Catholics who openly dissent from Church Teaching

[ahs]

I see so often, even on this forum, people who say they are Catholic, yet reject Church teaching as though their opinion somehow overrides Church teaching. I’ve seen this happen with the teaching on Hell (whether or not is exists), the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, contraceptives, witness to Truth, etc…

But most prevalent among these are those who dissent from the Church’s teaching on contraception. I hear about how the teaching makes no sense to a person, so they reject it. Somehow they come to the conclusion that because that teaching does not make sense to them, or if it does not fit into their desired lifestyle, that they can just dismiss it entirely or make it fit into their personal view as they pick and choose what they do and don’t like.

This has me worried for a great many Catholics. Statistics show that 90% or more of Catholics use artificial birth control/contraception (condoms, the pill, onanism, or any number of barrier methods, etc…). Yet, contraception is clearly and explicitly condemned in Church Doctrine. The illicitness of contraception is a matter of Doctrine that demands our assent, regardless of whether we agree or understand.

Any number of those Catholics will claim they are in union with the Church and assent to Her Authority…“except for 1 or 2 things, which isn’t a big deal” so they claim. What’s worse, is some even go so far as to obstinately oppose the teaching publicly, at the risk of causing scandal. Well, it IS a big deal, indeed.

For starters, people of such mind are in violation of Code of Cannon Law:

Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

Can. 227 The lay Christian faithful have the right to have recognized that freedom which all citizens have in the affairs of the earthly city. When using that same freedom, however, they are to take care that their actions are imbued with the spirit of the gospel and are to heed the doctrine set forth by the magisterium of the Church. In matters of opinion, moreover, they are to avoid setting forth their own opinion as the doctrine of the Church.

Some will argue that the Church teaching on contraception is a fallible one, and erroneous at that. Not so, according to Blessed Pope John Paul II. From his Apostolic Constitution, Fidei Depositum in reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Doctrinal Value of the Text
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!

The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus’ disciples (cf. Lk 22:32), as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith.

Therefore, I ask all the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pet 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.
(emphasis mine)

 

[Little_One0307]

Good post and I am glad that you posted this.

There are some cases where people may dissent from Church doctrine because they are in a place to where they may not understand the doctrine or have a legitimate doubt about it. But in these cases, they still are not excused from following the Teaching of the Church because of this. We are called to walk by Faith and not by sight.

But in cases where they do understand what the Church is teaching and they reject in following that particular point that they dissent from, they are a heretic. It does not matter if you believe in 99% of the Church Teaching but if you reject one belief, then that makes you a heretic. These are not my words, these are definitions given by the Church.

I know at times when I first converted as a Catholic I did not stand with the Church on matters of the death penalty and some other areas, and was very hard pressed at times. Yet, I tried my best in following the Teaching of the Church and praying God for the enlightenment of Faith and grace to follow the Teaching of the Church even though it did not make sense to me. He, I am thankful to say, has answered this prayer.

We should pray for those who do not follow all the Teachings of the Church that they may be given the graces and strengthes that will allow them to follow the Teaching of the Church. And those of us who do follow all the Teachings of the Church we should be grateful that we have the grace to do so and continue to beg for the grace to continue to follow all the Teachings of the Church.

God bless.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I see so often, even on this forum, people who say they are Catholic, yet reject Church teaching as though their opinion somehow overrides Church teaching. I’ve seen this happen with the teaching on Hell (whether or not is exists), the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, contraceptives, witness to Truth, etc…

But most prevalent among these are those who dissent from the Church’s teaching on contraception. I hear about how the teaching makes no sense to a person, so they reject it. Somehow they come to the conclusion that because that teaching does not make sense to them, or if it does not fit into their desired lifestyle, that they can just dismiss it entirely or make it fit into their personal view as they pick and choose what they do and don’t like.

This has me worried for a great many Catholics. Statistics show that 90% or more of Catholics use artificial birth control/contraception (condoms, the pill, onanism, or any number of barrier methods, etc…). Yet, contraception is clearly and explicitly condemned in Church Doctrine. The illicitness of contraception is a matter of Doctrine that demands our assent, regardless of whether we agree or understand.

Any number of those Catholics will claim they are in union with the Church and assent to Her Authority…“except for 1 or 2 things, which isn’t a big deal” so they claim. What’s worse, is some even go so far as to obstinately oppose the teaching publicly, at the risk of causing scandal. Well, it IS a big deal, indeed.

For starters, people of such mind are in violation of Code of Cannon Law:

Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

Can. 227 The lay Christian faithful have the right to have recognized that freedom which all citizens have in the affairs of the earthly city. When using that same freedom, however, they are to take care that their actions are imbued with the spirit of the gospel and are to heed the doctrine set forth by the magisterium of the Church. In matters of opinion, moreover, they are to avoid setting forth their own opinion as the doctrine of the Church.

Some will argue that the Church teaching on contraception is a fallible one, and erroneous at that. Not so, according to Blessed Pope John Paul II. From his Apostolic Constitution, Fidei Depositum in reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Doctrinal Value of the Text
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!

The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus’ disciples (cf. Lk 22:32), as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith.

Therefore, I ask all the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pet 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.
(emphasis mine)

We all sin. we all are sinners. we all do things that are against Church’s teachings. No one escapes, not even the Pope.

But, some say the teaching is good but it’s me who sinned.
Others try to bend the law, saying the law is bad, it is me who is good.

 

[Little_One0307]

We all sin. we all are sinners. we all do things that are against Church’s teachings. No one escapes, not even the Pope.

But, some say the teaching is good but it’s me who sinned.
Others try to bend the law, saying the law is bad, it is me who is good.

It’s one thing to sin and still follow the Teachings the Church, it’s another thing to sin and not follow the Teachings of the Church. This is what is the difference.

And even us sinning does not excuse us from following All the teachings of the Church.
God bless.*

 

[LemonAndLime]

Good points for a rant post.

However, as someone has already said - we are all sinners. No one is perfect. And many people, when they sin, say that the teaching is good but they have sinned. This is why we have confession.

Don’t forgot what Jesus said about judging either.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

However, as someone has already said - we are all sinners. No one is perfect. And many people, when they sin, say that the teaching is good but they have sinned. This is why we have confession.

Don’t forgot what Jesus said about judging either.

Yes, but unfortunately too many people sin and deny that they have done so. They dismiss the teaching and justify themselves. I believe it is a work of charity to point the truth to them, even if it hurts their feelings/pride. Should we tolerate those who openly dissent and are proud of it? I don’t think so.

 

[Benadam]

Many of the mentioned Catholics see Catholic politicians standing on platforms supported by the abortion industry.

When dissenters who have this kind of visibility are not corrected, dissenters of like mind become confused about the seriousness of the teaching.

 

[LaSainte]

Actually, I believe that.to.be.a heretic, you must reject actual dogma, not just any teaching of the Church. Being a formal heretic carries with it very severe canonical penalties. If I decide that I don’t believe in abstaining from meat.on Friday during lent and choose to.ignore that particular discipline, I am not a heretic. If I reject the divinity of Christ, I am committing a heresy and the Church may declare me a heretic and excommunicate me as a.result.

The teaching on contraception is not dogmatic, but the.Church still considers its use a mortal sin. Thus, I cent be excommunicated for using contraception, but it puts.me in a state of mortal sin and I must abstain from communion or can be.denied communion by a.priest.

 

[John21652]

Good points for a rant post.

However, as someone has already said - we are all sinners. No one is perfect. And many people, when they sin, say that the teaching is good but they have sinned. This is why we have confession.

Don’t forgot what Jesus said about judging either.

Your post is tantamount to saying that Church doctrinal teaching is of little consequence and that no great effort should be put into adhering to it, because, after all, we are all sinners and it’s all too hard anyway.

That’s pathetic.

As for blandly suggesting that Jesus had something to say about judging, may I suggest that you go and read St. Paul’s First Letter To The Corinthians. For at 5:9-13 he points out that we should indeed judge other members of the Church.

He writes

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

As members of the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, we are duty bound to judge the behaviour of other members of the Church and pull them into line if necessary. The alternative is to stand idly by while other so called catholics cause the Body of Christ to wither and shrivel. St. Paul says the sinner must be cast out.

Too many so called Catholics think they can reinvent Catholicism to suit themselves. The OP is right to draw attention to this problem. Some are clever enough to attempt some form of refutation of Church teaching citing arguments which are founded in moral relativity. Some are silly enough to simply excuse their behaviour and lack of adherence to Church teaching by falling back on the tired old line of how weak we all are and how easy it is to sin. The latter excuse is worthy of contempt for its intellectual and spiritual laziness.

Those who interpret Church teaching to suit their own personal predilictions are trashing the Natural Law foundations which the Church espouses and which actually gave rise to our great western civilisation. In the process they are actually trashing the moral foundations of society. The Catholics who reinvent Catholicism to suit their own hedonistic desires are simply pretending to be Catholics. They need to do the homework and find the cogency of Church teaching, or admit they are lazy and abandon all pretence at being Catholic.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Your post is tantamount to saying that Church doctrinal teaching is of little consequence and that no great effort should be put into adhering to it, because, after all, we are all sinners and it’s all too hard anyway.

And yours is putting words into my mouth. I am stating facts. The only thing which I should have included in my post was “we should all strive to be perfect, yet accepting that sometimes we will fail” but I have a funny feeling that that wouldn’t be enough either. Is it so hard to accept that we are sinners and that it is unfair to attack people who do not stick to Church teaching 100% of the time? Do you go to confession more than once a year? Yes? In that case then, is it fair for me to accuse you of being a bad Catholic? Nope, it means you’re a sinner just like me.

That’s pathetic.

And that is nasty and unfriendly. Charity is one of the virtues remember.

As for blandly suggesting that Jesus had something to say about judging, may I suggest that you go and read St. Paul’s First Letter To The Corinthians. For at 5:9-13 he points out that we should indeed judge other members of the Church.

I think in the great Top Trumps of the Bible, Jesus trumps St Paul.

Anywho, Jesus said not to judge in the sense of to condemn someone on moral grounds, then to pass judgement. This post is doing that such thing.

However, Paul said that we should tell our brothers and sisters when they are straying into sin. This is not “judging” in the true sense of the word, no judgement is being given, it’s more like a warning or friendly advice. Say like comparing a friend warning you of trouble being compared to a judge in a court.

He writes As members of the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, we are duty bound to judge the behaviour of other members of the Church and pull them into line if necessary. The alternative is to stand idly by while other so called catholics cause the Body of Christ to wither and shrivel. St. Paul says the sinner must be cast out.

I’ve dealt with this above.

Too many so called Catholics think they can reinvent Catholicism to suit themselves. The OP is right to draw attention to this problem.

No one is denying this. This is a topic throughly discussed, several times a week on CAF. The distinction that myself and others have attempted to make, and have been responded to aggressively in turn, is that there are those who reinvent Catholicism to suit them - so dissent, and then there are those who sin like the rest of us - which technically does fall under the umbrella of “dissent” yet the difference is they know that what they’re doing is sinful, know that the Church knows best, and strive to be as the Church asks them to be. This is different to those who think they know best from the Church. Savvy?

Some are clever enough to attempt some form of refutation of Church teaching citing arguments which are founded in moral relativity. Some are silly enough to simply excuse their behaviour and lack of adherence to Church teaching by falling back on the tired old line of how weak we all are and how easy it is to sin. The latter excuse is worthy of contempt for its intellectual and spiritual laziness.

It’s a tired old line that the Church itself uses. It’s a tired old line that allows us Confession. If the Church truly did expect us to be strong at all times and think that sin was hard, would we still have confession? I don’t think so.

Those who interpret Church teaching to suit their own personal predilictions are trashing the Natural Law foundations which the Church espouses and which actually gave rise to our great western civilisation. In the process they are actually trashing the moral foundations of society. The Catholics who reinvent Catholicism to suit their own hedonistic desires are simply pretending to be Catholics. They need to do the homework and find the cogency of Church teaching, or admit they are lazy and abandon all pretence at being Catholic.

I think you have issues. Perhaps this is a pet hate of yours. However, I think you need to spend some time thinking about who the enemy is.

Quite often on CAF, all it takes is a post which disagrees with someone and that post is used as a springboard for a rant and the poster is unfairly attacked. Perhaps sometimes it’s best to simply read the post and respond to what they’ve said, not what you think they may be saying or what you dislike.

 

[Spock]

Statistics show that 90% or more of Catholics use artificial birth control/contraception (condoms, the pill, onanism, or any number of barrier methods, etc…).

Awesome! Where does that statistics come from? I would love to see it.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Awesome! Where does that statistics come from? I would love to see it.

Just Google. Most newspapers have published some statistic saying that.

 

[TrueLight]

The OP is speaking specifically about those who reject church teaching because they don’t think it makes sense or they don’t agree with it.

I don’t believe the OP is referring to those who struggle with sin but agree with Church teaching. That is what confession is for.

For example, say someone uses contraception.

The one who knows he is sinning knows it is wrong but cannot fathom having more children and hope that god will have mercy because of their particular situation. That one will refrain from receiving communion.

The one who disagrees that contraception is wrong and thinks the Church needs to get with the times will in fact receive communion, because they don’t agree they are sinning.

Both are sinning, but one of them, to me has the worst attitude.

 

[Spock]

Just Google. Most newspapers have published some statistic saying that.

Well, usually newspapers are not the most reliable source of information. I was asking the poster of the OP, since he/she might have done the research already. But, you are right, the info is out there. Like 98%… wow very interesting, indeed. Maybe there is hope for the world yet (tongue in cheek remark!)

 

[AntalKalnoky]

The importanrt thing is not to sin Against the teachings of The Church, which is Christ on Earth, in Morality especially. Vivat Jesu Have to watch Who publishes What statistics; Many Have an agenda to ‘prove’ their viewpoint. Those are Not Valid polls or studies, by the Rules of OPolling or statistics, whiich Per Se are supposed to be Unbiased, Neutral.
Very important Thread; rating it 5 star. in my morality opinion.

 

[Rence]

I see so often, even on this forum, people who say they are Catholic, yet reject Church teaching as though their opinion somehow overrides Church teaching. I’ve seen this happen with the teaching on Hell (whether or not is exists), the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, contraceptives, witness to Truth, etc…

Everyone is at a different stage of development in their life as a Catholic. There are those that have no problems whatsoever with any of the teachings and accept it with blind faith and have absolutely no problem with compliance. Though…I’ve never met such a person in real life. There’s always something out there that someone has a problem understanding or being compliant. Others struggle along with their stumbling blocks, even ignore them, and concentrate on the teachings they can relate to and have little difficulty with compliance. It’s unnatural to go against one’s conscience and follow a rule when they* truly *don’t believe it’s correct or reasonable, and the reasons for such a teaching doesn’t make sense to them. I realize that bothers you, and I understand where you’re coming from, but understanding and acceptance isn’t something that just pops out of the air for most people. They have to work their way though their stumbling blocks. I have few stumbling blocks but they’re big ones, and they bother the most traditional and conservative people on the forum. I hate that it does that to people, but I can’t lie to myself or about myself either. It’s difficult to have meaningful dialogs with people who can’t acknowledge your hardships and who value your opininon so little. It doesn’t make it easier to learn or to even accept a difficult teaching. Sometimes, it makes it worse.

But most prevalent among these are those who dissent from the Church’s teaching on contraception. I hear about how the teaching makes no sense to a person, so they reject it. Somehow they come to the conclusion that because that teaching does not make sense to them, or if it does not fit into their desired lifestyle, that they can just dismiss it entirely or make it fit into their personal view as they pick and choose what they do and don’t like.

This has me worried for a great many Catholics. Statistics show that 90% or more of Catholics use artificial birth control/contraception (condoms, the pill, onanism, or any number of barrier methods, etc…). Yet, contraception is clearly and explicitly condemned in Church Doctrine. The illicitness of contraception is a matter of Doctrine that demands our assent, regardless of whether we agree or understand.

The Church’s teaching regarding birth control a big stumbling block for many people, and the Vatican knows it is, which is why they mentioned it in Humanae Vitae. It’s a very difficult teaching for many to understand, and even when the reasons are understood they’re not accepted by many. The Church that when it was written. It’s a very big stumbling block for me as well, though I am compliant — but I am not at a stage in my life where I am struggling either. I’m in a good place in my life. I am unmarried and unattached. So this teaching doesn’t affect me despite the fact that I don’t agree with it and find the explantations inadequate at best. I can understand people who are truly struggling and as a result find problems with this teaching. They have serious financial difficulties, emotional difficulties, spiritual difficulties, some are physically threatened by the teaching.

Any number of those Catholics will claim they are in union with the Church and assent to Her Authority…“except for 1 or 2 things, which isn’t a big deal” so they claim. What’s worse, is some even go so far as to obstinately oppose the teaching publicly, at the risk of causing scandal. Well, it IS a big deal, indeed.

Well, there’s not too much they can do about it and live within their conscience. You don’t have a problem with compliance with this teaching because it doesn’t affect you like it does those who are not following it. For someone who is completely against it, it’s difficult to set aside their values and beliefs over something they don’t believe in, especially when doing so would cause great hardship for them and their families. They can leave the Church, but the Church teaches that once someone is Baptized Catholic they are forever Catholic – so it doesn’t make sense to leave since their status in the Church is the same regardless of whether or not they follow said teaching (any teaching). And if they leave, they won’t find something that teaches all the teachings of the Church that they believe. So they probably just do the best they can as they grow and develop as Catholics.

 

[Rence]

For starters, people of such mind are in violation of Code of Cannon Law:

Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

Can. 227 The lay Christian faithful have the right to have recognized that freedom which all citizens have in the affairs of the earthly city. When using that same freedom, however, they are to take care that their actions are imbued with the spirit of the gospel and are to heed the doctrine set forth by the magisterium of the Church. In matters of opinion, moreover, they are to avoid setting forth their own opinion as the doctrine of the Church.

This teaching basically, in a nutshell, says: You must follow your conscience, BUT only if it agrees with the Church’s teachings. And if it doesn’t, you have to change by not thinking, but letting the Church think for you. And that’s tough to swallow for many people. It’s a double standard: Yes, follow your conscience, but only if it agrees with ours. And yes, it may be the epitome of faith, but some have hard time letting go of their values and beliefs and going against their grain by taking the plunge and having blind faith in the Church.

Some will argue that the Church teaching on contraception is a fallible one, and erroneous at that. Not so, according to Blessed Pope John Paul II. From his Apostolic Constitution, Fidei Depositum in reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

It doesn’t help that a lot of people were told it was a matter of conscience. When my mom was a young adult, her priest told her it was a matter of conscience and it sticks with her today. She was otherwise (as you say above) a good Catholic and very conservative. But the advise that the priest gave her stuck.

 

[Corki]

Actually, I believe that.to.be.a heretic, you must reject actual dogma, not just any teaching of the Church. Being a formal heretic carries with it very severe canonical penalties. If I decide that I don’t believe in abstaining from meat.on Friday during lent and choose to.ignore that particular discipline, I am not a heretic. If I reject the divinity of Christ, I am committing a heresy and the Church may declare me a heretic and excommunicate me as a.result.

The teaching on contraception is not dogmatic, but the.Church still considers its use a mortal sin. Thus, I cent be excommunicated for using contraception, but it puts.me in a state of mortal sin and I must abstain from communion or can be.denied communion by a.priest.

The teaching on contraception is not dogmatic but neither is it just a disciplinary matter. A person can’t be excommunicated for using contraception but they can be excommunicated for taking a public stance in favor of using contraception and expressing public dissent against the Church.

The Church has the internal forum (Confession) and the external. Using contraception is a matter for the internal forum. ** Publically advocating **it can trigger penalites in the external forum as at least one priest who is now forbidden from teaching at a Catholic university found out.

It’s one thing to sin and still follow the Teachings the Church, it’s another thing to sin and not follow the Teachings of the Church. This is what is the difference.

And even us sinning does not excuse us from following All the teachings of the Church.
God bless.*

If I may use your capital punishment stance that you mentioned as an example:

If you don’t agree with the Church on capital punishment, you are still dissenting. However, unless you are called upon to actually admininster a lethal injection, your dissent itself won’t lead to serious sin. At worst, you might be guilty of material cooperation if you supported someone who stood against the Church on this issue (ie in an election or for some honor). How serious an issue this is would be between you and your confessor.

If you don’t agree with the Church on contraception and keep it to yourself, you are in the exact same situation. However, if that disagreement leads to actually using contraception or encouraging your spouse to use contraception, there is nothing separating you from the sin itself. It is no longer a case of judgement but of objectively sinful action.

 

[benedictus2]

It’s one thing to sin and still follow the Teachings the Church, it’s another thing to sin and not follow the Teachings of the Church. This is what is the difference.

Sorry but this does not make sense. To sin is to not follow the teachings of the Church.

I think what you mean is - it is one thing to sin and still recognize the correctness of the teaching of the church and completely another to sin and declare that the teaching of the Church is wrong anyway that is why you don’t follow them.

The first means that there is a chance for repentance because we have clear goal posts. The latter implies that there is no need for repentance because there is no sin anyway. That is the scary bit because what is bad is now deemed good and what is good is now deemed bad.

 

[ahs]

Good points for a rant post.

However, as someone has already said - we are all sinners. No one is perfect. And many people, when they sin, say that the teaching is good but they have sinned. This is why we have confession.

Don’t forgot what Jesus said about judging either.

You are correct. We are all sinners. When I sin, it is because I have failed and I regret it because I accept the techings of the Church fully and want to assent fully to them. My OP is about those who disagree with particular teachings, dissent from them, and actually don’t think they are sinning.

You are also right about what Jesus said about judging. We are to admonish one another by pointing out the sin and call each other to perfect holiness. Bookcat posted a beautiful article about this and I will go find it and post it here for you. Please be patient.

Actually, I believe that.to.be.a heretic, you must reject actual dogma, not just any teaching of the Church. Being a formal heretic carries with it very severe canonical penalties. If I decide that I don’t believe in abstaining from meat.on Friday during lent and choose to.ignore that particular discipline, I am not a heretic. If I reject the divinity of Christ, I am committing a heresy and the Church may declare me a heretic and excommunicate me as a.result.

The teaching on contraception is not dogmatic, but the.Church still considers its use a mortal sin. Thus, I cent be excommunicated for using contraception, but it puts.me in a state of mortal sin and I must abstain from communion or can be.denied communion by a.priest.

To be a heretic, you must obstinately reject a teaching of the Church to which we are required to give assent. I showed you in the OP how the teachings within the Catechism (one of those being the teaching on contraception) are teachings to which Catholics are required to give assent. That is why I am so troubled. So many obstinately reject this teaching, and make as many excuses for rejecting it as possible. Please refer to you Catechism for the Church teaching on heresey and scandal.

The OP is speaking specifically about those who reject church teaching because they don’t think it makes sense or they don’t agree with it.

I don’t believe the OP is referring to those who struggle with sin but agree with Church teaching. That is what confession is for.

For example, say someone uses contraception.

The one who knows he is sinning knows it is wrong but cannot fathom having more children and hope that god will have mercy because of their particular situation. That one will refrain from receiving communion.

The one who disagrees that contraception is wrong and thinks the Church needs to get with the times will in fact receive communion, because they don’t agree they are sinning.

Both are sinning, but one of them, to me has the worst attitude.

Yes. This is what I’m getting at. The people I am addressing in the OP are those that don’t even feel they are sinning because they have convinced themselves that they are not sinning, regardless of what the Church teaches.