Catholics who personally Schism: SSPX, Orthodox, Anglican or Polish National Church

[Peter_J]

For Catholics who personally Schism to either follow SSPX, Orthodoxy, Anglican or the Polish National Church, what does the Catholic Church say about them.

Hi 1Tim215Mommy,

A few thoughts:

First off, I quite agree with your calling it “schisming” and not “apostasizing”.

Second, I think it would be a bit difficult to cite a document that addresses your question as such (this also seems confirmed by the fact that nobody has yet produced one here); however, this speaks to it in-reverse:

1. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection.

• DECREE ON ECUMENISM
  UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

So in particular, schisming from the Catholic Church would in fact (in our view I mean) be a sin – although clearly if you were never Catholic then you never committed said sin. (And even wrt those who have, we cannot judge their guilt; we only say that their action was objectively sinful.) Likewise, many times when speaking to Orthodox who are critical of the fact that I’m non-Orthodox, I have pointed out to them that I did not schism from Orthodoxy, since I was never Orthodox to begin with.

Thirdly, perhaps it would help the conversation along if you were to ask something specific, e.g. “Orthodoxy teaches (blank) concerning people who schism from the Orthodox Church. Is that similar to what Catholics believe concerning people who schism from the Catholic Church?”

Blessings,

 

[EvangelCatholic]

To pray for our brothers and sisters, that they come back in communion, but love them where ever they are. I actually extend that to all who believe in the God of the Bible and Jesus Christ.

What a lovely greeting

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Because the Church is the only place where the fullness of God’s Truth is found, and Truth is necessary for salvation (Jn 14:6).

I know that you recite it; I meant that you don’t mean it the way the Nicene Fathers did.

I’m afraid that’s an unorthodox understanding of apostolic succession.

Because the Church is the only place where the fullness of God’s Truth is found, and Truth is necessary for salvation (Jn 14:6).

I agree that no one comes to the Father but by Jesus. I don’t agree that one has to be a member of any church or denomination. The church is the body of believers throughout the world, regardless of denominational affiliation. This church possesses the fullness of truth.

I know that you recite it; I meant that you don’t mean it the way the Nicene Fathers did.

No, they agreed the church is the body of believers throughout the world just as I. What they didn’t agree with was that the church is the body of believers with the bishop of Rome at its head holding sole, supreme, eternal jurisdiction over all.

I’m afraid that’s an unorthodox understanding of apostolic succession.

Fine. It’s not that big of a deal for me anyway. I have never heard it mentioned or discussed at all in my church.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I am a convert and I suppose a deconvert from your church.

Does that mean in my present state I am eternally condemned even though I confess Christ and all the doctrines of the creeds?

Thankfully the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue answers the question:

On the church’s apostolicity, the dialogue works within the horizon of the Lutheran-Catholic consensus on justification by the grace of Christ and agreement in confessing the work of the Holy Spirit in gathering believers into the church. From this basis and notwithstanding remaining differences, Lutherans and Catholics agree at a basic level on what makes a church apostolic and they acknowledge, each with characteristic accents, the true apostolicity of each other’s churches.
lutheranupress.org/Books/…-of-the-Church

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Thankfully the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue answers the question:

Correct link:
raadvankerken.nl/fman/3246.pdf

 

[JonNC]

For Catholics who personally Schism to either follow SSPX, Orthodoxy, Anglican or the Polish National Church, what does the Catholic Church say about them.

What does the Orthodox Church say about those who personally Schism to the Catholic Church?

Jon

 

[adf417]

What does the Orthodox Church say about those who personally Schism to the Catholic Church?

Jon

Jon I often wonder about your rhetorical rebuttal questions like this every time there is a chance to compare CC to OC originality as though there is no one capably of answering these cute retorts. You do know there truly is one correct answer, right?

Peace good brother!!!

 

[JonNC]

Jon I often wonder about your rhetorical rebuttal questions like this every time there is a chance to compare CC to OC originality as though there is no one capably of answering these cute retorts. You do know there truly is one correct answer, right?

Peace good brother!!!

I can see why you might think of it as rhetorical, the way I phrased it. Sorry. I was really looking for an answer. The OP self-identifies as Orthodox.

Jon

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

It’s seen as a sin. What level: Venial or Mortal?

Hi 1Tim215MomSin
A few thoughts:

First off, I quite agree with your calling it “schisming” and not “apostasizing”.

Second, I think it would be a bit difficult to cite a document that addresses your question as such (this also seems confirmed by the fact that nobody has yet produced one here); however, this speaks to it in-reverse:

1. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection.

• DECREE ON ECUMENISM
  UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

So in particular, schisming from the Catholic Church would in fact (in our view I mean) be a sin – although clearly if you were never Catholic then you never committed said sin. (And even wrt those who have, we cannot judge their guilt; we only say that their action was objectively sinful.) Likewise, many times when speaking to Orthodox who are critical of the fact that I’m non-Orthodox, I have pointed out to them that I did not schism from Orthodoxy, since I was never Orthodox to begin with.

Thirdly, perhaps it would help the conversation along if you were to ask something specific, e.g. “Orthodoxy teaches (blank) concerning people who schism from the Orthodox Church. Is that similar to what Catholics believe concerning people who schism from the Catholic Church?”

Blessings,

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

What does the Orthodox Church say about those who personally Schism to the Catholic Church?

Jon

Just that they left the Church.

We know God it’s merciful and saves those inside and outside the Church. It’s harder outside the Church, but not impossible and being inside the Church is no guarantee of salvation.

 

[JonNC]

Just that they left the Church.

We know God it’s merciful and saves those inside and outside the Church. It’s harder outside the Church, but not impossible and being inside the Church is no guarantee of salvation.

Thanks. That’s a measured and reasonable approach. On the toccasion that a Lutheran who is becoming Catholic posts their intention, I try to make sure to offer best wishes

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Thirdly, perhaps it would help the conversation along if you were to ask something specific, e.g. “Orthodoxy teaches (blank) concerning people who schism from the Orthodox Church. Is that similar to what Catholics believe concerning people who schism from the Catholic Church?”

Blessings,

What does the Orthodox Church say about those who personally Schism to the Catholic Church?

Jon

Now Jon, nobody likes a copy cat. :tsktsk:

(Kidding.)

 

[JonNC]

Now Jon, nobody likes a copy cat. :tsktsk:

(Kidding.)

Oops.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Just that they left the Church.

We know God it’s merciful and saves those inside and outside the Church. It’s harder outside the Church, but not impossible and being inside the Church is no guarantee of salvation.

Well said. That’s pretty much how I’d view those who “schism” from the Roman Communion.

It’s seen as a sin. What level: Venial or Mortal?

Well, I think the best answer is that it can be a mortal sin. Keep in mind that we don’t judge the guilt of the person who leaves. (If Steve b is reading this thread, perhaps he can provide a citation.)

 

[cmodrmac]

" That they’re in schism and have a duty to place themselves back into communion with the Pope. However, the schism of Protestants (including Anglicans) is understood to be much, much more severe than those of the Orthodox, SSPX, and Polish Nationals"

Really-and on what do you base this conclusion-the Theology of the Anglicans and the PNCC is virtually identical-they were for a long time in communion -broke up over the issue of female priests-

The Orthodox believe the RC are the schismatics-just ask one

 

[Peter_J]

" That they’re in schism and have a duty to place themselves back into communion with the Pope. However, the schism of Protestants (including Anglicans) is understood to be much, much more severe than those of the Orthodox, SSPX, and Polish Nationals"

Really-and on what do you base this conclusion-the Theology of the Anglicans and the PNCC is virtually identical-they were for a long time in communion -broke up over the issue of female priests-

I have to disagree with both parts of the highlighted statement. The PNCC is catholic, Anglicans are catholic and protestant, so I don’t believe the theology can be called “virtually identical”. Also, they were never in full communion, although they did use to have an intercommunion agreement.

As far as the idea that Rome supposedly want to convert Orthodox to Catholicism, let me put it this way: whom should I believe, Rome who says she doesn’t, or some people I know virtually nothing about (excepting that they have internet access) who say that she does?

 

[JamesTheJust]

As far as the idea that Rome supposedly want to convert Orthodox to Catholicism, let me put it this way: whom should I believe, Rome who says she doesn’t, or some people I know virtually nothing about (excepting that they have internet access) who say that she does?

What exactly is meant by this? That the Orthodox have no duty to place themselves in communion with the Holy See?

 

[GKC]

I have to disagree with both parts of the highlighted statement. The PNCC is catholic, Anglicans are catholic and protestant, so I don’t believe the theology can be called “virtually identical”. Also, they were never in full communion, although they did use to have an intercommunion agreement.

As far as the idea that Rome supposedly want to convert Orthodox to Catholicism, let me put it this way: whom should I believe, Rome who says she doesn’t, or some people I know virtually nothing about (excepting that they have internet access) who say that she does?

I’m not sure that the PNCC/Anglican relationship begun in 1946, and ended in 1978 (with respect to TEC, at least) was of a different order from that established with the OCs/Utrecht in 1931. They were both based on the Agreement of Bonn.

GKC

 

[adf417]

I agree that no one comes to the Father but by Jesus. I don’t agree that one has to be a member of any church or denomination. The church is the body of believers throughout the world, regardless of denominational affiliation. This church possesses the fullness of truth.

Then you must believe also that Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons are part of this body of believers. right? They do come to the Father through Jesus. Not in the same way you and I do but who’s keeping track, right?

No, they agreed the church is the body of believers throughout the world just as I. What they didn’t agree with was that the church is the body of believers with the bishop of Rome at its head holding sole, supreme, eternal jurisdiction over all.

Fine. It’s not that big of a deal for me anyway. ** I have never heard it mentioned or discussed at all in my church**.

Proof your church is not of original origin. See first council of Constantinople in 381 for the four marks of the church. If you recite the Nicene creed this little adage is important to know. It also helps tie up the loose ends in your second paragraph above.

Peace!!!

 

[Peter_J]

As far as the idea that Rome supposedly want to convert Orthodox to Catholicism, let me put it this way: whom should I believe, Rome who says she doesn’t, or some people I know virtually nothing about (excepting that they have internet access) who say that she does?

What exactly is meant by this?

My apologies, it was late and I didn’t want to write a long post. I should have answered the question thus: “Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other”

• the Balamand Statement