K
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Thanks!
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georget
Guest
I’ll try again. Where in the bible does Jesus say Atheist’s go to hell?
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Protestor
Guest
All those quotes do not apply I tire of this and do not feel that explanation is necessary read them in context. You are literally talking about a conversion. I am talking about a hypothetical atheist that dies as an atheist and goes to hell as atheist it is that simple.
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Protestor
Guest
Just tell me you are joking. You do not think he means their real brothers. All men are not my brothers. Please dig up the bible commentary and show me quotes. I do not care who you are quoting as long as they are a christian and have more authority then you. Show me where in tradition that this is the way to translate this passage.
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georget
Guest
Still waiting.
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polki
Guest
If you’re talking to an atheist who doesn’t believe in God, why would they believe in hell? And if they don’t, then why would they care if you thought they were going there? You’d have to first engage them in the fact that there is an afterlife, a purpose of life, etc. I’d think, before you simply threw stones saying “you’re going to hell” otherwise I’d think they’d look at you as being a hypocrite, since none of us is perfect. After all, just calling ourselves Christians doesn’t necessarily mean we are going to Heaven.
If a Catholic is talking to a Protestant over this or that matter of doctrine, etc, then they are talking to someone who does indeed believe in hell and (I assume) both parties would want to avoid going there. So it ends up being a discussion about the best way to follow Christ so that we can build up His Church.
If a Catholic is talking to a Protestant over this or that matter of doctrine, etc, then they are talking to someone who does indeed believe in hell and (I assume) both parties would want to avoid going there. So it ends up being a discussion about the best way to follow Christ so that we can build up His Church.
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kingston1
Guest
Are you asking the OP or just in general?
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georget
Guest
I was asking the OP, (I’m thinking I’ll get no answer), but anyone can reply. Where in the bible does Jesus say Atheist’s can’t go to heaven?
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Protestor
Guest
John 3:32-36 “31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. 33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
In an effort to not treat you as a child by explaining this whole section of verses I only explained the last verse.
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life” I take this to mean christians have eternal life. What do you think? I also think that I can affirm the opposite from this statement that whoever does not believe in the Son does not have eternal life. You might think this is a stretch I do not.
“whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life” I take this to mean non-christians go to hell. What do you think? If you think that atheist obey Jesus I need some serious explanation on how.
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Contarini
Guest
You’re not making any sense.
Catholics won’t say that anyone is necessarily in hell because they don’t believe that they can know this. You’re asking “why not tell the truth”–but Catholics don’t think that this is the truth, so why say it?
We are sinners and will go to hell if we do not repent and accept God’s grace. But a devoutly religious person is more in danger than a nonreligious person, because religion can function as a barrier to grace, insulating people from a real encounter with God. Hence, it’s a bad idea to pick on atheists–that’s just a form of scapegoating.
I agree that Catholics do sometimes beat up on Protestants and that this is also a form of scapegoating. But the closer people are to you, the clearer it is to say how and where they are wrong, and the more responsibility they have for their errors.
Most atheists have never even conceived of the possibility of the true God existing, and their atheism is a rejection of idolatry.
And in our culture, at least, that idolatry is quite likely to be Protestant (though it’s often Catholic as well, of course, and Catholics bear a lot of responsibility for Protestant idolatry).
The ex-Christian secularist I know best, personally, had a Southern Baptist pastor for a father. This is not an unusual story.
Edwin
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Protestor
Guest
I was trying to do other thing today and your question was not my first or I just did not see it till now. I was trying to go through and answer everyones concerns. I try and take everyones point seriously and try to address them critically. I am not sure how you can be a christian and think critically about this subject after having read the bible and not think that atheist go to hell. I equate not going to heaven with not having the ability to enter heaven if you do not please tell me so I can try and find a sufficient quote.
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Contarini
Guest
It shouldn’t be that hard to explain.
Ever heard of the Golden Rule?
And no, I’m not saying that atheists earn their salvation. I’m saying that no one can practice the Golden Rule except through the grace of God.
Still more, when you find people loving their enemies (also something Jesus talked about, as I presume you know–not to speak to you like a child or anything
), you have found people in whom God’s grace is working.Therefore, such people must believe in Jesus, even if they think they don’t.
Believing in Jesus most not refer primarily to holding a set of intellectual opinions.
Certainly this is true in the negative sense. I suspect we both agree that one can hold any number of intellectual propositions about Jesus and still go to hell.
Edwin
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edwest2
Guest
The point the Church is making is that it can’t be sure that this particular person is in hell with the (still debated) exception of Judas. That said, but reading Christ’s words, few (whatever number that means) will get in, and if you read Corinthians, a few more definite things are mentioned.
biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm
As it was presented to me, God is just. Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.
Pope Benedict:
theguardian.com/world/2007/mar/27/catholicism.religion
I don’t know what the OP means by little things. Further, it is not appropriate to generalize ALL Catholics as being the same. Some are more learned, some are not.
Peace,
Ed
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Prayer_Warrior
Guest
Those quotes absolutely apply and I’ve applied them in context. None of us are permitted to judge a person’s salvation. You asked in your first post why we think it is wrong to say it to a person and I just responded, using Scripture, the reason we believe it is wrong. To which I get a response that includes “I tire of this”.
You seem to think that effective evangelization is judging a person’s soul and telling them they are going to hell unless they repent and believe. That seems to be your idea of taking a hard line. Many priests tried that tactic for many years, and guess what happened? A lot of people went to Church out of fear, not love of God.
Regarding your hypothetical atheist, it is appropriate is to tell him or her of the requirement of faith and repentance as part of salvation. It is appropriate to talk about eternal separation from God as well as eternal union with God. From your first post, you make it sound as if Catholics don’t do that because they “quibble with protestants about interfaith disputes”. Nothing could be further from the truth. We absolutely tell non-believers the truth about faith. The truth is neither hard nor soft; it is simply true. The Catholic Church speaks the truth. One look at the Catechism and you will see that we absolutely believe and preach that faith is necessary to salvation. Most Catholic lay people who are trying to evangelize non-believers will speak the truth the best they know how but without the judgmental statement “you’re going to hell”.
From the CCC
183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16).
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”
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Incomplete
Guest
While it makes sense to infer the first part, that Christians have eternal life, that does not necessarily mean that non-Christians don’t. It just doesn’t say that.
The second part, about obeying…to me, obeying is being obedient. It isn’t about belief, so doesn’t necessarily pertain to atheists. I know atheists who are very much obedient to what Scripture tells us to do, even if they don’t believe in God. I suppose this is because we all have the law written in our hearts. I know Christians who aren’t obedient. I have met Christians of the once-saved always-saved variety who have said that since Christ died for all of our sins, past and future, we can do anything we want…we are saved.
And that’s the problem with all of us trying to interpret Scripture on our own…too many interpretations.
There’s that, and trying to reconcile all of Scripture. Because, for example, there is the parable of the sheep and goats. There is not a word in it about belief. It appears to be saying that salvation is based on what you do.
But Catholics do talk about hell. We just don’t point to any individual and say we know for sure they are going to hell, or look at someone who has died and say we know for certain they are there. A friend of my daughter’s is convinced his grandma is in hell because she was an atheist; as Catholics, we would say that we have no idea what happened in the last seconds of her life. She could have been offered and accepted Christ in those seconds.
Catholics would say that to reject God is to end in hell. But atheists aren’t necessarily rejecting Him, and we don’t know what happens as they are dying.
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georget
Guest
I
Incomplete
Guest
This is well said.
The atheists I know don’t believe in hell, so they aren’t worried about it. You need to first help them believe God exists. Maybe the “going to hell” thing has worked for you, but I have never known an atheist who believed they were going there because they didn’t believe hell exists.
Yet, for ALL of us, there is that possibility. You can be a Christian, believe in the divinity of Jesus, and choose to reject Him anyway. We have free will and can separate ourselves from God. That is what Catholics believe. Often this rejection doesn’t come all at once; it comes from deciding in little things to turn away, and we just keep moving further down that path.
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edwest2
Guest
No, we don’t know what happens as atheists are dying. Some pretty clear Scripture:
biblehub.com/matthew/10-32.htm
biblehub.com/matthew/10-33.htm
Peace,
Ed
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Incomplete
Guest
The parable of the sheep and the goats is also pretty clear Scripture, and nowhere talks about beliefs.
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edwest2
Guest
I think we can choose to listen to God or to listen to the world. And the world, via the devil, always wraps its wrong messages in pretty packages and lots of excuses.
A fellow sinner,
Ed
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