Catholics who read Protestant Bibles

  • Thread starter Thread starter kyleboerner
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
“Dangerous” may be a bit strong. Missing the deuterocanonical books could be an impediment to the fullness of the faith. I do see your point though. I’ve seen more Catholics pick up a King James or NIV than a Protestant pick up a Douay.
I wondered about how much of a problem it would be so I started a thread here a while back asking if there were any Catholic teachings whose biblical support could be found only in the deuterocanonicals and no one was able to come up with anything.
 
I wondered about how much of a problem it would be so I started a thread here a while back asking if there were any Catholic teachings whose biblical support could be found only in the deuterocanonicals and no one was able to come up with anything.
How many responded to the thread? Purgatory is inferred which is certaily substantial. As well, historical refference and prayer are important.Tobit 12:15
I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One. [see Revelation 1:4 and 8:3-4 below]

2 Maccabees 7:29
[A mother speaking to her son:] Do not fear this butcher, but prove worthy of your brothers. Accept death, so that in God’s mercy I may get you back again with your brothers. [see Hebrews 11:35 below]

2 Maccabees 12:44
For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [see 1 Corinthians 15:29 below]

2 Maccabees 15:14
And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah [bodily dead], the prophet of God.”

1 Corinthians 15:29
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? [see 2 Maccabees 12:44 above]

Hebrews 11:35
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection. [see 2 Maccabees 7:29 above]

Revelation 1:4
…Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne. [see Tobit 12:15 above]

Revelation 8:3-4
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. [see Tobit 12:15 above]

Further Reading
Canon of the Old Testament

Defense of Catholicism
Index
 
How many responded to the thread? Purgatory is inferred which is certaily substantial. As well, historical refference and prayer are important.
I don’t remember. There is important support for Purgatory in the deuterocanonicals but also in the New Testament. I was looking for any teaching that was found in the deuterocanonicals but nowhere else in Scripture.
 
I don’t remember. There is important support for Purgatory in the deuterocanonicals but also in the New Testament. I was looking for any teaching that was found in the deuterocanonicals but nowhere else in Scripture.
Oh, I see. Well I would say that additional teachings are not in the deutero. However as with all things it is wise to have the complete truth, and not just a good portion of it.
 
Oh, I see. Well I would say that additional teachings are not in the deutero. However as with all things it is wise to have the complete truth, and not just a good portion of it.
I agree. I was just curious.
 
Practical differences between Catholic translation (with imprimatur) and protestant/orthodox ones are that you can only get the daily plenary indulgence for a half hour of reading the bible if you read an imprimatured one, and that you are required to use a bible with imprimatur for teaching in Catholic schools according to canon law, if I’m not mistaken.
 
I’m new to this! I’ve always had a habit of reading the Bible daily (convert from Protestantism). How does one get this indulgence?
 
In other words, does one have to apply for it before hand, or is it automatically granted if you meet the conditions?
 
Very simply, the protestant “bible” is a heretical document, it does not even count as a bible. It does not count as a bible because the Council Of Trent proclaimed that its author, Martin Luther, was a heretic, and that all his writings were absolutely heretical. He removed from the old testament seven books, and edited parts of Esther and Daniel, as well as editing the new testament in several ways, if you would like an explanation on those edits i will give it to you. However, the fact remains that Martin Luther, and anything he had a hand in is Anathaema (irrevocably damned) .if your friend believes the protestant bible to be accurate, or that it is reliable, you should inform him that according to the teachings of the church, he is reading a Heretical document, and not The Holy Bible as approved by the Catholic Church, and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, if he continues to read this bible as if it is accurate, he will be treading on the very edge and abyss of Heresy, i will pray for your succes in making your friend see their error.
 
To be fair I think that there’s the fact that there are more non-Catholic translations than Catholic ones in the market (at least in English), partly attributable to the fact that Protestants have been more active in Bible publishing than Catholics. AFAIK there are relatively few ‘original’ Catholic translations readily available right now: a good number are really just ‘Catholic’ versions of originally non-Catholic translations.
Another factor is that there are different groups of Protestants, with very different doctrines, so they want a Bible translation that reflects their own tendencies. Hence we have the NIV as well as the RSV/NASB tradition. There is also the American Bible Society, and similar groups, who produce their own versions, not necessarily affiliated with any church as such. Catholics have a more unified approach, and so naturally have fewer different versions.

I don’t necessarily feel that reading a Protestant Bible, and even the footnotes, is a danger–but you need to be aware of the tendencies of the given translation and edition. Just as you are aware of the tendencies of, say, NBC, PBS, or Fox News and take that into account when they report news. And comparing a variety of translations can help get at some of the nuances missing from a given version.
 
dynamic (=demonic) translations are the one not to read
but
translated from what?
New Covenant text from
  1. Text Receptus
  2. Nestle-Aland
in the latter the manuscripts are selected based on statistics!
e.g. if some word is used in only a few manuscript copies
it is then left out - now try to translate the missing word!
  1. KJV (TR)
    Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be* in danger* of hell fire.
  2. ESV (N-A)
    Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

I don’t point these out to you without a cause
some people are in danger of judgement (2.Peter 3:16)
 
CyberAngel wrote: *dynamic (=demonic) translations are the one not to read
but
translated from what?
New Covenant text from
  1. Text Receptus
  2. Nestle-Aland
in the latter the manuscripts are selected based on statistics!
e.g. if some word is used in only a few manuscript copies
it is then left out - now try to translate the missing word!
  1. KJV (TR)
    Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
  2. ESV (N-A)
    Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

I don’t point these out to you without a cause;
some people are in danger of judgement (2.Peter 3:16)*
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How right you are to point this exceedingly important fact out, CyberAngel! I use any of the modern versions less than the Authorised “King James” Version, the New Testament of which derives from the Textus Receptus (T.R.), and the Douay-Rheims-Challoner, which derives from the Latin Clementine Vulgate, both of which far superior to the Nestle-Aland so-called “Critical Text” on which the vast majority base their New Testament versions.

Any Bible (which means most of the modern ones) that has a defective textual basis has a problem worse than questions of phrasing and wording, though the matter of “full equivalency” vs. “dynamic equivalency” remains equally important.

It is shameful for a Catholic to call the Textus Receptus a Protestant Greek text; the very Catholic Complutensian Polyglot`s Greek text is nearly identical to the T.R. Catholic scholars need to take cognizance of this!
 
CyberAngel wrote: *dynamic (=demonic) translations are the one not to read
but
translated from what?
New Covenant text from
  1. Text Receptus
  2. Nestle-Aland
in the latter the manuscripts are selected based on statistics!
e.g. if some word is used in only a few manuscript copies
it is then left out - now try to translate the missing word!
  1. KJV (TR)
    Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
  2. ESV (N-A)
    Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

I don’t point these out to you without a cause;
some people are in danger of judgement (2.Peter 3:16)*
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How right you are to point this exceedingly important fact out, CyberAngel! I use any of the modern versions less than the Authorised “King James” Version, the New Testament of which derives from the Textus Receptus (T.R.), and the Douay-Rheims-Challoner, which derives from the Latin Clementine Vulgate, both of which far superior to the Nestle-Aland so-called “Critical Text” on which the vast majority base their New Testament versions.

Any Bible (which means most of the modern ones) that has a defective textual basis has a problem worse than questions of phrasing and wording, though the matter of “full equivalency” vs. “dynamic equivalency” remains equally important.

It is shameful for a Catholic to call the Textus Receptus a Protestant Greek text; the very Catholic Complutensian Polyglot`s Greek text is nearly identical to the T.R. Catholic scholars need to take cognizance of this!
Interesting that KJV-onlyism has also influenced catholics.
BTW the nestle-aland is not based on statistics: that’s the Majority Text. The Nestlé aland (more or less the base of the new vulgate) is based on which texts are the earliest and from copying schools known not to make much errors. A traditional text strand catholics might also consider is the byzantine textual tradition.
But the differences between the different traditions are pretty minor anyway.
 
Late to the thread but I’ll give a great “problem” with the NIV1984. There is no Hell in the Old Testament. What was always Hell in Douay, Wycliffe, and others became 100% Grave in the Geneva bible, the KJV split it 50/50 half Grave half Hell. The NIV1984 followed the Geneva bible in 100% Grave. In modern Church approved translations its consistently rendered not as Grave but as sheol, or the netherworld, or phrases like that.

Whether someone went to hell or just the grave makes a huge theological difference.

The statement that Jacob was going to go down to Hell, by Jacob, directly connects to the notion that the Harrowing of Hell in Christ and explains why its very hard to establish such things from scripture in protestant Bibles.
 
Very simply, the protestant “bible” is a heretical document, it does not even count as a bible. It does not count as a bible because the Council Of Trent proclaimed that its author, Martin Luther, was a heretic, and that all his writings were absolutely heretical. He removed from the old testament seven books, and edited parts of Esther and Daniel, as well as editing the new testament in several ways, if you would like an explanation on those edits i will give it to you. However, the fact remains that Martin Luther, and anything he had a hand in is Anathaema (irrevocably damned) .if your friend believes the protestant bible to be accurate, or that it is reliable, you should inform him that according to the teachings of the church, he is reading a Heretical document, and not The Holy Bible as approved by the Catholic Church, and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, if he continues to read this bible as if it is accurate, he will be treading on the very edge and abyss of Heresy, i will pray for your succes in making your friend see their error.
I don’t think this is official Church stance on the matter (that I know of). While I see no reason to buy a King James over a Catholic version, I don’t believe KJV is considered “not a real Bible” or “heretical”. After all, Luther did not write the Bible (although it does not contain the complete truth because of missing books). Remember, no English translation is the original text anyway. Catholic specific translations will use certain wordings that line up more precisely with Church teaching.
 
If the truth will set you free, then this is the best place to start at.
I agree that a good starting point on evangelizing Protestants is to start the discussion with, “What bible do you reference from? King James?”
Point is that when I ask them to look up a bible verse and read along with me, it usually is not sequenced as my Navarre Bible is.
Then there is the missing 7 books issue that explains many Catholic points that the Church fathers referenced. Those are the same church fathers that Protestants theologians’ quote.
You can’t have a truthful dialog if we both are reading from different scripts that emit or change wording to meet the protestant sects’ needs.
Problem is that they are so lovingly attached to their personal bible, they refuse to discount it.
They must want the absolute truth to abandon their misdirected scriptures from the past.
The rest of the conversion will get easier if the put away their flawed scriptures 1st.
 
I have a catholic friend who has many influential protestant family members/friends. Also, this same catholic friend reads out of a protestant bible instead of a catholic bible. He believes there is no difference and that the protestant and catholic bible are both one in the same, “the bible”.

Searching the internet, it seems opinions vary from one catholic to the next as to why catholics should only read a catholic bible, and why it is okay/not okay for catholics to read primarily from a protestant bible.

There are many opinions my friend has that are very protestant-esque, and I know some of the influences comes from his protestant family, but I’m curious if it also comes from the protestant bible he reads.

In my opinion, I find protestant bibles dangerous since men interpreted specific scripture to fit their personal belief structure.
:confused:
Can you please shed light on this topic? Is it okay for catholics to own a protestant bible if it is the only bible in their house? Thanks for your help!
As a convert to Catholism I study different Bibles for reference and understanding but if the truth known no translation has come close to the beautiful Elizabethan English of the the King James Bible.

Psalms 23: The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever
 
Wings and Preppy,

**Between you two, you wrote: ** **Originally Posted by preppy ***
Very simply, the protestant “bible” is a heretical document, it does not even count as a bible. It does not count as a bible because the Council Of Trent proclaimed that its author, Martin Luther, was a heretic, and that all his writings were absolutely heretical
… ***

Wings: *I don’t think this is official Church stance on the matter (that I know of). While I see no reason to buy a King James over a Catholic version, I don’t believe KJV is considered “not a real Bible” or “heretical”. After all, Luther did not write the Bible (although it does not contain the complete truth because of missing books). Remember, no English translation is the original text anyway. Catholic specific translations will use certain wordings that line up more precisely with Church teaching. *​

I am more with Wings on this matter! For one thing, I have read, for devotion and for doctrine, Dr. Martin Luthers translation of the Bible for many, many years, the New Testament of it too many times to count, As for the Lutherbibels Old Testament, I read it much less, but I did study the Psalms and the Wisdom Writings of the Old Testament (including those that Luther relegated to the Apocrypha) very carefully, indeed.

Luthers German is of unimaginable beauty and grandeur, :thumbsup: and a non-German-reading person simply cannot imagine the impact of such strong, ruggèd, but gorgeous prose. The New Testament is not only impressive from a literary standpoint, it is quite literal, very faithful to the Tex*tus Receptus*. Luthers Old Testament, on the other hand, while it has that same beauty, Luther translated it more freely, though not with the wild looseness all too common among 20th and 21st century translators who would displace, if these fools ever could, Luthers own BIble with their revisions of it or with their paltry modern versions. If you love German, *ipso facto* you revere and delight in Luthers prose and poetry.

The Catholic Church has been loosening its denunciations of Luthers Bible during several past decades. It is true that some of Luthers biases come through in his translation, e.g. the consistent replacement of the German word for church with the term for congregation. However, the reader adjusts to thinking Church when he sees congregation in Luthers text. German readers, Protestant or Catholic, just used Luthers Bible despite past Church pronouncements, because of its obvious superiority and loveliness, and its only real rival, especially in Switzerland, was Zwinglis liltingly sweet German in that more radical reformers own version (of which I have read the cmplete New Testament twice, with great pleasure). Luthers and Zwinglis German is a precious treasure to German speakers.

There is no way in H— that Luthers and Zwinglis truly monumental translations ever are going to be booted aside by any other German Bible, Catholic or Protestant, so, guys, just get used to it!

It is only for the last four years or so that I have stopped reading Luthers Bible daily. Now that I am retired and do not need to "keep up" my German for the sake of my profession (music librarianship, in which German is the Queen Language of musicology and the language of many texts set to imperishably great music), I am letting that language slide away from me. But I still get shivers when I hear the magnificent cadences of Luthers translation as he himself left it for us to savour and to enjoy, and from which to profit spiritually! Those who would condemn Luther`s Bible, refusing to acknowledge the claims of its literary beauty are vulgarians and are lacking in personal culture!.
 
Perhaps no one else has found ‘The Catholic Comprehensive New Testament’ by Oxford U Press. It is eight side by side (a lousy way to read a bible) editions of Catholic bibles. They range from the old Rheims (my high school issue) to the Christian Community Bible of 2004. All are Imprimater (?) and Nihil Obstat. Working in RCIA I do refer to the King James and others as presented. I think it is Scott Hahn (already referenced) who suggests always using the other guys bible to “discuss” the facts of the Catholic faith. "If we can’t win it in the bible (even theirs) we can’t win it.
By- the-by’ the missing “apocrophia” do provide more evidence of both the resurrection and the after-life, which gave the later Jewish authorities one more reason to eliminate them from the canon of Jewish scripture. I belive all the missing were only written in Greek.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top