Catholics: Will stupid people go to hell?

[cathopologist]

Catholics: Will stupid people go to hell?
I would never call anyone “stupid”, not even Protestants or Muslims. It is a rather offensive word that undermines God’s creation. Just my two cents.

 

[tGette]

Excellent point cathopologist!

 

[Dauphin]

You claimed invincible ignorance is “ignorance that is impossible to overcome” All religions have an element that is not completely understood and must be accepted on faith. Whatever that point is in each religion is gonna be impossible to overcome. I cannot definitivly prove (as one example)that God exists nor that He does not. I can look at all the evidence before me and try to come up with a logical conclusion. Even so, that would be an “educated guess” and I might likely “believe it on faith” but it is impossible to overcome my lack of knowledge on some subjects. By your definition everyone is invincible ignorant on quite a few topics.

I’m referring to knowledge of the teaching, not understanding of the mysteries of faith which only God posesses.

All the teaching of the Catholic faith can be known. Invincible ignorance is a state in which the person has no way of knowing these teachings.

 

[Syele]

Catholics: Will stupid people go to hell?
I would never call anyone “stupid”, not even Protestants or Muslims. It is a rather offensive word that undermines God’s creation. Just my two cents.

they are only hypothetical stupid people. I do not go around calling people stupid as a general rule. I suppose I could have said “Will people who aren’t smart all go to hell?” or “Will people who can’t understand simple concepts but aren’t mentally ill go to hell?” I certainly didn’t say any particular group of people were stupid. Really there is a limit to PC speak that I will bow to. And I don’t see any reason why I should be banned from referring to a random group of Hypothetical people who aren’t smart as “Stupid” or how it undermines God’s Creation. Frankly I can think of some worse things God called a few people in scriptures. Foolish, swine, hypocrites, heathens, evildoers… Jesus Himself used these words to describe people and He was without sin.

 

[Syele]

I’m referring to knowledge of the teaching, not understanding of the mysteries of faith which only God posesses.

All the teaching of the Catholic faith can be known. Invincible ignorance is a state in which the person has no way of knowing these teachings.

I have knowledge of many teachings from many churches. Are you saying that if jsut one of them is right then I MUST know which it is because I have heard it?

 

[cathopologist]

they are only hypothetical stupid people. I do not go around calling people stupid as a general rule. I suppose I could have said “Will people who aren’t smart all go to hell?” or “Will people who can’t understand simple concepts but aren’t mentally ill go to hell?”

“Foolish” would have been a better title for the thread, instead of “stupid”. The word means lacking intelligence. Nobody lacks intelligence, for it intelligence that keeps us alive in this world.

I don’t think you should be banned. But i feel that you should change the title of your thread to something more appropriate. There is a limit of how much insult a person can take, especially if you are poking fun of their intelligence. You don’t have to if you don’t want to, but it will reflect on yourself.

 

[Dauphin]

I have knowledge of many teachings from many churches. Are you saying that if jsut one of them is right then I MUST know which it is because I have heard it?

No. That’s the role of grace. Only by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost can one discern between truth and untruth. Divine grace will always point toward the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, so failure to enter into it is manifestly a rejection of grace. This is true even of those who haven’t rejected the Church but are only vincibly ignorant.

 

[tGette]

Also an excellent point Syele! Maybe even excellenter!
I love making up words!

I’m going to bed, God willing!

I kept editing because I made a joke about stupidity. Then my scrupulosity caused me to take it out, because I was uncertain if it was offensive or not.

May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with us!

 

[Syele]

“Foolish” would have been a better title for the thread, instead of “stupid”. The word means lacking intelligence. Nobody lacks intelligence, for it intelligence that keeps us alive in this world.

I don’t think you should be banned. But i feel that you should change the title of your thread to something more appropriate. There is a limit of how much insult a person can take, especially if you are poking fun of their intelligence. You don’t have to if you don’t want to, but it will reflect on yourself.

I’m sorry I have to disagree with you. I am in no way poking fun of anyone. Foolish is a very different word from what I mean. A Fool according to scriptures is i n much worse straights than someone who merely has significantly less intelligence than the average person.

Check out this list of what Scriptures have to say about what a fool is:

The Bible, in Psalms 14 and 53, gives 12 characteristics of a fool. Please notice:
· They say that there is no God — verse 1
· They live corrupt lives — verse 1
· They do vile things — verse 1
· They are without understanding — verse 2
· They ignore God and do not seek Him — verse 2
· They do not do good — verses 1 and 3
· They never learn due to their ignorance — verse 4
· They live in ignorance of God — verse 4
· They seek to devour God’s people — verse 4
· They never pray — verse 4
· They are eventually overcome with great fear or dread — verse 5
· They frustrate the plans of the poor — verse 5

It is my prayer that faced with being either stupid or a fool that God will grant me the gift of not being smart. At least a stupid person would have a chance of being in Gods favor, i’m afraid I cannot say the same for the fool.

 

[Syele]

Also an excellent point Syele! Maybe even excellenter!
I love making up words!

I’m going to bed, God willing!

I kept editing because I made a joke about stupidity. Then my scrupulosity caused me to take it out, because I was uncertain if it was offensive or not.

May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with us!

Sleep well tGette! It is also well past my own bedtime so in the interest of both our sleep, I will put off answering the things I`d like to discuss with you about judgment till the morning.

 

[ralphinal]

Let us take Forrest Gump as an example. Now, FOrrest was able to know right from wrong. Forrest could not grasp higher concepts, but he could function in the world. Now, Forrest gets pulled from one faith to another. What happens to him?

God knows what Forrest is able to understand. God knows the true desires of his heart. I would not worry about him

Now, the better question is: will people who mislead or prey upon stupid people have a chance of salvation? If you target an uneducated or unsophoisticated group for cult members, how damned are you?

 

[Syele]

No. That’s the role of grace. Only by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost can one discern between truth and untruth. Divine grace will always point toward the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, so failure to enter into it is manifestly a rejection of grace. This is true even of those who haven’t rejected the Church but are only vincibly ignorant.

Is Divine Grace stronger than ones intellect?

The teaching of the Church is actually very clear and consistent. Most of the people on these forums who call themselves Catholic are not truly Catholic, since they reject the Catholic teaching on salvation. This is a product of the crisis of belief which occured following the Second Vatican Council. Following the council, people developed the mistaken impression that the faith had changed and a Catholic could now believe that there is salvation outside the Church. In reality, the Council did not change the Catholic teaching on salvation, since no Council of the Church has the authority to change truths laid down by God.

Those “Catholics” who insist that there is salvation outside the Church are not bothered by infallible papal declarations which say the exact opposite, because they are members of a new religion which was created by modernists after the council. This religion has no doctrine - only feelings.

There’s no doubt in my mind that these people deny the Catholic doctrine out of good motivations. They think it’s “mean” to say that there’s no salvation outside the Church, so they tell Protestants there is. Unfortunately, telling untruths about salvation is the exact opposite of charity. A truly charitable Catholic will inform protestants about the Catholic teaching on salvation, out a true desire that they will be saved.

Frankly, these people who disagree with you have some pretty convincing arguments, they also have quotes backing them same as you do. SO an outsider like me, the Catholic Church looks very divided. Can you explain that? Why all the contradicting statements when The Catholic church supposedly cant contradict itself?

I wanted to leave a good detailed post, but it is getting too late (or early now, I guess) and I do not want to be bumbling my words.

In short, as I said before, we have no right to judge.
Even if someone broke every commandment, denied the Holy Spirit devoutely, and died blowing up a church; we still have no right to claim they are going to Hell.

Our Father is just. He knows each person’s situation and knows their worthiness of Heaven.
(This is my cop-out answer because I am too lazy to give a detailed response. By God’s grace I will do that tomorrow, I guess later today now at this time.)

I might go to hell for being up this late, I do know that. ;o)

I agree that we should not be judging individuals eternal destiny, A also agree that Our Father is just and knows our hearts. Those things are pretty Protestant sounding answers However, I know of nothing in scriptures that says we should not Judge in generalities. In fact I know of a few passages that give tips on how to tell Gods People from those who are not. Why have tips if its forbidden? Really, being able to judge rightly on who is a Follower of God is discernment and needed in order to make wise choices. Speculation on weather people can be kept from Heaven cause they don’t understand/arent sure about what is told to them is fair enough game. Jesus even spoke in parables to people and only explained to a few.

 

[swariffin]

I see alot of stuff around here about how those outside the Catholic Church will all go to hell. Some argue well those who never heard of the Catholic Church wont, other argue yes they will. ugh. I even see quotes from the CCC and popes that appear to conflict (Yeah yeah I know only the smart people can see they don’t REALLY Conflict )

So say you have a person who isn’t all that smart, he hears of several different churches. Wants to do right but doesn’t know which is right. He never swims the Tiber. He just does his best to to what he thinks God wants. Now I can see condemning to hell people who KNOW what the truth is and rejects it, but what if he just isn’t sure? Hell or no? Please explain why you answer how you do.

Dear brother,

Please read the story of St. Joseph from Cupertino. He was a man with below average IQ, and yet made his way to sainthood.

 

[coyotekate77]

I see it this way (speaking as a Catholic):

God is infinitely just and infinitely merciful. He (of all) knows each person absolutely intimately and perfectly. He would ‘know’ that His child (call him “Robert”) is a slow thinker, who finds it difficult to grasp concepts, who is easily swayed, etc.

We do believe that God will give us ‘sufficient grace’ by which we are saved. Now, that grace might have to be ‘stronger’ or more ‘constant’ for Robert than it might be for one of us. . .but whatever, it will be sufficient. Robert will not be ‘condemned’ unknowingly; neither will he be absolutely ‘coerced’ by another into error, with never a chance to know ‘the truth’. We don’t know how or when, but there will be a point for Robert, before his death, in which Robert, no matter how ‘slow’ his thought may be, will understand God’s truth and either accept it or reject it. Once he has done this initially, he will either continue to accept or he may at any point reject it, repent and accept, reject, etc. The point of this is, of course, that at some point he will have had the ‘sufficient knowledge for salvation’ which he can freely accept or reject at any time, for any period of time, until death. He may only come to this ‘knowledge’ at the point of death and make that choice–accept or reject–just the one time–but he will not make the choice blindly.

I would not worry about a person being ‘too stupid for heaven’. . .God as I said not only wills that all be saved (meaning, we will all get a ‘chance’ to accept–or reject–His will), He is both just and merciful. His creations may not look ‘perfect’ to us–the man born ‘retarded’, the woman born with deformities of body, etc.–but the souls He creates are equal in dignity and will be given equality of opportunity when it comes to the choice of salvation.

 

[Syele]

Dear (sister, )

Please read the story of St. Joseph from Cupertino. He was a man with below average IQ, and yet made his way to sainthood.

But he was born into a Catholic Family wasn’t he? He was certainly Catholic as young as 8 years old. A person with low intelligence following the religion taught to them by their own family is not the same as one who must choose to leave that which they were taught by parents. How would a Dunce (since people seem to take offense at the word stupid) choose wisely? Aren’t they at the mercy of their teachers?

 

[Syele]

I see it this way (speaking as a Catholic):

God is infinitely just and infinitely merciful. He (of all) knows each person absolutely intimately and perfectly. He would ‘know’ that His child (call him “Robert”) is a slow thinker, who finds it difficult to grasp concepts, who is easily swayed, etc.

We do believe that God will give us ‘sufficient grace’ by which we are saved. Now, that grace might have to be ‘stronger’ or more ‘constant’ for Robert than it might be for one of us. . .but whatever, it will be sufficient. Robert will not be ‘condemned’ unknowingly; neither will he be absolutely ‘coerced’ by another into error, with never a chance to know ‘the truth’. We don’t know how or when, but there will be a point for Robert, before his death, in which Robert, no matter how ‘slow’ his thought may be, will understand God’s truth and either accept it or reject it. Once he has done this initially, he will either continue to accept or he may at any point reject it, repent and accept, reject, etc. The point of this is, of course, that at some point he will have had the ‘sufficient knowledge for salvation’ which he can freely accept or reject at any time, for any period of time, until death. He may only come to this ‘knowledge’ at the point of death and make that choice–accept or reject–just the one time–but he will not make the choice blindly.

I would not worry about a person being ‘too stupid for heaven’. . .God as I said not only wills that all be saved (meaning, we will all get a ‘chance’ to accept–or reject–His will), He is both just and merciful. His creations may not look ‘perfect’ to us–the man born ‘retarded’, the woman born with deformities of body, etc.–but the souls He creates are equal in dignity and will be given equality of opportunity when it comes to the choice of salvation.

Thanks, I think you understood my question better than some. I don’t in any way think some people are too stupid for heaven. My question comes when I see combined Gods Judgment according to our capabilities with statements like “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church” There are a huge number of people I would venture to guess who have a very strong faith in God, Whownat to please Him in all they do and think. Who study their Scriptures daily, Pray unceasingly, repent of all their sins and yet are not Catholic. What can account for that if there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church? These people who obviously WANT to choose God will be judged as having rejected God by rejecting His Church? Where is this Divine Grace for those people?

St. Joseph from Cupertino was a Dunce. according to literature, he was unable to pass any tests. if he had been born into some other religion but sought God equally and could not understand how to convert, would God have then condemned him? I don’t think He would. The idea that God judges on earthly Church membership more so than the true state of ones heart is baffling to me.

Person A: Born into the Catholic Church, Followed main rituals, but never really learned the faith, rarely goes to Confession or Mass as an adult, Can’t answer simple Questions about his faith.
Person B: Born in a non-Catholic Christian family, Chose to be Baptized ebcause he knew God wanted it of him, strives to to all he believes God wants of him, Prays very often, Loves God more than anything or anyone he knows.

I can look at these two people and then consider words spoken here on these forums often:

So Catholics believe you can go to heaven but it may be harder to attain salvation because you lack the sacraments

Person B has a small chance of making it to heave cause they lack the “playbook.” I’d Say a Stupid person would Lack knowledge of the sacraments if they are not born Catholic. Furthur explanations of such would probably be daunting to comprehend.

Those “Catholics” who insist that there is salvation outside the Church are not bothered by infallible papal declarations which say the exact opposite, because they are members of a new religion which was created by modernists after the council. This religion has no doctrine - only feelings.

by this one not only is the Stupid person at a disadvantage, they have little hope at all short of God or an Angel etc Physically appearing to them and making it abundantly clear. I see an enormous population of people not in the Catholic Church. Many who desire to please God. Why does God not divinely give them adequate Grace to see that Church membership is more important than the way they live and Desire to please God? Is it your contention that God DID Do this and all non-members of the Catholic Church were given adequate knowledge of it and have(Or will before they die) knowingly rejected it?

 

[Dauphin]

Is Divine Grace stronger than ones intellect?

No. It won’t compel a person. It will only point them to the truth.

Frankly, these people who disagree with you have some pretty convincing arguments, they also have quotes backing them same as you do. SO an outsider like me, the Catholic Church looks very divided. Can you explain that? Why all the contradicting statements when The Catholic church supposedly cant contradict itself?

If you think that any contradiction exists between the Papal bulls of the middle ages and the teaching of the current catechism, then you’re simply misinterpreting them. Often, people will misconstrue invincible ignorance as saying that the vincibly ignorant can be saved if they do not come to the Catholic faith, and quote the current Catechism in supposed support of this erroneous belief. They fail to understand that invincible ignorance refers only to those whose ignorance cannot be overcome.

I urge you to study the teaching yourself. A careful, honest, study will reveal no contradictions. In the end, the Church cannot differ from its infallible definitions, which very clearly state that there is one Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved,

 

[water]

I even see quotes from the CCC and popes that appear to conflict (Yeah yeah I know only the smart people can see they don’t REALLY Conflict )

I’d like to see those quotes from CCC and the Popes please.

Thanks.

 

[Aramis]

I see alot of stuff around here about how those outside the Catholic Church will all go to hell. Some argue well those who never heard of the Catholic Church wont, other argue yes they will. ugh.

I’m certain some stupid people will find heaven, and some hell.
Just like some brilliant people will find their way to each.

No one knows for sure who will be which.

 

[prodigal-sun]

Frankly, I find the question very intriguing because unlike JWs who seem to uniformly agree that my chances of going to heaven are about 0(probably less), the Catholics seem confused about the matter. I was just reading another thread on this very forum filled with debate over it. Protestants are heretics and going to hell not purgatory, no they aren’t, yes they are… both sides are throwing out Scripture, CCC quotes and Papal declarations. Yes, I have seen it explained how you did too.

Then I cant help but think of various threads from the past with Catholics trying to convince me that The Catholic Church holds the fullness of Truth. That She never contradicts herself. And I have no choice but to think… this topic is really not so complicated, how to get to heaven should be a basic theology not a huge thing that is really hard to get. After all the JWs seem pretty unified on the topic. I don’t get why its so complicated and there is no consensus if it doesn’t contradict and there is fullness of truth?

And as for the Judging thing, don’t take it overboard… there is a difference between judging what is sound Christian truth and judging an individuals heart. Even when talking about who goes to hell. Hell is not a vague concept in Scripture that is supposed to be a mystery to us. there are some specific things we know about it. If its impossible to know how people end up there then we are all in big trouble.

Can you please show a thread in which a Catholic told someone specifically they are going to hell and I will show you a sinner. Just by looking at this thread so far I can see that you been given some good information. If there are people on here saying specically another person is going to go to hell it may be a good idea to point it out to the mods as I believe it is against forum rules (or should be in any case).