Catholics who know history: please answer

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Well, I’m not a Catholic, but I would distinguish three main reasons for the Reformation.

1. A general movement toward “reform” loosely associated with the intellectual tradition of “humanism” (i.e., the study of ancient texts in order to promote eloquent speech and moral behavior in the present) and reacting against aspects of late medieval Catholicism that many folks saw as corrupt and/or “superstitious.” This movement privileged moral behavior and the study of Scripture over ritual and clerical authority, and it was part of a general cultural trend toward what Berndt Hamm has called the “concentration of norms”–i.e., focus on the basics and thus bring unity to the increasingly diverse and complex world of late medieval Christianity.
2. Associated with the above, a push by civil governments to unify society by eliminating the dual structure of authority that characterized the Middle Ages. Marsilius of Padua, for instance, had argued in the 14th century that the Church should not own property or have any kind of coercive authority. Civil governments were seen by advocates of this position as the divinely authorized preservers of order and morality, with the Church having purely “spiritual” functions of teaching and sacramental celebration.
3. A trend among some late medieval theologians toward a radical interpretation of St. Augustine stressing human sin and helplessness (part of a general cultural trend which Jean Delumeau has described as an era of guilt and fear). In the case of the idiosyncratic Augustinian theologian Martin Luther, this theology underwent a mutation into a theology of hope and confidence based on trust in the promise of God in Christ, as the only way to escape the burden of guilt consequent on radical human sinfulness. This theology linked up (not without some tensions and conflicts) with the previous two elements, since it provided an explanation for the widespread perception of corruption and superstition (the Church had degenerated into an institution by which humans sought to earn God’s favor), and gave spiritual legitimacy to the drive of civil governments toward unification of authority (by limiting the role of the Church to the proclamation of the Gospel through Word and Sacrament).

Was it justifiable? As a split within Christianity, no. Some of its ideas were valuable, but they should have been pursued within the framework of Catholicism. Luther’s teachings were not the Gospel, but only one wacky and interesting interpretation of the Gospel.

Edwin

Which is preferable:​

• idolising a Church but keeping at united as a society
• breaking it up but preaching the Gospel
  I think my are sympathies with the Reformers. If the Church is becomes an idol that can do no wrong, it is an enemy to the Gospel, & has losts its savour.

 

[benedictus2]

## Which is preferable:

• idolising a Church but keeping at united as a society
• breaking it up but preaching the Gospel
  I think my are sympathies with the Reformers. If the Church is becomes an idol that can do no wrong, it is an enemy to the Gospel, & has losts its savour.

Only because you are assuming that the Church is not the true Chruch of Christ. Since she is the true Church of Christ and what Paul calls His Bride, it is not idolizing at all. And how can the Church go against the very Gospel that Christ has commission her to preach. The very gospels that came to be written in her bossom.

The church does and have done wrong. But the promise is not that she will be led into goodness but that she will be led into Truth by the Holy spirit.

It is interesting that Christ did not say I am the way, the good and the life, but rather that He is the way, the TRUTH and the life.

And no she has not lost her saviour. Why, she is His Bride.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I have been very busy, don’t have much free time on my hands. I feel that I need to express a concern. I realize this forum has been used to say that the Catholic Church is the one true church. I believe that Jesus is the reason. I implore you to please pray to Him, please confess that you are a sinner and you need His forgiveness, please ask him to come into your life, and make Him Lord and Savior. He is coming back very very soon. If I can reach just one person with this message, I will be thankful. I hold my Catholic friends in high regard. Please understand, I was spiritually blind, but now I see. I don’t expect you to understand, the only way you will know what I say is true, is if you pray the prayer from your heart and really mean it. Please don’t put it off, please pray to Jesus right now. God Bless you.

**
Hi hoi polloi,

Thanks for your concern! I understand completely. I ask you to pray that God opens your eyes to the correct church so you can break away from the one that Satan started and join Jesus and us in His real church. As you said Jesus may be coming soon, no one knows the day nor the time, convert and follow Jesus’ true teachings so that you can enjoy paridise with Jesus and His followers. Do not presist in being one of the false believers in a counterfeit church. Please don’t put it off, Pray to God immediately for your personal conversion and the conversion of all the other sinners.

God Bless!**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Only because you are assuming that the Church is not the true Chruch of Christ. Since she is the true Church of Christ and what Paul calls His Bride, it is not idolizing at all. And how can the Church go against the very Gospel that Christ has commission her to preach. The very gospels that came to be written in her bossom.

The church does and have done wrong. But the promise is not that she will be led into goodness but that she will be led into Truth by the Holy spirit.

It is interesting that Christ did not say I am the way, the good and the life, but rather that He is the way, the TRUTH and the life.

And no she has not lost her saviour. Why, she is His Bride.

**
Hi Ben,

Dear, I am afraid that you just don’t understand. Protestants modified, changed, distorted and corrupted our sacred scriptures. They then made these phony bibles their guides rather then the real teachings of Jesus.

Because Satan has them blinded to the truth they, of course, believe that the real church isn’t following Jesus when in fact we are the only ones who are. They are wandering all through the secular world with their counterfeit and corrupted belief systems, converting people to a false Jesus, as they know Him. They deny that Jesus established one church, 2,000 years ago which is still here. If you were a member of one of their 61,000 counterfeit groups which “appeared” in the last 500 years, using over 100 versions of their false and corrupted bible, might not you also think the same?

They idolizea book and accuse us of do the same to the church.(By church we know we mean “people” not “buildings”) I personally would rather " idolize" the real “body of Christ” than a book anyday! Jesus is the head of the real body. Protestants groups are only part of a cancerous growth on that body, which keeps dividing and multiplying. I understand there are 21 “new” “improved” denominations created every month. Isn’t that precious? You really have to love our foolish brethren.

I never thought of this before, until someone said to me. “Do you realize how much “faith” it must take to believe in a church that started less than 500 years ago?” Their leaders explain how they are the real church, when they can see that the original church which they read Jesus established 2,000 years ago is still here. They have to have faith that Jesus lied when He said He was leaving His church here on earth until His return! My faith has grown over the years, our history is so deep and true. The Protestants even have the nerve to use “our” Saints and early church fathers pretending that they are their forefathers rather than the Protesters of 500 years ago, or less. We never adopted them!

They don’t seem to realize that Jesus was talking to His church and telling people that they had to become members of His church to be saved. he never said “make an imitation copy of my real church and be saved!” Poor Protestants! :bighanky:

They need our prayers.

God Bless **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I realize this thread has devolved into odd responses and extravagent statements, but I would like to suggest a good secular book about the origins of the Reformations (yes, plural)

Euan Cameron “The European Reformation” Oxford University Press, 1991.

Cameron summarizes most of the problems and proposals for this very problematic question.

I’d also like to point out that Catholicism had Christian competitors before Luther, like the Hussites (which were actually the first succesful group to ceceed from the Catholic church a hundred years before Luther.)

As someone has already said, this is a significant historiographic problem with few sure answers.

**
Hi statim

I agree! But the Catholic church has continued to be the one holy catholic and apolostic chiurch Jesus founded no matter how often the devil attempts to divide it. Sinners fall away to false beliefs and false churches. Catholics pray that they read only one passage which Satan hasn’t had them eliminate from his false versions of sacrad scripture yet! : “… thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” - Matthew 28:18-20. It has been 2,000 years and counting!

[SIGN] **Reasons for the Protestant Bibles **
“When the Devil quotes Scriptures, it’s not, really, to deceive, but simply that the masses are so ignorant of theology that somebody has to teach them the elementary texts before he can seduce them.” - Paul Goodman [/SIGN]

God Bless**

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am doing research on the reformation, and I would like to get as many different views as I can. So if you could answer these two questions for me, please do.

Why did the Protestant Reformation happen?

Was it justifiable?

It all depends what reformation means. does that mean that the CC became corrupt because some Catholics at the time went somewhat a bit far from the teachings of the Church? or is it because ML and others decided to take the opportunity to rebel against the Church? supported by the german politically motivated hatreth for the Church?

now, can we really call the reformation? to call it reformation it would mean that the CC no longer would be the Church stablished by Christ but the reformers would be the one now the True Church. perhaps that is the big confusion among Catholics and protestants.

they see themselves as the new church. the catholic church reformed. that is why i hear many calling themselves catholics. the new catholic church.

what is it justifiable? how can this be justifiable? lets say that i decided to leave the church because i see that someone is doing something wrong, but yet i see many others who is doing right. how can i justify my actions? simply ignore the others?

perhaps somehow we can sort this out. i dont know how.

**

“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D…
Who has the authority?.. **

 

[rinnie]

I have been very busy, don’t have much free time on my hands. I feel that I need to express a concern. I realize this forum has been used to say that the Catholic Church is the one true church. I believe that Jesus is the reason. I implore you to please pray to Him, please confess that you are a sinner and you need His forgiveness, please ask him to come into your life, and make Him Lord and Savior. He is coming back very very soon. If I can reach just one person with this message, I will be thankful. I hold my Catholic friends in high regard. Please understand, I was spiritually blind, but now I see. I don’t expect you to understand, the only way you will know what I say is true, is if you pray the prayer from your heart and really mean it. Please don’t put it off, please pray to Jesus right now. God Bless you.

I think I agree with you if what you are saying that the Catholic church is the one true Church. The bible tells us that we cannot separate Jesus from his Church. But I disagree with you in saying Jesus is comming very very soon, The bible also say only God knows when he is comming. But I agree live everyday like it is going to be right now, but we cannot say when that is.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Jesuspaiditall:

I am doing research on the reformation, and I would like to get as many different views as I can. So if you could answer these two questions for me, please do.

Why did the Protestant Reformation happen?

**
Hi Jesuspaid, **

Most historians would agree that the poor or laborers had huge dissatisfaction with the wealth of the clergy. The church system was different then it is now, the same as the times differed. Middle class cities were like individual republics in Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands. They wanted to manage their own affairs. The church became too involved in their lives and political structures. Kings and Rulers wanted the church’s property, taxes and power. Other abuses had to be changed. The Devil saw these things as opportunities to be used to divide Jesus’ real church and obtain control of good God fearing people by allowing them to believe they could become Jesus’ real church by just saying so! What they actually got was distorted, corrupted and counterfeit versions of Jesus’ church which couldn’t satify their desire for Jesus like His original church did for 1,500 years so they kept dividing, multiplying, and attempting to form His church. These have become 61,000 groups which actually shouldn’t be called Christian because they do not follow Jesus’ real teachings! They have 1,375 different doctrines, dogmas and beliefs many of which counter eachother and the Catholic church, Jesus’ real church which is now over 2,000 years old and still undivided.

Was it justifiable?



**Errrrrr, Sorry, were you serious?

NO!, YES!, MAYBE!, Pick one! **

God Bless

 

[benedictgal]

I have been very busy, don’t have much free time on my hands. I feel that I need to express a concern. I realize this forum has been used to say that the Catholic Church is the one true church. I believe that Jesus is the reason. I implore you to please pray to Him, please confess that you are a sinner and you need His forgiveness, please ask him to come into your life, and make Him Lord and Savior. He is coming back very very soon. If I can reach just one person with this message, I will be thankful. I hold my Catholic friends in high regard. Please understand, I was spiritually blind, but now I see. I don’t expect you to understand, the only way you will know what I say is true, is if you pray the prayer from your heart and really mean it. Please don’t put it off, please pray to Jesus right now. God Bless you.

Perhaps it might help if you read what the late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus had to say. He was a Lutheran Minister who converted to the Church and went on to become a priest, one of the finest theological minds and intellectuals the Church in America has seen in recent history.

Here are some snippets from the article:

When in 1990 I was received by the late John Cardinal O’Connor into full communion with the Catholic Church-on September 8, the Nativity of Our Lady-I issued a short statement in response to the question Why. With Lutheran friends especially in mind, I said, “To those of you with whom I have traveled in the past, know that we travel together still. In the mystery of Christ and his Church nothing is lost, and the broken will be mended. If, as I am persuaded, my communion with Christ’s Church is now the fuller, then it follows that my unity with all who are in Christ is now the stronger. We travel together still.”

… became a Catholic in order to be more fully what I was and who I was as a Lutheran. The story that follows may shed some light on that short answer.
In the statement of September 8, 1990, I also said:

I cannot express adequately my gratitude for all the goodness I have known in the Lutheran communion. There I was baptized, there I learned my prayers, there I was introduced to Scripture and creed, there I was nurtured by Christ on Christ, there I came to know the utterly gratuitous love of God by which we live astonished. For my theological formation, for friendships beyond numbering, for great battles fought, for mutual consolations in defeat, for companionship in ministry-for all this I give thanks. . . . As for my thirty years as a Lutheran pastor, there is nothing in that ministry that I would repudiate, except my many sins and shortcomings. My becoming a priest in the Roman Catholic Church will be the completion and right ordering of what was begun all those years ago. Nothing that is good is rejected, all is fulfilled.

Fr. Neuhaus was a brilliant man and his words, even to a cradle Catholic like me, make a lot of sense. He was seeking the fullness of the Truth, and that fullness is contained in its entirety in the Catholic Church.

Here is a link to the entire article:

firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2007

I hope that this article will help you understand, especially since these words are coming from the perspective of a man who literally dived head first into the Tiber.

 

[benedictus2]

Realcatholicgk:

** never thought of this before, until someone said to me. “Do you realize how much “faith” it must take to believe in a church that started less than 500 years ago?” **

---

Yes, somehow they think that for first 1500 years the gospel died somehow and was resurrected on 1517.

Ignorance of history. That’s what it all boils down to.

And the converts prove this. Once they start digging into history then they find the One True Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.