Catholics who read Protestant Bibles

[Huiou_Theou]

A recent movie on the Gospel of John used the Bible without modification for its script, and that Bible was the Good News Bible (a.k.a. Today’s English Version, TEV) so I was able to follow the movie on DVD with my Bible open since I have a Japanese-English double column New testament with the English being the Good News Bible.

Ahh… the Pun in English is the only humor where the object is to elicit the largest possible groans from the pseudo ginua pigs. You didn’t happen to convert to Catholicism through the Franciscans, did you?

I’m curious, from that bible, what is the Japanese version of Luke 1:28, and especially John 19:28,30. The best sense, in English, from the Latin and the Greek at the cross is “consummate” (not as the verb, but the noun);
eg: it contains especially the idea of being and doesn’t really translate.
It is a Greek word equivalent to YHWH in Hebrew; Am, was, will be.
Compare Jesus’ last words to those in Luke 23:40 to understand my point.

Luke appears to be the only one who understood Jesus final cry in the full double-meaning of the word. Luke chose a normal Greek word – far less formal sounding – than did John; I suppose Luke would be more like some simpler Hiragana, and John would choose something much more polished and formal.

 

[EricBr]

Eric wrote: The reason that I sometimes listen to a Protestant Bible is because it is the only free audio bible that I can find on the internet. So, since I have already studied the Catholic Bible many times (and still study it), I find the free Protestant audio bible to be very interesting and also very similar to the Catholic Bible.​

I poked around on Google and found that there are several auido recordings available (and some WWW sites offering free access to it) of the complete Catholic Bible in, variously, the Douay-Rheims-Challoner and R.S.V. Catholic versions. You might want to try looking for these!

Thanks Jerry.

I have been trying to find a free Catholic audio bible online, but I just haven’t been able to find one.

Could you possibly send or post the website address for it?

Thanks again and God bless.

 

[patrick457]

That sounds a lot like Young’s Literal Translation. It’s very refreshing.

E-xactly.

 

[Russ_of_Tokyo]

Ahh… the Pun in English is the only humor where the object is to elicit the largest possible groans from the pseudo ginua pigs. You didn’t happen to convert to Catholicism through the Franciscans, did you?

I’m curious, from that bible, what is the Japanese version of Luke 1:28, and especially John 19:28,30. The best sense, in English, from the Latin and the Greek at the cross is “consummate” (not as the verb, but the noun);
eg: it contains especially the idea of being and doesn’t really translate.
It is a Greek word equivalent to YHWH in Hebrew; Am, was, will be.
Compare Jesus’ last words to those in Luke 23:40 to understand my point.

Luke appears to be the only one who understood Jesus final cry in the full double-meaning of the word. Luke chose a normal Greek word – far less formal sounding – than did John; I suppose Luke would be more like some simpler Hiragana, and John would choose something much more polished and formal.

An appointment I had with a Franciscan priest in Tokyo actually derailed my Catholic-bound train for a few months, but I won’t go into detail!

Luke say’s OMEDETOU (congrats) for the greeting and MEGUMARETA KATA for the Greek kecharitomene. MEGUMARETA is a common description for a person who has been blessed. Kata is a respectful way of referring to a person.

John has NASHITOGERARETA which is sort of a passive verb for something that has been completed. In typically vague Japanese it does not even have a subject, just the verb standing alone.

At least that’s how I have seen these used in the past. Luke the physician might have had more complex Greek than John the fisherman but their Japanese is pretty much on the same level.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

I have scrambled up things in my addled pate about the request to link a Catholic audio Bible. I am not good at these things. There are quite a few free R.S.V.-C.E. and Douay-Rheims-Challoner audio Bibles; I found them by searching on Google (text about them, not directly on YouTube) “Douay-Rheims audio Bible”. Anyway, this one seems to be more straightforward than some of the links: douayrheimsaudiobible.com/purchase-the-douay-rheims-audio-bible/

I hope that this helps!

 

[Jerry_Parker]

THE RIGHT TO ARM BEARS!

Russ wrote about “the right to arm bears”! Wow, Russ, that one is great! You have such direct connexions with the critters, now gun-totin´ bears as well as the coons. When hunting season arrives here in the Abitibi, my heart is with all every persecuted bear, moose, or stag being chased down for his hide and/or horns. They need to arm themselves so that the odds are a little more even! Maybe the raccoons could benefit from some guerilla war tactics on behalf of all animals. Would you want to coach these cunning coons?

 

[EricBr]

I have scrambled up things in my addled pate about the request to link a Catholic audio Bible. I am not good at these things. There are quite a few free R.S.V.-C.E. and Douay-Rheims-Challoner audio Bibles; I found them by searching on Google (text about them, not directly on YouTube) “Douay-Rheims audio Bible”. Anyway, this one seems to be more straightforward than some of the links: douayrheimsaudiobible.com/purchase-the-douay-rheims-audio-bible/

I hope that this helps!

Thanks again for the info. However, I was really looking for a free Catholic bible online since I have not yet found one? Do you know of any free Catholic audio bibles online?

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Eric wrote: Thanks again for the info. However, I was really looking for a free Catholic bible online since I have not yet found one? Do you know of any free Catholic audio bibles online?​

I did see some such. However, the WWW sites that provide them are technically a bit confusing to me. The best thing is to use the search strategy that I mentioned earlier and to check out the sites for yourself. I don`t want to commend a site to you that may have some e-traps lying in wait for the unwary user. You may be more computer literate than I am at using such WWW sites.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

I had written (adapted a bit here):

THE RIGHT TO ARM BEARS!

Russ wrote about “the right to arm bears”! Wow, Russ, that one is great! You have such direct connexions with the critters, now gun-totin´ bears as well as the ´coons. When hunting season arrives here in the Abitibi, my heart is with all every persecuted bear, moose, or stag being chased down for his hide and/or horns. They need to arm themselves so that the odds are a little more even! Maybe the raccoons could benefit everybody and everycritter by applying some guerilla war tactics on behalf of all animals. Would you want to coach these cunning ´coons?​

You know, Russ, there is a good apostolate awaiting you in all this work (bears accepted as observers) with raccoons! You could have Bible studies with them. They will learn, sitting all around you at your feet, which Bibles not to chew up. You can teach the eager lil critters how to read a Catholic Bible, too (preferably, to avoid temptation, at off-hours for feeding). For doctrine, one could see about finding someone to adapt the C.C.C. for ´coon consultation, as it were as sort of *Coon´s Catechism for of the Catholic Church*. That title might annoy some African heritage Catholics, however, but you could work with them to find an alternative title acceptable to the raccoons and to these human Catholics alike. You will have a great time out there in the forest! Be sure, though, to go armed with mosquito repellent; it gets mighty bitey out there in the woods!

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Thanks again for the info. However, I was really looking for a free Catholic bible online since I have not yet found one? Do you know of any free Catholic audio bibles online?

Actually, the Douay Rheems is a Catholic Bible translated mostly from the Latin Vulgate. It’s a contemporary of the KJV, so the older English is often used – thee thou, etc… but that’s really an aesthetic preference more than a Catholic/Protestant issue.

The RSV-CE (1st edition), is also a Catholic Bible – eg: The Catholic Edition, with the Catholic Church’s approval and was even approved & ratified for use as a Lectionary in the past at mass, and this was never rescinded in spite of the NAB’s later approval. The preference of NAB over RSVCE, I suppose, is on a bishop by bishop basis and – not the Vatican’s decree barring any exception.

In Canada, I think, as an anomaly … the RSV 2nd edition / NRSV has been used; but I don’t recall that there was ever ratification of the decision from any of the Vatican offices/pope/CDF/etc. and I think that choice is restricted to Canada alone – with some friction with the rest of the Church… If I have jumbled up any details, perhaps the Canadians on the forum can fill in proper details.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Huiou Thiou wrote: In Canada, I think, as an anomaly … the RSV 2nd edition / NRSV has been used; but I don’t recall that there was ever ratification of the decision from any of the Vatican offices/pope/CDF/etc. and I think that choice is restricted to Canada alone – with some friction with the rest of the Church. If I have jumbled up any details, perhaps the Canadians on the forum can fill in proper details.​

Well, I dont know about that being an anomaly here in Canada. The English-speaking Catholic national church of each country has its own choice in the matter. The N.R.S.V.-C.E. is used here in Canada (though, doubtless, we would do much better with the R.S.V.-C.E.2). In England, it is the Catholic Truth Societys adaptation of the Jerusalem Bible that is the one approved for use in the liturgy. In some new editions of the 1962 Missale Romanum (for use by members of the congregation at Latin Masses), the Douay-Rheims-Challoner Version is printed for the Lessons, so I presume (unless the Lessons, too, are read in Latin) that the priest would be reading them in English from the Challoner Bible.

I did go once to Mass at a church in New Hampshire or Vermont (I forget which), when attemding a music festival in the U. S. of A., at which the priest used the Jerusalem Bible. I guess that this would be acceptable practice, unless the priest (quite faithful, orthodox, and artistically inclined) were taking liberties or if his parish had been made an exception (a good one!) to having to use the awful N.A.B. All of these Bibles are accepted Catholic ones, whatever the liturgical criteria may be.

 

[EricBr]

Thanks for all the information. I am still looking for a free Catholic audio bible online, but I may just have to buy one or keep using the King James for now.

I actually like using the American Standard Catholic bible since it is very easy to understand, and is also used by the pope, vatican, and and many of the Catholic Churches.

I guess everyone has a personal preferance on this issue.

God Bless :bible1:

 

[porthos11]

In Canada, I think, as an anomaly … the RSV 2nd edition / NRSV has been used; but I don’t recall that there was ever ratification of the decision from any of the Vatican offices/pope/CDF/etc. and I think that choice is restricted to Canada alone – with some friction with the rest of the Church… If I have jumbled up any details, perhaps the Canadians on the forum can fill in proper details.

It was an anomaly for over a decade. The Canadian bishops printed an NRSV lectionary and was granted “interim” approval in 1992. In 2003, Rome required revisions (due to the NRSV’s inclusive language). After revision, the new Canadian lectionary was granted recognitio in 2007 and begun to be read in Advent of 2008.

The Canadian lectionary is therefore fully approved and is no longer an anomaly. Today, the Canadian lectionary is the only approved lectionary based on the NRSV. It’s the only approved edition for Masses in the Ordinary form in English.

That said, they should simply have done what the Anglican Use parishes did and simply bought the Ignatius RSV lectionary and saved themselves a lot of trouble.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Porthos wrote: *The Canadian lectionary is therefore fully approved and is no longer an anomaly. Today, the Canadian lectionary is the only approved lectionary based on the NRSV. It’s the only approved edition for Masses in the Ordinary form in English.

That said, they should simply have done what the Anglican Use parishes did and simply bought the Ignatius RSV lectionary and saved themselves a lot of trouble.*​

I was not aware of just how “hairy” all these tangles had become! I guess that the Vatican got the better, at last, of our less than stellar Canadian bishops and of their too-peculiar inclinations. Good!

As usual, the Anglican Use Catholic parishes have done better and more wisely than the rest of the Church!

 

[tom2f]

My friend, obviously my point has not been made clearly enough. It isnt up to you to think what you will. The Church made a determination, and now you can either have faith in that determination made by the church, and follow it, or you can be a cafeteria Catholic who is also a heretic, i hope you take the first option. By the way, you missed another thing, within the Church, i am an adult, not a kid, or a youthful child, an adult. In other, simpler words, i am on the same level as you.

Your faith is evident, but your logic does fall short. In 1540 there were few non-Catholic bible translations, and they were usually prepared to satisfy the arguments of the preparing party. As has been mentioned, much has transpired since then and I’m not even sure that comndemnation/prohabition would even be supported by the Holy See in this day - AS A BLANKET STATEMENT. That said, I am expressing myself before checking, but I’m on the way to the Vatican site - right now
In Christ, Tom2F

 

[Russ_of_Tokyo]

All this talk of ministering to bears is getting hard to bear. They might follow me to mass and I wouldn’t want to walk into Church with a bear behind (maybe I meant bare behind).

Regarding the lectionary of Anglican Use parishes, it’s too bad other countries haven’t followed Japan’s example and produced a common Bible (although the RSV / RSV-CE comes very close). When I converted from the Anglican Church, it was seamless in many ways. I only had to walk a few blocks from the Anglican worship to the Catholic Mass, and the readings were exactly the same: same passages and same Bible. And for the past several years the Lord’s Prayer has also been identical since they agreed on a common version.

Agreeing to a common Bible came at a cost, though.The Catholics had to make the biggest concessions by changing the way they pronounced many Bible names to conform to the Protestant pronunciation, including the name of Jesus: from IEZUSU to IESU.

 

[patrick457]

An appointment I had with a Franciscan priest in Tokyo actually derailed my Catholic-bound train for a few months, but I won’t go into detail!

Luke say’s OMEDETOU (congrats) for the greeting and MEGUMARETA KATA for the Greek kecharitomene. MEGUMARETA is a common description for a person who has been blessed. Kata is a respectful way of referring to a person.

John has NASHITOGERARETA which is sort of a passive verb for something that has been completed. In typically vague Japanese it does not even have a subject, just the verb standing alone.

As in Greek. For Luke:

Transliterated Hepburn (The New Testament in Japanese, 1880): Medetashi megumaruru mono yo, Shu nanji to tomo ni imasu: nanji wa onna no uchi nite saiwai naru mono nari.

Shin’yaku Zensho (1882): 慶たし惠まるる〻者よ　主なんぢと偕に在す　爾ハ女の中にて福なる者なり (Medetashi megumaruru mono yo, Shu nanji to tomo ni imasu: nandzi =nanji] wa won’na =on’na] no uchi nite saihahi =saiwai] naru mono nari.)

Japanese Orthodox Translation (1902): 恩寵を蒙れる者、慶べよ、主は爾と偕にす、爾は女の中に祝福せられたり。 (Onchō ni kaumureru =kōmureru] mono, yorokobe yo, Shu wa nandzi =nanji] to tomo ni su. Nandzi wa won’na =on’na] no uchi ni shukufuku seraretari)

Raguet (1910): 慶たし、恩寵に満てる者よ、主汝と共に在す。汝は女の中にて祝せられたる者なり (Medetashi, onchō ni miteru mono yo, Shu nandzi =nanji] to tomo ni mashimasu. Nandzi wa won’na =on’na] no uchi nite shuku seraretaru mono nari)

Taishō Revised New Testament (Taishō-kaiyaku, 1917/1950): めでたし、惠まるる者よ、主なんぢと偕に在せり (Medetashi, megumaruru mono yo, Shu nandzi =nanji] to tomo ni imaseri)

Colloquial Version (Kōgo-yaku, 1954): 恵まれた女よ、おめでとう、主があなたと共におられます (Megumareta on’na yo, omedetō, Shu wa anata to tomo ni oraremasu)

New Revised Translation (Shin Kaiyaku, 1970): おめでとう、恵まれた方。主があなたとともにおられます。｛あなたはどの女よりも祝福された方です。｝(Omedetō, megumareta kata. Shu ga anata to tomo ni oraremasu. [Anata wa dono on’na yori mo shukufuku sareta kata desu])

New Interconfessional Translation (Shin Kyōdō-yaku, 1987): おめでとう、恵まれた方。主があなたと共におられる。 (Omedetō, megumareta kata. Shu ga anata to tomo ni orareru.)

Web Bible (Denmō Seisho, 2001): 喜べ，大いに恵まれた者よ。主があなたと共におられる。女たちの中であなたは幸いな人だ！ (Yorokobe, ōi ni megumareta mono yo. Shu ga anata to tomo ni orareru. On’na-tachi no naka de anata wa saiwai na hito da)

For John:

Hepburn (1872): おはりぬ (Oharinu =Owarinu])

Transliterated Hepburn (The New Testament in Japanese, 1880): Koto owarinu

Shin’yaku Zensho (1882): 事竟ぬ (Koto oharinu =owarinu)

Japanese Orthodox Translation (1902): 成れり (Nareri)

Raguet (1910): 成り終れり (Nari wohareri =owareri])

Taishō Revised New Testament (Taishō-kaiyaku, 1917/1950): 事畢りぬ (Koto woharinu =owarinu)

Colloquial Version (Kōgo-yaku, 1954): すべてが終った (Subete ga owatta)

New Revised Translation (Shin Kaiyaku, 1970): 完了した (Kanryō shita)

New Interconfessional Translation (Shin Kyōdō-yaku, 1987): 成し遂げられた (Nashi togerareta)

Web Bible (Denmō Seisho, 2001): 完了した (Kanryō shita)

 

[patrick457]

Agreeing to a common Bible came at a cost, though.The Catholics had to make the biggest concessions by changing the way they pronounced many Bible names to conform to the Protestant pronunciation, including the name of Jesus: from IEZUSU to IESU.

Iezusu (イエズス) is from the Latin Iesus. While Japanese Catholics AFAIK increasingly use Iesu (the preferred transliteration of the name in Protestant circles since the 19th century), the former transliteration is still used for the older, ‘traditional’ translations of prayers. Not to mention that the Jesuits are still called Iezusu-kai. The Japanese Orthodox, meanwhile, still refer to Iisusu Harisutosu (イイスス・ハリストス, from Church Slavonic Iисусъ Христосъ Iisus Hristos) to this day.

 

[Russ_of_Tokyo]

It is significant that in the Japanese mass we read Iesu in the scripture and still sing Iezusu. One priest I know uses the older Iezusu even when he reads the Gospel (and he’s not old or even Japanese!).

It’s no small thing for someone to have to change the way one has always pronounced Jesus’ name. Catholics struggled with it as a group no doubt when they adopted the new Bible, and my Protestant family members have difficulty with it when they sometimes visit Catholic Mass with me. But it makes for a fun topic to discuss with other Catholics during informal fellowship after mass.

Speaking of major upheavals, I forgot to bring up what happened just one year ago when the Japanese Catholic Church changed the wording of the Hail Mary (in Japanese) and we all had to re-learn it! Some people still stumble over it, which is a reliable clue as to who doesn’t say the rosary regularly, sort of a modern Japanese shibboleth. .

The part that comes from the Luke passage now reads AVE MARIA, MEGUMI NI MICHITA KATA which literally means filled with grace. Very significant that this time around they included AVE just as it was in Latin.

 

[patrick457]

It is significant that in the Japanese mass we read Iesu in the scripture and still sing Iezusu. One priest I know uses the older Iezusu even when he reads the Gospel (and he’s not old or even Japanese!).

It’s no small thing for someone to have to change the way one has always pronounced Jesus’ name. Catholics struggled with it as a group no doubt when they adopted the new Bible, and my Protestant family members have difficulty with it when they sometimes visit Catholic Mass with me. But it makes for a fun topic to discuss with other Catholics during informal fellowship after mass.

Come to think of it, you had Yaso (耶蘇), then Iesu (イエス), then Iezusu (イエズス), then Iisusu (イイスス) - and now you even have Jizasu (ジーザス). At least it did not reach the same level as the whole debate in Chinese about whether to call God Shangdi (上帝), Shen (神), or Tianzhu (天主).