacked to pieces” when the Reformation movement took place in Europe, nor when the Restoration movement took place in America. I do believe that all of these movements is in some way the “testing in the fire” of anything built on the foundation, which is Christ, that is mentioned in 1 Corinthians. All Christian make up the body of Christ. The way we tell who are sons of God as opposed to those who are not, if we love our brothers in Christ.