Catholics: Will stupid people go to hell?

[Syele]

I see alot of stuff around here about how those outside the Catholic Church will all go to hell. Some argue well those who never heard of the Catholic Church wont, other argue yes they will. ugh. I even see quotes from the CCC and popes that appear to conflict (Yeah yeah I know only the smart people can see they don’t REALLY Conflict )

So say you have a person who isn’t all that smart, he hears of several different churches. Wants to do right but doesn’t know which is right. He never swims the Tiber. He just does his best to to what he thinks God wants. Now I can see condemning to hell people who KNOW what the truth is and rejects it, but what if he just isn’t sure? Hell or no? Please explain why you answer how you do.

 

[tGette]

No Christian should even answer this question.

We are not allowed to judge people concerning their eternal destiny. No one knows but God Himself. When it gets right down to it, we do not even have the right to say someone is going to hell because they have not “accepted Jesus”. I know that sounds far-fetched, but it is not our call to make that judgement.

 

[Trishie]

It is not the teaching of the Catholic Church that those outside the Catholic Church go to hell.
It is the teaching of the Church that the redemption of souls is the action of Jesus Christ. Those who live lives according to gospel values of love and mutual consideration in good faith, even if they don’t personally know Christ, go to heaven. As you say, some people do not have access to the truth, but live good and loving lives nevertheless. What kind of religion would relegate them to hell! Not the Catholic Church.

God bless you, Trishie

See you in heaven some day, thanks to God’s mercy!

 

[tGette]

Amen! Amen!

 

[RobHom]

Amen! Amen!

DITTO!!!

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I see alot of stuff around here about how those outside the Catholic Church will all go to hell. Some argue well those who never heard of the Catholic Church wont, other argue yes they will. ugh. I even see quotes from the CCC and popes that appear to conflict (Yeah yeah I know only the smart people can see they don’t REALLY Conflict )

So say you have a person who isn’t all that smart, he hears of several different churches. Wants to do right but doesn’t know which is right. He never swims the Tiber. He just does his best to to what he thinks God wants. Now I can see condemning to hell people who KNOW what the truth is and rejects it, but what if he just isn’t sure? Hell or no? Please explain why you answer how you do.

Before I answer this I have to point out that it seems you have taken offense to the Catholic claim of having the “fullness of the truth”. I have to wonder how worried you would be if an athiest or agnostic asked you this question, but asked it in a broader sense, about all the worlds religion? The question would go something like this, “how can you say Christianity is the only way? What if a Buddhist never accepted Christ, but did his best to do what he thinks God wants?”

Anyways the answer to your question > I don’t know.

God bless

 

[Syele]

let me clarify a little. I’m not asking for judgment on any specific person. if I was than Id agree that would be very unreasonable. Saying that some people do go to hell, and what sort of types of people go to hell is done in scripture even so I can’t really see how it can be said that no Christian can answer… Scripture says, for example, that Liars cannot go to heaven. Naturally that means habitual liars who do not repent, but it still says quite clearly they go to hell.

Secondly I get various answers from various Catholics with Various (and seemingly opposing infallible quotes) to the whole can you get to heaven without being a member of the Catholic Church question. The stupid person is just one example. in fact its one that I commonly see ignored with answers like " Well, those who never heard the truth would not be condemned." Great, what if they did hear it but didn’t understand? Or what if they understood what each church believes and don’t know which is right? How does one define a Heretic? At what point does watering down the whole no salvation outside the church thing become so watered down its the same as the protestant position? And if its the same, then why the huge argument against the Protestant belief that there is both an invisible and visible Church?

 

[ChristianKnight]

I believe if you believen the Trinity, believe that Jesus died for your sins, and try to follow in christ’s foot steps, and try your best not to sin, and worship them, you go to heaven, but I am not sure, I am not god/

 

[BlestOne]

Perhaps it is the understanding of the statement that you are having trouble with… you are not alone, many Catholics have a problem with it as well…

Let me explain…
No salvation outside the Church…
Catholics consider any Christians part of the Church… but not full fledged card carrying Catholics as differences have separated us…
So yes as much as some would like to deny it… if you are Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist…Anglican, Episcopalian, Presbyterian… or what ever flavor you happen to be, you are a part of the Catholic Church…but unfortunately some do not believe in the graces of the sacraments so they lack this advantage, or some don’t fully believe in the real presence and lack the graces from a sacramental communion… So Catholics believe you can go to heaven but it may be harder to attain salvation because you lack the sacraments… it’s like going into the playoffs without a playbook… your team could pull off a Hail Mary and win the game, but it is harder without knowing the plays…

Besides… like everyone else said… we know it is God’s job to judge not ours…

There were popes in the past that warned the Lutherans that they may have lost salvation… but only the first generation that willfully turned their backs on the Truth.

Why people are so concerned with Catholic “rules” when they aren’t Catholic is beyond me… like do I as a Catholic care what JW’s think about the salvation of Catholics? NO!

 

[tGette]

I wanted to leave a good detailed post, but it is getting too late (or early now, I guess) and I do not want to be bumbling my words.

In short, as I said before, we have no right to judge.
Even if someone broke every commandment, denied the Holy Spirit devoutely, and died blowing up a church; we still have no right to claim they are going to Hell.

Our Father is just. He knows each person’s situation and knows their worthiness of Heaven.
(This is my cop-out answer because I am too lazy to give a detailed response. By God’s grace I will do that tomorrow, I guess later today now at this time.)

I might go to hell for being up this late, I do know that. ;o)

 

[Dauphin]

A person suffering from some form of mental retardation can be saved without holding the Catholic faith as long as they are baptised. The situation is similar with infants and others who are not capable of reason.

If a person has reached the age of reason, however, they cannot be saved without explicit faith in Christ and union with His Catholic and Apostolic Church, with the exception of those who are suffering from invincible ignorance (ie. ignorance which is impossible to overcome).

 

[Syele]

Why people are so concerned with Catholic “rules” when they aren’t Catholic is beyond me… like do I as a Catholic care what JW’s think about the salvation of Catholics? NO!

Frankly, I find the question very intriguing because unlike JWs who seem to uniformly agree that my chances of going to heaven are about 0(probably less), the Catholics seem confused about the matter. I was just reading another thread on this very forum filled with debate over it. Protestants are heretics and going to hell not purgatory, no they aren’t, yes they are… both sides are throwing out Scripture, CCC quotes and Papal declarations. Yes, I have seen it explained how you did too.

Then I cant help but think of various threads from the past with Catholics trying to convince me that The Catholic Church holds the fullness of Truth. That She never contradicts herself. And I have no choice but to think… this topic is really not so complicated, how to get to heaven should be a basic theology not a huge thing that is really hard to get. After all the JWs seem pretty unified on the topic. I don’t get why its so complicated and there is no consensus if it doesn’t contradict and there is fullness of truth?

And as for the Judging thing, don’t take it overboard… there is a difference between judging what is sound Christian truth and judging an individuals heart. Even when talking about who goes to hell. Hell is not a vague concept in Scripture that is supposed to be a mystery to us. there are some specific things we know about it. If its impossible to know how people end up there then we are all in big trouble.

 

[Dauphin]

Frankly, I find the question very intriguing because unlike JWs who seem to uniformly agree that my chances of going to heaven are about 0(probably less), the Catholics seem confused about the matter. I was just reading another thread on this very forum filled with debate over it. Protestants are heretics and going to hell not purgatory, no they aren’t, yes they are… both sides are throwing out Scripture, CCC quotes and Papal declarations. Yes, I have seen it explained how you did too.

The teaching of the Church is actually very clear and consistent. Most of the people on these forums who call themselves Catholic are not truly Catholic, since they reject the Catholic teaching on salvation. This is a product of the crisis of belief which occured following the Second Vatican Council. Following the council, people developed the mistaken impression that the faith had changed and a Catholic could now believe that there is salvation outside the Church. In reality, the Council did not change the Catholic teaching on salvation, since no Council of the Church has the authority to change truths laid down by God.

Those “Catholics” who insist that there is salvation outside the Church are not bothered by infallible papal declarations which say the exact opposite, because they are members of a new religion which was created by modernists after the council. This religion has no doctrine - only feelings.

There’s no doubt in my mind that these people deny the Catholic doctrine out of good motivations. They think it’s “mean” to say that there’s no salvation outside the Church, so they tell Protestants there is. Unfortunately, telling untruths about salvation is the exact opposite of charity. A truly charitable Catholic will inform protestants about the Catholic teaching on salvation, out a true desire that they will be saved.

 

[Syele]

A person suffering from some form of mental retardation can be saved without holding the Catholic faith as long as they are baptised. The situation is similar with infants and others who are not capable of reason.

If a person has reached the age of reason, however, they cannot be saved without explicit faith in Christ and union with His Catholic and Apostolic Church, with the exception of those who are suffering from invincible ignorance (ie. ignorance which is impossible to overcome).

By stupid I didn’t mean mentally ill. I just meant not very bright and just don’t know.

Religion a says: Purple Dinosaurs will judge us on our actions after we die.
Religion b says; No, it will be the green cows! We are right 100% about everything, believe us!
Religion c says: You are both wrong, it will be the puppies! Can’t you see how they love unconditionally? They know all!

Just cause someone understands the meanings of all those doesn’t mean they know for sure which is truth, if any. people from a b and c may all explain their position very clearly. Suppose a and c agree that simply the desire and effort to believe rightly will give them favor but b insists that all a and c believers will go to hell. How uncertain must you be to be invincibly ignorant? if you aren’t smart enough to even get a remote idea, are you then safe from hell? (The God isn’t mean to idiots clause) Does that mean if you are smart but cant figure it out you are more damned cause you rejected the truth, thinking the other option was right?

I don’t see this as near as much of a problem if you don,t have one party claiming they are 100% right.

 

[Dauphin]

By stupid I didn’t mean mentally ill. I just meant not very bright and just don’t know.

Yes, and I answered that question. Unless the person is incapable of reason or is suffering from invincible ignorance, they cannot be saved without faith in Christ and union with His Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[Dauphin]

I don’t see this as near as much of a problem if you don,t have one party claiming they are 100% right.

There is no problem. Your analysis presupposes that there is no such thing as Divine grace, and that all assertions will carry the same weight for someone predisposed to do the will of God.
There’s no reason to accept this premise.

 

[tGette]

I knew being up this late I would not be able to get to sleep…so I am posting again.

• First I want to say something an atheist said which made me think: “How can anyone in Heaven be happy knowing they have loved ones in hell?”

Anyways…

I do not want to give the impression that I am saying there is salvation outside the Church, I am simply saying I do not know where someone’s soul is going and I have no right in making said claim, whether it is on an individual’s soul or in a generic sense such as this.

Firstly, Syele, the Catholic Church has the fullness of revealed truth. There is an infinite amount of wisdom for us to gain.

Now, (from a Catholic stand-point) we are considering the Church God’s Kindgom on earth. So when the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church means that the Church has the keys to Heaven (as they were given to Saint Peter the Apostle). In a sense, when you are in the Church you are in Heaven, though imperfectly because it is on earth. You still have the responsibility of following Church teaching to remain in God’s Grace…simply being Catholic does no one any good.)

There is a clause, so to speak. Purgatory (God’s perfect example of His perfect mercy):
Here, though God has deemed someone worthy of Heaven, they must be purified and purged of sin to be able to enter the perfection of Heaven. So, when one dies, they still have an opportunity for salvation. I do not know if someone is able to accept Christ here or not. Once again, I do not know how God is judging us.

I’m sorry…this is tough…it’s late.

Being that we are paralleling the Church and Heaven…there is no salvation outside the Church because there is no salvation outside of Heaven. The Church having the “keys to Heaven” allows someone the access to the fullness of revealed truth which makes getting to Heaven almost guaranteed (or easier…bad choice of word maybe) for them upon death. (Again, we do not know for sure if they all get there immediately.)

This has strayed much from your original post, my apologies.

God is going to judge justly upon someone genuinely unable to decipher the many “truths” on earth. I just cannot say what that just judgement is. Maybe he judges them for being stupid sending them to hell (which is that really their fault?), maybe he sees they were genuine and through purgatory they can be made worthy of Heaven? I do not know.

God is just…nobody knows for sure how He judges.

 

[Syele]

There is no problem. Your analysis presupposes that there is no such thing as Divine grace, and that all assertions will carry the same weight for someone predisposed to do the will of God.
There’s no reason to accept this premise.

of course there is divine grace. Thing is God wishes for all to be saved. None could be saved at all without Divine Grace. I invented three ludicrous topics as debated cause I don’t want to debate a specific topic but the fact that some topics are debated.

The question is not “is Grace required from God to be saved”, but “what else is required to be saved”. In particular a specific church membership. Many people truly do seek God and want to do His will and yet do not all agree. Some simply aren’t sure what to think, though they want to know the answers. If God judges us or if he instead assigns the job to purple dinos, or green cows or loving puppies, How would that change what we are being Judged upon? Id say it doesn’t.

 

[Dauphin]

of course there is divine grace. Thing is God wishes for all to be saved. None could be saved at all without Divine Grace. I invented three ludicrous topics as debated cause I don’t want to debate a specific topic but the fact that some topics are debated.

The question is not “is Grace required from God to be saved”, but “what else is required to be saved”. In particular a specific church membership. Many people truly do seek God and want to do His will and yet do not all agree. Some simply aren’t sure what to think, though they want to know the answers. If God judges us or if he instead assigns the job to purple dinos, or green cows or loving puppies, How would that change what we are being Judged upon? Id say it doesn’t.

Anyone (barring those who are incapable of reason or suffering from invincible ignorance) who rejects faith in Christ and does not enter His Church has manifestly rejected Divine grace and will be damned.

 

[Syele]

Anyone (barring those who are incapable of reason or suffering from invincible ignorance) who rejects faith in Christ and does not enter His Church has manifestly rejected Divine grace and will be damned.

You claimed invincible ignorance is “ignorance that is impossible to overcome” All religions have an element that is not completely understood and must be accepted on faith. Whatever that point is in each religion is gonna be impossible to overcome. I cannot definitivly prove (as one example)that God exists nor that He does not. I can look at all the evidence before me and try to come up with a logical conclusion. Even so, that would be an “educated guess” and I might likely “believe it on faith” but it is impossible to overcome my lack of knowledge on some subjects. By your definition everyone is invincible ignorant on quite a few topics.