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JamesTheJust
Guest
Read my earlier post. Wrong thread.
Though I would like to post this:
James 4:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
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Though I would like to post this:
James 4:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
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edwest2
Guest
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christofirst
Guest
Risk and possibility are exactly the right words to use. To be honest, the Protestant Christian understanding, “Once saved, always saved,” is a far more lenient (and incorrect) understanding of eschatology (notice I said eschatology, not scatology - I have no problem with your gambling metaphor
). But a fire and brimstone approach is not more effective, in my opinion, because as long as we are alive, the option for heaven or hell remains a possibility. The hope for a final reconciliation remains even until the very last moment of life. No mere mortal can say with complete certainty what is reserved to God alone. From the Catechism, #1037: "In the Eucharistic liturgy and the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want ‘any to perish, but all to come to repentance.’"
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SybilMolly
Guest
We can’t tell people whether or not they are going to Hell or not because we don’t know.
Only God can do that. I’m glad of it; I very much don’t want to know who is destined for Hell.
Only God can do that. I’m glad of it; I very much don’t want to know who is destined for Hell.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
The Gospel is NOT the way into Heaven. Christ (the Way, the Life and the Truth) is the way into Heaven. The Gospel is the good news about the way. Your destiny does not depend upon the Gospel, it depends upon Christ.
The conditional is IF you do what is set down in Holy Scripture and in the teachings of the Church then Christ has promised you will get to Heaven. This is the “positive” assurance. If you do not, then you and only you bear the risk. Why should the Church be held responsible for what you choose to ignore or contend?
If you are traveling to a place called Destiny and you stop and ask for directions and Mr. Church tells you the most direct and sure way to get there, then why would you hold Mr. Church negligent for not telling you about an alternative path full of brambles and perils?
Mr. Church may have said, “Well other ways may get you to Destiny, but I can’t assure you that you will survive. If you take this way, you will get there unscathed provided you follow my directions to the letter.”
It would be silly to say to Mr. Church, "Are you seriously claiming that this road is not the only way into Destiny. That is the only way that what you are saying would make sense."
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Have you ever done that with a positive outcome? Tell and atheist he or she is goinf to Hell?
It is simply not an effective way to evangelize besides the fact that what happens in the depth of that person’s soul with God is non of our business. There is a profound intimacy between each eprson and God. We get a small glimps of it in Eucharist.
Popoe Francis just came out with a nice exhortation on Evangelization. Have your read any of it. It really is not just for Catholics.
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CrossofChrist
Guest
The priest is correct. We can say that if a person commits a mortal sin they are cut off from God. But to say that we know if someone is in hell would be to commit the sin of presumption. God can work wonders and we don’t know the state of someone else’s soul.
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Lochias
Guest
That can’t be objectively true as you understand it, otherwise there would be people going to Hell every day that never had a chance to know any church in their lives.
God isn’t unfair.
Second, the word “****” is edited out by forum software, automatically.
Third, you cannot see into the hearts of other men like God can see into hearts, so you can’t ever prove someone is going to Hell.
Fourth, Scripture is not God. We worship Christ, not a book, however wonderful, instructional and necessary that book may be.
Fifth, the Catholic Church put the Bible together as you know it (notwithstanding the books that some Protestants did away with, without authority to do so), so you’re already bowing to the Church’s authority every time you preach from Scripture.
Sixth, only someone who loves themselves more than others is going to go around and try to convert people to God with “and if ya don’t, you’re gonna BURN!” That’ll get you precisely zero converts. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not an exclusive club for the righteous.
Be ashamed. Be very ashamed. That is all.
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JaredJ
Guest
Back when I was in college a young kid walked up to me and said “You are going to hell.” and handed me a pamplet. I saw his father close by doing the same thing to other students on campus. Most were offended and walked away.
Another time someone told me I was going to hell as I walked away the guy walking next to me told me in bewilderment that the guy went to his church. Apparently he saw him on Sundays etc… According to the student he even said something to the gentleman but he was so busy damning us all to the inferno that he didn’t care.
Neither of these people knew anything about the people they were convicting. I witnessed the people they were talking to not move closer to God but be pushed away and left at least one student disheartened. For me, besides a little anger at being judged unfairly it did nothing but harden me against what they were standing for. Personally I don’t believe they were sharing Jesus’s message.
Other than that this verse has always guided me.
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7 1-2
I do think Catholics on occasion avoid the topic of hell too much and in that sense I agree with you. There may be times when as Catholics we need to make sure people understand the full weight of the situation. Still it is not my place to stand as judge and pass judgement even when perhaps that judgement seems obvious. I can’t see what God sees. Honestly, many people aren’t going to be converted by threat nor do I think that is what we see in the Gospels.
Another time someone told me I was going to hell as I walked away the guy walking next to me told me in bewilderment that the guy went to his church. Apparently he saw him on Sundays etc… According to the student he even said something to the gentleman but he was so busy damning us all to the inferno that he didn’t care.
Neither of these people knew anything about the people they were convicting. I witnessed the people they were talking to not move closer to God but be pushed away and left at least one student disheartened. For me, besides a little anger at being judged unfairly it did nothing but harden me against what they were standing for. Personally I don’t believe they were sharing Jesus’s message.
Other than that this verse has always guided me.
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7 1-2
I do think Catholics on occasion avoid the topic of hell too much and in that sense I agree with you. There may be times when as Catholics we need to make sure people understand the full weight of the situation. Still it is not my place to stand as judge and pass judgement even when perhaps that judgement seems obvious. I can’t see what God sees. Honestly, many people aren’t going to be converted by threat nor do I think that is what we see in the Gospels.
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christofirst
Guest
I understand the feeling that the pendulum has swung too far from, “Nearly everyone is going to hell,” to “No one is going to hell.” Neither statement, of course, is necessarily correct. Von Balthasar’s “Dare we hope that all will be saved,” is very appealing for myself and others, but it is not in any way official Church teaching, I know. It is just a hope, like the hope I get from Julian of Norwich’s “All will be well” (which I know is also open to interpretation and only a private revelation anyway).
The way I see it is sort of like the old song, “Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative.” Simplistic, I know, but I think the carrot (heaven) just has a stronger appeal for myself and others than the stick (hell). But maybe some are drawn to the Church and their salvation by the threat of hell. There’s nothing really stopping you from preaching the old hell-fire if you think that is the better way.
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LSK
Guest
Protestor: You can say anything you want. All of us can; the question is whether or not you should say something that is going to give someone the complete Truth or just YOUR individual version of it.
You may tell an atheist he is going to hell. That would, however, be an incomplete sentence in terms of giving that person the Good News of Christ’s Sacrifice for us.
A complete sentence would be this: Unless you repent and be baptized, you will end up in hell."
Notice I did not say, “I need to KNOW you have done this in order for you to be in heaven”.
Why?
Because at the moment of their death, in the stillness of their heart, they may say, “Jesus, I was wrong…and I am sorry and I believe”.
And that, Protestor, would be a repentence and a baptism of desire.
I cannot tell you who is in hell besides Satan and his demons.
I can guess (and to a certain extent, I can hope) but for me to sit here and state that someone is in hell would be arrogant.
I can tell you - the Bible says that unless YOU eat of His Flesh and drink of His Blood YOU SHALL NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
I have now told you the Truth - you may not pretend you do not know…and if you continue to reject it, well…who knows…
Everyone who cries, “Lord, Lord” will not be allowed into the kingdom…
you just may be going to hell.
You may tell an atheist he is going to hell. That would, however, be an incomplete sentence in terms of giving that person the Good News of Christ’s Sacrifice for us.
A complete sentence would be this: Unless you repent and be baptized, you will end up in hell."
Notice I did not say, “I need to KNOW you have done this in order for you to be in heaven”.
Why?
Because at the moment of their death, in the stillness of their heart, they may say, “Jesus, I was wrong…and I am sorry and I believe”.
And that, Protestor, would be a repentence and a baptism of desire.
I cannot tell you who is in hell besides Satan and his demons.
I can guess (and to a certain extent, I can hope) but for me to sit here and state that someone is in hell would be arrogant.
I can tell you - the Bible says that unless YOU eat of His Flesh and drink of His Blood YOU SHALL NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
I have now told you the Truth - you may not pretend you do not know…and if you continue to reject it, well…who knows…
Everyone who cries, “Lord, Lord” will not be allowed into the kingdom…
you just may be going to hell.
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Protestor
Guest
“Niether did christ” you need to check yourself and make sure you are a christian or type what you mean. Saying that Christ did something he should not have is blasphemous. They are not my brothers and sisters if they are not christians
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Paddy_Walker
Guest
St. Columba in around 500 A.D. knew an old pagan man and Columba was of the opinion that this old pagan man could get to heaven because of his natural affinity to goodness. Christianity is not a magical process nor an automatic process, rather, it seems to rely on goodness and kindness and mercy to ones fellow traveller in life.
The protestants special problem is that none of the Apostles were protestants, none protested against the other and willfully started their own religion. It will fall to the leaders of protestantism to be faithful to these above mentioned qualities of the pagan man but also the leaders especially have and bear responsibility to bring all christians together into one fold. As the master of all prayed; That they may be One. Division belongs to the Enemy.
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Protestor
Guest
Seriously I said that while evangelizing you have to be careful because this is a sticky subject. Where is your quote from references please
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Protestor
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Quotes and references are needed.
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Protestor
Guest
I am not just talking about people who are not christians I am talking about atheist. They literally are committing an unforgivable sin by not accepting christ as having the Spirit and on top of that that the Spirit and God do not exist. They live for themselves and others not for God. Are you trying to say that a person can be an atheist and go to heaven?
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MarcoPolo
Guest
CCC#1861 [A]lthough we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
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Protestor
Guest
Do not take quotes out of context this is only talking brothers in Christ. Look at verse 11
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kingston1
Guest
What causes someone to go to Hell?
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MarcoPolo
Guest
The Church does not hide the potentiality of hell.
*CCC#846 Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.*You need to enter the Church to go to heaven, without exception. The part about “knowing that the Catholic Church….” above is a reference to those who are invincibly ignorant. If those persons were saved, it would be because they were united to Church in a way known only to God to the one Church to which one must necessarily be united to be saved.
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