Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'

[RobGentner]

I agree, i’m a spanish speaker as well.

**Reff, Welcome to the Catholic faith! You are in my prayers, during your journey into the faith. Remember, Jesus is truly in the Eucharist. That awesome FACT will make your trip easier. You will get to be united with our Lord every time you receive communion. Isn’t that GREAT? God Bless **

 

[RobGentner]

Catholics in England, to my knowledge, have not yet received any concrete information of the changes in the prayers of the Mass so my knowledge of these changes comes from the pages of this forum.
Frankly I am horrified by the examples displayed of the changes about to be made. They display the triviality and ultimate futility similar to the discussions of mediaeaval philosophers about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.
In a world of militant secularism, blatant materialism, total injustice towards the starving and the oppressed and the haemorrageing of the numbers of the faithful, the deliberations of the great and the good of the Church appear to be the equivalent of re-arrainging the deckchairs of the Titanic…

Kevin, one word :

AMEN!

 

[GemmaRose]

Catholics in England, to my knowledge, have not yet received any concrete information of the changes in the prayers of the Mass so my knowledge of these changes comes from the pages of this forum.
Frankly I am horrified by the examples displayed of the changes about to be made. They display the triviality and ultimate futility similar to the discussions of mediaeaval philosophers about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.
In a world of militant secularism, blatant materialism, total injustice towards the starving and the oppressed and the haemorrageing of the numbers of the faithful, the deliberations of the great and the good of the Church appear to be the equivalent of re-arrainging the deckchairs of the Titanic.
In the example quoted by snhs the writer admits the new version “says more or less the same thing at the end of the day”. If this is true why bother to change. If it is in any way superior to the present translation the difference is so marginal as to be not worth the effort.
The present translation is perfectly adequate as long as it is said with due reverence and attention. I fear the whole process reveals once again the woeful priorities and blinkered outlook of the upper hierarchy and I pray that they will address their attentions to the vastly greater problems facing our Holy Church

Kevin, two words:

AMEN ! and

WELCOME ! (to CAF)

 

[AMDGtoo]

Kevin:

Just a friendly note here: You’re raising a ‘false dichotomy’.

That The Church is concerned over less than correct translations does not mean that it is paying ‘less attention’ to other issues, especially to those issues which you feel are more important than this one.

Even if the issue were of as little importance as you think (and it is indeed more important than you think), it still doesn’t make it a ‘non-issue’.

Especially since all those major issues you worry about are addressed by The Church (meaning hierarchy and laity) every day.

So rather than get all exercised over the Church ‘wasting time’ (according to you) over an issue you feel is not ‘important’ (again, according to **you), **why not let the Church do what it needs to do, and you do what you need to do.

Do all those ‘important things’ yourself to the best of your ability, and submit yourself, in humility, to accepting the Church and what it is teaching on this ‘unimportant’ (according to you) issue without griping or complaining about its lack of importance in the grand scheme of Christianity.

God bless.

Great post!

 

[Muppett]

Kevin,

I must agree with the AMEN and WELCOME responses. Since they have already said what I was going to say I will just add:

ALLELUIA !!!

Let’s all love one another and respect each other’s opinions.

 

[RobGentner]

Great post!

AMDGtoo , my friend I disagree with you.:tsktsk: Not a great post!
Tantum ergo:

especially to those issues which you feel are more important than this one.

Tantum ergo, my friend I still agree with Kevin. I was here from birth, I lived through the “changes” in the sixtiys. now I will live through the changes of the 2000s. But CHILDREN ARE BEING MURDERED 271 per minute in our country alone. When will our CHURCH say STOP IT!!! When we we rise up to Stop it? Wait, I forgot we have to make changes in the order of the Mass, how foolish of me to think HUMAN LIFE is more important. Use the presses and paper to STOP ABORTION or FEED THE CHILDREN who are starving, not to make changes in the Mass. Yea, maybe I may be a little off, maybe the Mass changes are more important than saving lives from hunger or abortion, but by God I hope not!

Kevin, I say to you - AMEN AGAIN, my friend

I actually love all you guys, at least you care about something! :hug3:

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Rob:

Point of information, please, my friend.

I never, ever said that the Mass changes were ‘more important than saving lives from hunger or abortion.’

You did. And once again, that sort of 'misunderstanding winds up attempting to make ‘the Mass changes’ into an argument of “If the Church is working on this, they aren’t paying enough attention to BIGGER Issues.” And that isn’t true.

Where I disagree with what I am getting from yours and Kevin’s posts is that you seem to think that attention being paid to a ‘lesser issue’ than abortion and hunger–which I totally agree are huge issues–is somehow ‘taking away’ from time that ‘could have been spent’ on those big issues.

And that just isn’t true, you know. It really isn’t. That is that ‘false dichotomy’, ‘either/or’ mentality that is taking over common sense and making you think that unless the Church is going after (admittedly very important) issues 24/7, **up to your speed and to your satisfaction, **it isn’t doing much of anything at all.

Would I like to see ‘more’ done? Certainly. Do I think that **all of us **who have lived through this time have not done anywhere near enough, especially with regard to the holocaust of abortion? Most certainly I think that.

Do I then think that changes to the liturgy should be ‘swept aside’ until the magical moment when we have stopped abortion, conquered world hunger, established a unified Catholic faith etc.?

No, I do not.

Why not? Because life goes on. Life is a mix. There are ‘big’ things and small things. Some of the ‘small things’ don’t look as important but over the long run they have an impact on the big things that often was not foreseen, because people were so busy paying attention to and arguing about the ‘big things’. Part of the reason that we are so ‘fragmented’ and divisive in our Catholic faith today is rooted in what happened to our liturgy over the last 40 years. Yes, it is. I was there too, and I know this.

Until we get ‘sorted out’ into a unity in the LITTLE THINGS, we are not going to be able to do as much as we could on the BIG THINGS.

You have to have a firm foundation before you start building upon it. Yes, it is important to get that building up. . .but if you don’t have the foundation, then sooner or later that building is going to collapse and you’ll have to do it over again. . .taking more time, and possibly having a lot more people injured when the collapse takes place.

Again, I have no problem with working as individuals on the big issues. I do myself. But I do have a problem with the people who greet what they call the ‘little, picky things’ with disgust and contempt and rail, “Why isn’t the Church doing something about the BIG STUFF INSTEAD?” Maybe the Church could be doing the more that they DEMAND if so many people weren’t outright dismissing, denying, and causing grief about those ‘little things’ which the Church needs as its foundation.

Because the liturgy is a major part of the Church’s foundation, you see. Part of the problem we face now is precisely due to so many little ‘indians’ who have taken the liturgy and many other parts of the faith and ‘tweaked’ it --because, you see, it’s only ‘a little thing’ after all. And we have Masses that are ‘unrecognizable’ as Masses. We have no ‘unity’, no conformity, we have priests making the liturgy a free-for-all and congregations doing the same, and to hades with what “Rome” says because “Rome should be working on hunger and abortion”.

Yes, Rome should. . .but it should also be working on the liturgy.

I welcome people here–and I welcome their ideas even if I don’t agree with them, and I’ll cheerfully defend my own as well–but I won’t pretend that ‘false dichotomies’ are real, and I won’t kowtow to the “this is too small a thing when we should be doing X” arguments. It is precisely because it is so small a thing that we should be doing it first. And since it is ‘so small’–the quicker we ‘obey’ and ‘just do it’. . .the quicker we will get to the ‘big issues.’

God bless.

 

[RobGentner]

Rob: Point of information, please, my friend. I never, ever said that the Mass changes were ‘more important than saving lives from hunger or abortion.’ You did… .

Actually I didn’t say they were more important than abortion or hunger. I stressed that they weren’t … didn’t I?

Where I disagree with from what I am getting from yours and Kevin’s posts is that you seem to think that attention being paid to a ‘lesser issue’ than abortion and hunger–which I totally agree are huge issues–is somehow ‘taking away’ from time that ‘could have been spent’ on those big issues. And that just isn’t true, you know. It really isn’t…

Yes, that just is really true, you know. It really is! You describe it as a false dichotomy. You don’t agree that if you spend time doing task X you take that time away from being able to be able to do more of task Y? Remember that there is only so much time available. Waste is waste. If it isn’t broken why fix it? To make it more politically correct. To appease the nitpickers? It has worked for 40 years why pretend to fix it now? Why confuse our people more? Stop the pratice of taking of the Eucharist in the hands. “Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive communion in the hand.” – Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta (To which I say AMEN!) Stop the use of “Special” Ministers at every Mass. I am one) of being OVERUSED! Stop giving Body of Christ in two species as the norm. Stop all the ****! But changing words – words? If it wasn’t for The Eucharist we would just be another Christian group! :banghead:

up to your speed and to your satisfaction,.

Up to God’s satifaction or do you actually believe He wants abortion and world hunger to continue just because we don’t do enough to end them?

Would I like to see ‘more’ done? Certainly. Do I think that ** all of us ** who have lived through this time have ** not done anywhere near enough **, especially with regard to the holocaust of abortion? Most certainly I think that.

So do I:thumbsup:

Do I then think that changes to the liturgy should be ‘swept aside’ until the magical moment when we have stopped abortion, conquered world hunger, established a unified Catholic faith etc.?

If it is not broken, don’t fix it! I was here in the 60s when we “fixed it”. I go to Traditional Masses when I have an opportunity. Actually I don’t give a Hoot what we do, so long as Jesus is there in the Eucharist. I could care less about the language I have been to Japaneese, German, Korean, Italian and Native American Masses. JESUS was at all of them!

Part of the reason that we are so ‘fragmented’ and divisive in our Catholic faith today is rooted in what happened to our liturgy over the last 40 years. Yes, it is. I was there too, and I know this.

Yea, I agree, I know it also, and here we go changing “small things” again. Remember: “Walking is place might give the illusion of progress, but unless you are doing something to move forward it remains only an illusion” Stamp out abortion and we will end a lot of other wrongs in our nation. We are a culture of Death. May God have mercy on our souls

You have to have a firm foundation before you start building upon it. Yes, it is important to get that building up. . .but if you don’t have the foundation, then sooner or later that building is going to collapse and you’ll have to do it over again. . .taking more time, and possibly having a lot more people injured when the collapse takes place

We do, they are called Sacraments and Mass. What better foundation do we need?

Again, I have no problem with working as individuals on the big issues.

Now isn’t that nice of you! :dts:

Because the liturgy is a major part of the Church’s foundation, you see. Part of the problem we face now is precisely due to so many little ‘indians’ who have taken the liturgy and many other parts of the faith and ‘tweaked’ it --because, you see, it’s only ‘a little thing’ after all. And we have Masses that are ‘unrecognizable’ as Masses.

So your idea is to tweak it again? Aren’t you precious! :whacky: Nope, sorry, but I disagree, Rome should leave it alone or just go back to when they did have the liturgy right!"

It is precisely because it is so small a thing that we should be doing it first. And since it is ‘so small’–the quicker we ‘obey’ and ‘just do it’. . .the quicker we will get to the ‘big issues.’

It is only a small change, what difference does it make? Only God knows! I hioe He is happy with what our Church has as priorities. I know I am not, but i will not be silent and I will obey my Church, because like my country. Right or Wrong, it is mine and I love it.

May God bless you. Lets pray for one another.

 

[Brendan]

It is only a small change, what difference does it make? Only God knows! I hioe He is happy with what our Church has as priorities.

The wonderful thing about being part of the True Church of God is that it is not limited in what it can do. It can do ALL things in He who strengthens us.

To deny that the Church can work on multiple things successfully is to either deny that God is all powerful, or that to claim that God does not work through His Church.

If God was so single minded as you seem to think He is, He would not call some people to completive monastic life and call others, like Mother Theresa, to the medicant life and still others to married life.

He offers different gifts to enrich His Church, including Liturgical theologians and socal activists; He gives us both abortion protestors and gifted translators. And He does this because He knows, as do we all, that His Church can accomplish it all.

So don’t set up any either\or false choices, rather, place your trust in God and expect BOTH good translations AND an end to abortion and hunger.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Something that will probably interest you, Rob, since you ‘were there’ when things changed first, as well as I, is that the changes are actually going BACK to the ‘original’ changes. If you remember the Masses from 1967-1970. . .those words, which ‘changed’ with the adaptation of the Pope Paul VI Mass, are what we are ‘going back to’.

Actually, Rob, you said this:

Wait, I forgot we have to make changes in the order of the Mass, how foolish of me to think HUMAN LIFE is more important. Use the presses and paper to STOP ABORTION or FEED THE CHILDREN who are starving, not to make changes in the Mass. Yea, maybe I may be a little off, maybe the Mass changes are more important than saving lives from hunger or abortion, but by God I hope not!

False dichotomy. I’ll repeat it. You are attempting to turn this into a ‘The bishops are trying to change the order of Mass, how petty and stupid a thing that is. Abortion and hunger are much bigger issues. They should stop making petty changes and only do the BIG ISSUES.’

 

[whatevergirl]

Sometimes we say this in my new parish, sometimes not. In today’s mass, I noticed that the priest presiding didn’t say…May the peace of our Lord be with you always…to which we would typically refrain–and also with you. He didn’t say it, so it’s not so much that the congregation isn’t saying. I haven’t read through the thread–is that everyone else’s experience, or is the priest saying his part, and the congregation is NOT replying in return?

 

[mnealon1]

From what I am hearing and reading the changes will not come into effect until the whole translation of the Mass book is approved. The changes will not take place before pastroral prepatation of Priests and for approptite catechesis of the lay family - says Cardinal Francis Arinze.
Changes will see I confess, changed to include " through my fault, through my fault, throught my most grevious fault.
Before Holy Communion the congregation will pray, " Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed." The response to
" The Lord be with you " becomes " And with your spirit.
The creed begins with" I believe" while the Gloria and Sanctus will also be modifided.
It also gives composers time to provode new musical settings for the Mass.
The new translation will be closer to the original Latin and especially to the Scripture.
I hope this throws a little light on the subject. I imagine it will take some time to get used to it just as when the Latin mass was turned into English. Sounds good though More with tradition. God Bless

 

[RobGentner]

Something that will probably interest you, Rob, since you ‘were there’ when things changed first, as well as I, is that the changes are actually going BACK to the ‘original’ changes. If you remember the Masses from 1967-1970. . .those words, which ‘changed’ with the adaptation of the Pope Paul VI Mass, are what we are ‘going back to’.

Yes, I knew that.

False dichotomy. I’ll repeat it.

Oh you just like that word! I have a MBA, and it took me 5 minutes to find it oon the Internet and over an hour to understand what it meant in the concept you are using it.:yup:

You are attempting to turn this into a ‘The bishops are trying to change the order of Mass, how petty and stupid a thing that is. Abortion and hunger are much bigger issues. They should stop making petty changes and only do the BIG ISSUES.’

No not really, You actually misunderstand me. I support changes when needed. I don’t see anything wrong with our church changing, after all, we are a LIVING Church! I also don’t see any reason for the changes but as always I support my Chruch and their choices, What choice do I have? It is my immortal soul I am trying to save here! However , I “Really” “Truly” deep in the core of my being believe and that our Church could have abortion STOPPED tomorrow *if it was a priority * the same with our country. 271 children murdered every minute in the USA. If we killed 271 animals every minute can you imaging the outcry?

For the Love of God, These are God’s Children!!!

Bless you my friend.

 

[RobGentner]

The wonderful thing about being part of the True Church of God is that it is not limited in what it can do. It can do ALL things in He who strengthens us.

To deny that the Church can work on multiple things successfully is to either deny that God is all powerful, or that to claim that God does not work through His Church.

My friend , to** disagree **is not to deny! I disagree with our Church using time to make changes at this time, until we end abortion how can we believe we are in full communcation with our Loving God? Will words put us there or actions?

If God was so single minded as you seem to think He is, He would not call some people to completive monastic life and call others, like Mother Theresa, to the medicant life and still others to married life.

Our ways are the ways of Humans, we can not and do not understand God’s ways. That being said I can tell you that he hates sin! As you said he gives different gifts to enrich His Church and yes we can do all things with God’s help.

So don’t set up any either\or false choices, rather, place your trust in God and expect BOTH good translations AND an end to abortion and hunger.

I am not setting up either/or false choices “False dichotomy”
as our brother Tantum ergo likes to repeat. I AM CRYING OUT TO HAVE THE CHURCH STOP OUR CHILDREN FROM BEING KILLED! TODAY!!! Tommorrow, change whatever you want to help us worship our God. It is called priorities.

God bless

 

[Muppett]

" Stamp out abortion and we will end a lot of other wrongs in our nation. We are a culture of Death. May God have mercy on our souls"

I agree with this. Fr. John Corapi and many others have said that abortion is the #1 evil sin in the world today. He also says that politics is not going to fix this. Only prayer can change it.

I wish I knew all the answers to what is right and wrong but we all discern and do the best we can. I too will follow what ever the church declares even though I don’t pretend to understand the whys of everything. Let us all keep praying that through the grace of God things will work in accordance to His will.

God Bless us one and all.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.