Catholics why are the little things important but not the big?

[Prayer_Warrior]

I believe the quotes you are looking for come out of the Bible.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Luke 6:41
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

Romans 14:13
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

There is a difference between judging that someone is going to hell and warning them of the possibility of hell. Catholics know that they are not to judge someone’s soul. To do so is to try to be God and I can only firmly warn you that this is not a good idea. We are unable to judge the interior of one’s soul, only God can do that. You mentioned an atheist earlier. I knew a “tried and true” atheist that was in a serious car accident. As the car was crashing, she cried out, “Oh God, please help me!!”. She lived and had a profound conversion experience. Up to that point in time, any one of a number of Christian evangelical types would have told her she was going to hell— but see, in her heart she really did believe in God. It was only in that moment of desperation that she realized in her mind, what her heart had known all along.

That does not mean that evangelization is not necessary. We in the Catholic Church are told that the Church exists to evangelize. Anyone with even a marginal knowledge of history knows that the Church evangelizes and, in my opinion, the “you’re going to hell” technique has been the most ineffective tactic that the Church ever used. Yes, we did that routine many years ago and lost a lot of Catholics because of it.

As Christians, we should follow Jesus’ example. Jesus’ first words of public ministry in the gospel of Mark were “This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” We also have His example of the adulteress that was going to be stoned and He said “Let he who has not sinned, throw the first stone.”. Jesus knew how to effectively evangelize. Although He was in the position to condemn, which we certainly are not, He always just gave the message of repentance, turning toward God, how to walk in His way, etc. He wasn’t screaming at the people “y’all are gonna burn in hell!!!”.

 

[kingston1]

I knew a “tried and true” atheist that was in a serious car accident. As the car was crashing, she cried out, “Oh God, please help me!!”. She lived and had a profound conversion experience. Up to that point in time, any one of a number of Christian evangelical types would have told her she was going to hell— but see, in her heart she really did believe in God. It was only in that moment of desperation that she realized in her mind, what her heart had known all along.

 

[Protestor]

Risk and possibility are exactly the right words to use. To be honest, the Protestant Christian understanding, “Once saved, always saved,” is a far more lenient (and incorrect) understanding of eschatology (notice I said eschatology, not scatology - I have no problem with your gambling metaphor). But a fire and brimstone approach is not more effective, in my opinion, because as long as we are alive, the option for heaven or hell remains a possibility. The hope for a final reconciliation remains even until the very last moment of life. No mere mortal can say with complete certainty what is reserved to God alone. From the Catechism, #1037: "In the Eucharistic liturgy and the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want ‘any to perish, but all to come to repentance.’"

Once saved always saved os not even the same subject. You miss understand me I am not saying you should star in the middle of a crowded square and tell everyone “if you are not a christian you are going to hell”. I was saying that you would never convince me with that or someone like me I guess if you want to be pc. You understand that you are saying you can be an atheist and go to heaven. I am talking about a scenario where a person actually is an atheist. Not some fairy tail where they said they were an atheist but they somehow where a christian and did not know it. I am not going to base my decisions on some hypothetical that there is absolutely no revelation about.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Do not take quotes out of context this is only talking brothers in Christ. Look at verse 11

11 Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.

I don’t see “in Christ” in there, do you? I see “brethren”, but all men are our brethren, some are just not “in Christ” by having not believed in Him.

 

[Protestor]

The Gospel is NOT the way into Heaven. Christ (the Way, the Life and the Truth) is the way into Heaven. The Gospel is the good news about the way. Your destiny does not depend upon the Gospel, it depends upon Christ.

The conditional is IF you do what is set down in Holy Scripture and in the teachings of the Church then Christ has promised you will get to Heaven. This is the “positive” assurance. If you do not, then you and only you bear the risk. Why should the Church be held responsible for what you choose to ignore or contend?

If you are traveling to a place called Destiny and you stop and ask for directions and Mr. Church tells you the most direct and sure way to get there, then why would you hold Mr. Church negligent for not telling you about an alternative path full of brambles and perils?

Mr. Church may have said, “Well other ways may get you to Destiny, but I can’t assure you that you will survive. If you take this way, you will get there unscathed provided you follow my directions to the letter.”

It would be silly to say to Mr. Church, "Are you seriously claiming that this road is not the only way into Destiny. That is the only way that what you are saying would make sense."

(first paragraph)You are talking about semantics. What do you imagine that I think the gospel is. I do not think that the gospel is God.
(second paragraph)We are not responsible for their fate they are. What does this have to do with the recognition of that fate.
(third paragraph) what is your point?
(fourth paragraph) I do not understand the point of your hypothetical Mr.Church situation
(fith paragraph) You are literally proving my point
Which is there is one way to obtain unity with Christ and to be adopted as a son of God and then to be glorified (which I consider to be in heaven). Which is to believe and have a living faith in God. If you do not believe and do not have a living faith you do not receive grace and mercy. You receive exactly what everyone deserves hell.

 

[Protestor]

Have you ever done that with a positive outcome? Tell and atheist he or she is goinf to Hell?
It is simply not an effective way to evangelize besides the fact that what happens in the depth of that person’s soul with God is non of our business. There is a profound intimacy between each eprson and God. We get a small glimps of it in Eucharist.

Popoe Francis just came out with a nice exhortation on Evangelization. Have your read any of it. It really is not just for Catholics.

I have and will only say this to an atheist if they specifically ask. I am going on 4 times now and once it did not go well, once the person is now a active RCC member, once is to be determined but after I told him he did come to church with me for a while we have unfortunately not kept in touch, the last time it is to soon to know what there reaction is so far not bad though.
This is literally why I am a christian so it can work. I will look up what the Pope wrote I like him.

 

[christofirst]

Once saved always saved os not even the same subject. You miss understand me I am not saying you should star in the middle of a crowded square and tell everyone “if you are not a christian you are going to hell”. I was saying that you would never convince me with that or someone like me I guess if you want to be pc. You understand that you are saying you can be an atheist and go to heaven. I am talking about a scenario where a person actually is an atheist. Not some fairy tail where they said they were an atheist but they somehow where a christian and did not know it. I am not going to base my decisions on some hypothetical that there is absolutely no revelation about.

I only brought up the OSAS because some of what you said sounded to me more Protestant than Catholic, along with your screen-name, but let’s leave that aside. My bad.

Let me use the example of my dear mother (God bless her!). Mama Christofirst was raised during the time when hell was very much emphasized in Church teaching and from the pulpit. She performs her religious duty without fail, but out of fear, and with very little joy. I do not doubt that she will be rewarded for her steadfastness, and so for her, the hell-fire threat approach is working. Two of my siblings, on the other hand, were completely put off by this way of evangelization, as others here have also related. And it appears that this repulsion is not limited to my small circle, because, as others here have well stated, Pope Francis is encouraging us to employ a more positive approach to evangelization. But for you, I guess, the threat of hell-fire is the best way to win souls, so go get 'em, tiger!

 

[georget]

Quotes and references are needed.

Where in the bible does Jesus say Atheist’s go to hell?

 

[Protestor]

That can’t be objectively true as you understand it, otherwise there would be people going to Hell every day that never had a chance to know any church in their lives.

I see the church as the body of Christ, so this is not relevant

God isn’t unfair.

Fair is everyone goes to hell apart from Christ

Second, the word “****” is edited out by forum software, automatically.

Thanks I did not know. Is “****” a profane word?

Third, you cannot see into the hearts of other men like God can see into hearts, so you can’t ever prove someone is going to Hell.

You are talking about a scenario that does not exist. Do you believe that someone claims that there is no God which I am assuming is a product of their brian but their heart, a thing which is deceitful above all things, is actually a Christian, and or even more weird that their mind and heart confess there is no God but their soul confesses there is and it has a living faith. You are living in a fury tail my brother.

Fourth, Scripture is not God. We worship Christ, not a book, however wonderful, instructional and necessary that book may be.

I do not understand where this is coming from or what it pertains to.

Fifth, the Catholic Church put the Bible together as you know it (notwithstanding the books that some Protestants did away with, without authority to do so), so you’re already bowing to the Church’s authority every time you preach from Scripture.

Not here to argue about SS I am here to say that it is possible to claim someone is going to hell and to be right about that claim. Specifically if you are and die as an atheist you are not going to heaven.

Sixth, only someone who loves themselves more than others is going to go around and try to convert people to God with “and if ya don’t, you’re gonna BURN!” That’ll get you precisely zero converts. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not an exclusive club for the righteous.

Not what I was saying and does not even apply to what I am saying

Be ashamed. Be very ashamed. That is all.

Stay on topic.

 

[kingston1]

How do we know that God doesn’t give the living (and the living includes those who have died here) a chance to understand the Truth beyond their life here and therefore have a more full expression of free will?

 

[YoungTradCath]

I know this may not apply to everyone here but I have to address it to all of you. It seems silly to oppose protestant(christians) on interfaith disputes but not take a hardline when it comes to someones eternal destiny. I talked to a catholic priest 2 years ago and he told me that the church will not say that any one person is in hell or going there eventually. My question is why would you correct me on issue of dogmatic understanding and not be willing to tell someone the truth and their eternal destiny? Was this priest correct in saying that catholics will not tell some who is an atheist the truth? I understand that apologetically it can be sticky to straight tell someone “you are going to hell”. If you think it is wrong or should not be done I want to know why? How can there be a good news, if there is no bad news?

This has been weighing on my heart and I which is why I ask.

The Church does not and can not speak with any kind of specificity as to the population of Hell. Of course there are people there, but to extend that even a millimeter further would be wrong.

This in no way contradicts the necessity of the Church for salvation, etc…

 

[Protestor]

Other than that this verse has always guided me.
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7 1-2

I do think Catholics on occasion avoid the topic of hell too much and in that sense I agree with you. There may be times when as Catholics we need to make sure people understand the full weight of the situation. Still it is not my place to stand as judge and pass judgement even when perhaps that judgement seems obvious. I can’t see what God sees. Honestly, many people aren’t going to be converted by threat nor do I think that is what we see in the Gospels.

I feel bad that you had such bad experiences. This is not even what my main point is. I do not feel that this passages can be interpreted to say that I cannot say atheist are going to hell. Great passage love it actually. I am glad that you see acknowledge and on some levels agree with my point.

 

[christofirst]

How do we know that God doesn’t give the living (and the living includes those who have died here) a chance to understand the Truth beyond their life here and therefore have a more full expression of free will?

St. Gregory of Nyssa wondered something very similar, but his idea was shot down by St. Augustine. The Church went with Augustine.

The problem is what you wrote in parentheses. By Church teaching, once your dead, the decision is irrevocably made. But what happens at the moment of death? There might be hope there.

 

[kingston1]

St. Gregory of Nyssa wondered something very similar, but his idea was shot down by St. Augustine. The Church went with Augustine.

That’s understandable since we can’t know for sure if that were the case nor would it be good for the church to endorse such a position but it seems to me that if we are alive after death, why would the message of salvation stop at our death? Didn’t Jesus die for all of us, and do we actually reject Jesus if we are ignorant of Him? Can we express our free will in making a decision if we are in fact ignorant? The ignorant are ignorant, the rest of us are ignorant too, maybe just not of Jesus. What does our belief have to do with Jesus’ promise of salvation if we in fact never fully express our free will in rejecting Him?

I believe only the demons who fully know who God is and believe in God are doomed to hell because they know fully and completely who Jesus is but reject Him. We are stupid, ignorant wretches and have no ability to know what we believe.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut though, I had no idea who St Gregory was, I will read up more on that thanks to your sharing with me.

 

[Protestor]

I understand the feeling that the pendulum has swung too far from, “Nearly everyone is going to hell,” to “No one is going to hell.” Neither statement, of course, is necessarily correct. Von Balthasar’s “Dare we hope that all will be saved,” is very appealing for myself and others, but it is not in any way official Church teaching, I know. It is just a hope, like the hope I get from Julian of Norwich’s “All will be well” (which I know is also open to interpretation and only a private revelation anyway).

The way I see it is sort of like the old song, “Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative.” Simplistic, I know, but I think the carrot (heaven) just has a stronger appeal for myself and others than the stick (hell). But maybe some are drawn to the Church and their salvation by the threat of hell. There’s nothing really stopping you from preaching the old hell-fire if you think that is the better way.

I love Julian and her writings. I agree and I would rather tell people about heaven all day. I never enjoy saying it. I would actually love if I could draw people with a desire only to serve God not for a reward and not to avoid a consequence. To serve God because he deserves service. That is at least why I serve him.

 

[christofirst]

That’s understandable since we can’t know for sure if that were the case nor would it be good for the church to endorse such a position but it seems to me that if we are alive after death, why would the message of salvation stop at our death? Didn’t Jesus die for all of us, and do we actually reject Jesus if we are ignorant of Him? Can we express our free will in making a decision if we are in fact ignorant? The ignorant are ignorant, the rest of us are ignorant too, maybe just not of Jesus. What does our belief have to do with Jesus’ promise of salvation if we in fact never fully express our free will in rejecting Him?

I believe only the demons who fully know who God is and believe in God are doomed to hell because they know fully and completely who Jesus is but reject Him. We are stupid, ignorant wretches and have no ability to know what we believe.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut though, I had no idea who St Gregory was, I will read up more on that thanks to your sharing with me.

I wonder the same things you do! Don’t let St. Gregory of Nyssa or anything I say lead you astray, but it can be comforting to know that others have thought the same things. Trust in the wisdom of the Church, and in God’s justice and mercy!

 

[christofirst]

I love Julian and her writings. I agree and I would rather tell people about heaven all day. I never enjoy saying it. I would actually love if I could draw people with a desire only to serve God not for a reward and not to avoid a consequence. To serve God because he deserves service. That is at least why I serve him.

Great! Are you the same Protestor I was writing to earlier? I think we are having some communication issues, but God bless you!

 

[laircy]

You can’t tell atheists they ARE going to hell because while they’re alive there is still the chance they may convert. And telling them something like that often ends up only pushing them away. Not only are you judging their souls (NOT YOUR JOB!) but you’re also being counterproductive!

 

[Protestor]

Protestor: You can say anything you want. All of us can; the question is whether or not you should say something that is going to give someone the complete Truth or just YOUR individual version of it.

You may tell an atheist he is going to hell. That would, however, be an incomplete sentence in terms of giving that person the Good News of Christ’s Sacrifice for us.

A complete sentence would be this: Unless you repent and be baptized, you will end up in hell."

Notice I did not say, “I need to KNOW you have done this in order for you to be in heaven”.

Why?

Because at the moment of their death, in the stillness of their heart, they may say, “Jesus, I was wrong…and I am sorry and I believe”.

And that, Protestor, would be a repentence and a baptism of desire.

I cannot tell you who is in hell besides Satan and his demons.

I can guess (and to a certain extent, I can hope) but for me to sit here and state that someone is in hell would be arrogant.

I can tell you - the Bible says that unless YOU eat of His Flesh and drink of His Blood YOU SHALL NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

I have now told you the Truth - you may not pretend you do not know…and if you continue to reject it, well…who knows…

Everyone who cries, “Lord, Lord” will not be allowed into the kingdom…you just may be going to hell.

Wow we are almost on the same page. I think that we are close enough that quibbling over the little things is not important to me.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I have and will only say this to an atheist if they specifically ask. I am going on 4 times now and once it did not go well, once the person is now a active RCC member, once is to be determined but after I told him he did come to church with me for a while we have unfortunately not kept in touch, the last time it is to soon to know what there reaction is so far not bad though.
This is literally why I am a christian so it can work. I will look up what the Pope wrote I like him.

The emphasis is on nonjudgmenta, loving and getting involved in peoples lives, the joys and the sorrows and in that personal process sharing the joy of knowing Christ.

vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.pdf