Catholics why are the little things important but not the big?

[Protestor]

I know this may not apply to everyone here but I have to address it to all of you. It seems silly to oppose protestant(christians) on interfaith disputes but not take a hardline when it comes to someones eternal destiny. I talked to a catholic priest 2 years ago and he told me that the church will not say that any one person is in hell or going there eventually. My question is why would you correct me on issue of dogmatic understanding and not be willing to tell someone the truth and their eternal destiny? Was this priest correct in saying that catholics will not tell some who is an atheist the truth? I understand that apologetically it can be sticky to straight tell someone “you are going to hell”. If you think it is wrong or should not be done I want to know why? How can there be a good news, if there is no bad news?

This has been weighing on my heart and I which is why I ask.

 

[MichaelHowling]

As it pertains to anyone’s soul…we are not, nor are you in any position to make an eternal judgement call. All we as Catholics are able to do is acknowledge and teach what has been revealed to us to teach.

We are aware of God’s perfect Justice (which also takes into account a person’s knowledge, heart’s position, and intent and degree consent of their will)… and His infinite mercy and that it is His very own will that wishes “NOT the sinner to die”.

The Catholic church CLEARLY teaches the existence of hell and that people certainly do go there. The church obviously points out what has been revealed as a wrong in this world and it’s considered by the church Christian charity to acknowledge this before a person in a true spirit of charity.

 

[Protestor]

As it pertains to anyone’s soul…we are not, *nor are you *in any position to make an eternal judgement call. All we as Catholics are able to do is acknowledge and teach what has been revealed to us to teach.

This is now moved to the top of my list on why I will never, save Devine inspiration, be a catholic. How do you evangelize? “hey you should listen to me and what my church teaches, if you don’t it’s a **** shoot on your eternal destiny” If you had come up to me with that line I would still be agnostic. Thank God someone had the intestinal fortitude to tell me the truth. I want to see the writers who have claimed such a thing.

 

[edwest2]

This is now moved to the top of my list on why I will never, save Devine inspiration, be a catholic. How do you evangelize? “hey you should listen to me and what my church teaches, if you don’t it’s a **** shoot on your eternal destiny” If you had come up to me with that line I would still be agnostic. Thank God someone had the intestinal fortitude to tell me the truth. I want to see the writers who have claimed such a thing.

Can you clarify about “I want to see the writers who have claimed such a thing.”? Are you referring to individual Catholics or referring to the Church?

Best,
Ed

 

[Protestor]

Can you clarify about “I want to see the writers who have claimed such a thing.”? Are you referring to individual Catholics or referring to the Church?
Best,
Ed

I am saying I want to see where in tradition it claims this. This is just so far away from what I believe that I cannot hardly comprehend where it comes from.

 

[christofirst]

We can certainly lay out the facts as the Church teaches us… Informing someone of the risk and possibility of final damnation is not the same as telling them they are hell-bound. How to explain this in an inviting and loving way, so it doesn’t just sound like a threat or some sort of power play to influence behavior, this is often the problem.

 

[Orogeny]

This is now moved to the top of my list on why I will never, save Devine inspiration, be a catholic. How do you evangelize? “hey you should listen to me and what my church teaches, if you don’t it’s a **** shoot on your eternal destiny” If you had come up to me with that line I would still be agnostic. Thank God someone had the intestinal fortitude to tell me the truth. I want to see the writers who have claimed such a thing.

OK, if you don’t follow the Church and her teachings, you are going to hell. Feel better?

Peace

Tim

 

[JamesTheJust]

I am saying I want to see where in tradition it claims this. This is just so far away from what I believe that I cannot hardly comprehend where it comes from.

Ignatius of Antioch
“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism *, he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine *, he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
“In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace” (Against Heresies3:24:1 [A.D. 189]).

“[The spiritual man] shall also judge those who give rise to schisms, who are destitute of the love of God, and who look to their own special advantage rather than to the unity of the Church; and who for trifling reasons, or any kind of reason which occurs to them, cut in pieces and divide the great and glorious body of Christ, and so far as in them lies, destroy it—men who prate of peace while they give rise to war, and do in truth strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. For they can bring about no ‘reformation’ of enough importance to compensate for the evil arising from their schism. . . . True knowledge is that which consists in the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place *” (ibid., 4:33:7–8).

Cyprian of Carthage
“Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).

“[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism” (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]).***

 

[MichaelHowling]

lol orogeny.

 

[njprintman]

** I understand that apologetically it can be sticky to straight tell someone “you are going to hell”.**

In my humble opinion…are you going to hell?
You WILL know if you are going to hell.

 

[Protestor]

We can certainly lay out the facts as the Church teaches us… Informing someone of the risk and possibility of final damnation is not the same as telling them they are hell-bound. How to explain this in an inviting and loving way, so it doesn’t just sound like a threat or some sort of power play to influence behavior, this is often the problem.

First off who edited **** shoot. Craps is a game not to be confused with fecal matter. The point is that it is a gamble. Are you seriously editing me for using a gambling idiom.

Second, please lay out the facts.

Third risk and possibility are words that should not be used here. You guys are acting like God has told you he has a backup plan for all the people who never believed in him. Are you seriously claiming that the gospel is not the only way into heaven. That is the only way that what you are saying would make sense.

 

[Protestor]

OK, if you don’t follow the Church and her teachings, you are going to hell. Feel better?

Peace

Tim

Yes I do.

 

[JamesTheJust]

I am saying I want to see where in tradition it claims this. This is just so far away from what I believe that I cannot hardly comprehend where it comes from.

Origen
“If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death” (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).

Lactantius
“It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject” (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).

Jerome
“Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism there is this difference: that heresy involves perverse doctrine, while schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop. Nevertheless, there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church” (Commentary on Titus 3:10–11 [A.D. 386]).

Augustine
“We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church. For heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor” (Faith and the Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]).

“The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics” (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).

 

[MichaelHowling]

Protestor…I protest!

Our forefathers were being split apart and having their heads literally handed to them before any breakaway Christian religion was even a figment.

Just recently… I have a friend who is an extremely popular and loved co-worker…She decided to get married and publicly asked for God to not be a part of it, wanted to not be open to life and asked for a prenuptual agreement (meaning she considered that her marriage may not be for life). …When asked to go to the wedding, I told her I couldint go because I didn’t see it as a valid marriage. I could have easily lost a friend, I could have been shunned by all my co-workers.

I did it in a respectful, cordial, loving way and still was able to live out my faith publically!

I lost no friends, and she is now beginning to look for God.

You have NO RIGHT to be going around condemning your brothers and sisters…and the church doesn’t either! Neither did Christ! deal with it! You must have some serious problems of your own to want to point out others. There are better ways to help people heal and grow in faith.

As it has been said…the Church isin’t a museum of saints but a hospital for sinners!

Christ will do the healing…not you…just get them into the hospital!

 

[MichaelHowling]

you evangelize with your life and you bring Christs love into the world with it.

Evangelization is not pointing out peoples flaws or condemning them to hell… “you are to be their light, not their judge!”

Be careful with what you are doing…it can be VERY dangerous ! And while you go around condemning thinking you are doing something for CHrist…you may have to answer for all the sheep you slaughter

 

[georget]

Our job here is not to judge someone"s eternal soul (That job is taken), were supposed to be faithful to Christ and to explain to others why we are, and invite them to join us in our walk of faith. To judge someone’s soul would go against the teachings of the Savior.

 

[Protestor]

Ignatius of Antioch
“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism *, he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine *, he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
“In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace” (Against Heresies3:24:1 [A.D. 189]).

“[The spiritual man] shall also judge those who give rise to schisms, who are destitute of the love of God, and who look to their own special advantage rather than to the unity of the Church; and who for trifling reasons, or any kind of reason which occurs to them, cut in pieces and divide the great and glorious body of Christ, and so far as in them lies, destroy it—men who prate of peace while they give rise to war, and do in truth strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. For they can bring about no ‘reformation’ of enough importance to compensate for the evil arising from their schism. . . . True knowledge is that which consists in the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place *” (ibid., 4:33:7–8).

Cyprian of Carthage
“Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).

“[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism” (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]).***

Please explain to me how this proves that I cannot say that an atheist is going to hell. All I see is schismist do not inherit the kingdom and are not joined with the father and Justin is talking about BC AD not about people today.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Please explain to me how this proves that I cannot say that an atheist is going to hell. All I see is schismist do not inherit the kingdom and are not joined with the father and Justin is talking about BC AD not about people today.

I posted in the wrong thread. It was a technical mistake, carry on.

 

[agnes_therese]

I understand that apologetically it can be sticky to straight tell someone “you are going to hell”. If you think it is wrong or should not be done I want to know why? How can there be a good news, if there is no bad news?

This has been weighing on my heart and I which is why I ask.

And how do you know with certainty who is going to go to hell? How do you know so intimately another person’s heart and soul? Do you really believe you have that awesome power?
Not being snarky, I really would like to know.

 

[Protestor]

Origen
“If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death” (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).

Lactantius
“It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject” (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).

Jerome
“Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism there is this difference: that heresy involves perverse doctrine, while schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop. Nevertheless, there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church” (Commentary on Titus 3:10–11 [A.D. 386]).

Augustine
“We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church. For heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor” (Faith and the Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]).

“The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics” (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).

Only read the first 2 you keep quoting people who are making my point. My point is if you are not a part of the church you are not going to heaven.