Catholics: Will stupid people go to hell?

[Syele]

I’d like to see those quotes from CCC and the Popes please.

Thanks.

Hi Water,

here are a few. ITs mainly the CCC that appears to conflict with the Popes.

CCC, paragraphs 817-819

paragraph 818:

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

There is also :

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578-590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be for them that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. If slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604)
“Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”

Sorry, I don’t buy that those popes meant that the Catholic Church was not the actual institution of The Catholic Church headed by the Pope and instead a body of all Christians perfectly and imperfectly joined. I don’t see any way the CCC can agree with those papal quotes without that being the case. I nave never heard a Catholic agree with the idea of the invisible Church. That is a Protestant teaching.

 

[prodigal-sun]

The teaching of the Church is actually very clear and consistent. Most of the people on these forums who call themselves Catholic are not truly Catholic, since they reject the Catholic teaching on salvation. This is a product of the crisis of belief which occured following the Second Vatican Council. Following the council, people developed the mistaken impression that the faith had changed and a Catholic could now believe that there is salvation outside the Church. In reality, the Council did not change the Catholic teaching on salvation, since no Council of the Church has the authority to change truths laid down by God.

Those “Catholics” who insist that there is salvation outside the Church are not bothered by infallible papal declarations which say the exact opposite, because they are members of a new religion which was created by modernists after the council. This religion has no doctrine - only feelings.

There’s no doubt in my mind that these people deny the Catholic doctrine out of good motivations. They think it’s “mean” to say that there’s no salvation outside the Church, so they tell Protestants there is. Unfortunately, telling untruths about salvation is the exact opposite of charity. A truly charitable Catholic will inform protestants about the Catholic teaching on salvation, out a true desire that they will be saved.

Doesn’t this post fly in the face of what JPII has told us about how people outside the church are still apart of the church. That it is still through the church we are all saved but that it is possible for non-catholics to be saved… hmmm, very interesting.

Peace

 

[prodigal-sun]

Hi Water,

here are a few. ITs mainly the CCC that appears to conflict with the Popes.

CCC, paragraphs 817-819

paragraph 818:

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

There is also :

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578-590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be for them that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. If slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604)
“Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”

Sorry, I don’t buy that those popes meant that the Catholic Church was not the actual institution of The Catholic Church headed by the Pope and instead a body of all Christians perfectly and imperfectly joined. I don’t see any way the CCC can agree with those papal quotes without that being the case. I nave never heard a Catholic agree with the idea of the invisible Church. That is a Protestant teaching.

So there is one of two things that may be at play here. The first (your view) is that the church is contradicting herself.

The second (the churches view) that everyone is saved through the Catholic church. Everyone in heaven is part of the church. As are our fellow christian brothers part of the church but seperated from us.

 

[blossom02]

Hi Water,

here are a few. ITs mainly the CCC that appears to conflict with the Popes.

CCC, paragraphs 817-819

paragraph 818:

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

There is also :

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578-590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be for them that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. If slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604)
“Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”

Sorry, I don’t buy that those popes meant that the Catholic Church was not the actual institution of The Catholic Church headed by the Pope and instead a body of all Christians perfectly and imperfectly joined. I don’t see any way the CCC can agree with those papal quotes without that being the case. I nave never heard a Catholic agree with the idea of the invisible Church. That is a Protestant teaching.

This is saying in short: that anyone thats knows what the Catholic Church holds for them cannot leave it. Someone that doesn’t have the knowledge, intellegence or the ability to know all these things isn’t going to be in the same situaltion with our Lord as someone that is given these things.

For whom more is given more is expected.

The Church has never judged anyone to hell althought some of her members seem to think they can.

These words in the ccc are not conflicting just are talking of 2 different peoples types of understanding. One with all the knowledge and the other ignorant of the church.

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

I see alot of stuff around here about how those outside the Catholic Church will all go to hell. Some argue well those who never heard of the Catholic Church wont, other argue yes they will. ugh. I even see quotes from the CCC and popes that appear to conflict (Yeah yeah I know only the smart people can see they don’t REALLY Conflict )

So say you have a person who isn’t all that smart, he hears of several different churches. Wants to do right but doesn’t know which is right. He never swims the Tiber. He just does his best to to what he thinks God wants. Now I can see condemning to hell people who KNOW what the truth is and rejects it, but what if he just isn’t sure? Hell or no? Please explain why you answer how you do.

The Catholic Church does not say who does and does not go to hell. Death is a Mystery - something about which we cannot know everything. Contemplate it, meditate on it, and all that good stuff, but don’t ever make the mistake of believing you know it all.

What the Catholic Church teaches is common sense - if you know something to be truth, and you deny truth out of your own egoism, you separate yourself from God. To deny truth is to deny God. It’s that simple.

 

[swariffin]

But he was born into a Catholic Family wasn’t he? He was certainly Catholic as young as 8 years old. A person with low intelligence following the religion taught to them by their own family is not the same as one who must choose to leave that which they were taught by parents. How would a Dunce (since people seem to take offense at the word stupid) choose wisely? Aren’t they at the mercy of their teachers?

Dear Syele

Sorry, Sister. Your nickname is foreign to me, and I can’t distinguish it between male and female. BTW, you are correct. St. Joseph from Cupertino was from a Catholic family since he was an Italian. But still, as a low intelligence person does not mean that he could not make his own decision. The way that St. Joseph stayed in her priesthood education despite failing the exams many times, and the way he answered the call of Jesus showed that he choosed his way by himself. Also, the way that even a bishop would like to hear his advices showed that the Holy Spirit worked within him. Finally, it is St. Joseph himself allowed the Holy Spirit to use him, correct?

 

[jmcrae]

I see alot of stuff around here about how those outside the Catholic Church will all go to hell. Some argue well those who never heard of the Catholic Church wont, other argue yes they will. ugh. I even see quotes from the CCC and popes that appear to conflict (Yeah yeah I know only the smart people can see they don’t REALLY Conflict )

So say you have a person who isn’t all that smart, he hears of several different churches. Wants to do right but doesn’t know which is right. He never swims the Tiber. He just does his best to to what he thinks God wants. Now I can see condemning to hell people who KNOW what the truth is and rejects it, but what if he just isn’t sure? Hell or no? Please explain why you answer how you do.

I think that if he knows enough to be worried about it, then he needs to become a Catholic - because at that point, his ignorance is no longer “invincible”.

On the other hand, if any religion will do, then why not Catholic? Either way, he wins.

 

[Syele]

Dear Syele

Sorry, Sister. Your nickname is foreign to me, and I can’t distinguish it between male and female.

No worries, I was trying to correct with making a big deal of it. I put my pic in my profile to try and help with the figuring it out.

BTW, you are correct. St. Joseph from Cupertino was from a Catholic family since he was an Italian. But still, as a low intelligence person does not mean that he could not make his own decision. The way that St. Joseph stayed in her priesthood education despite failing the exams many times, and the way he answered the call of Jesus showed that he choosed his way by himself. Also, the way that even a bishop would like to hear his advices showed that the Holy Spirit worked within him. Finally, it is St. Joseph himself allowed the Holy Spirit to use him, correct?

My point was not at all to say anything bad about St. Joseph, I definitely believe God worked through him and his life. and even a not bright person can choose to allow that. However I think that people especially less intellectual people usually will not venture out of the religion they were taught as a child unless there is some huge extraordinary thing happening to them. Most people trust what their parents teach them until they reach an age of rebellion and even then they later tend to migrate back to what they were taught at a very young age. My question was pondering this tendency. People who do not enjoy and/or are simply very bad at studying and pondering the details of what each religion teaches and why may never see anything wrong with what they were taught to even think about changing it.

I don’t think of myself as a stupid person, but I See many things that seem very wrong about what the Catholic church teaches. What do I favor? That which was taught to me as a young Child. There is no merit in rejecting something just because my parents taught it, nor in accepting it because its different from what Ive known. There is much more to it than that.

I think that if he knows enough to be worried about it, then he needs to become a Catholic - because at that point, his ignorance is no longer “invincible”.

On the other hand, if any religion will do, then why not Catholic? Either way, he wins.

It does not follow that just because a person is concerned about one doctrine (ie there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church) that any religion will do.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I see alot of stuff around here about how those outside the Catholic Church will all go to hell. Some argue well those who never heard of the Catholic Church wont, other argue yes they will. ugh. I even see quotes from the CCC and popes that appear to conflict (Yeah yeah I know only the smart people can see they don’t REALLY Conflict )

So say you have a person who isn’t all that smart, he hears of several different churches. Wants to do right but doesn’t know which is right. He never swims the Tiber. He just does his best to to what he thinks God wants. Now I can see condemning to hell people who KNOW what the truth is and rejects it, but what if he just isn’t sure? Hell or no? Please explain why you answer how you do.

I don’t know about people who have heard Catholic teachings and still reject them but I do know one thing for certain, that guy who cut me off on the freeway this morning while talking on his cellphone is gonna burn.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[swariffin]

I don’t think of myself as a stupid person, but I See many things that seem very wrong about what the Catholic church teaches. What do I favor? That which was taught to me as a young Child. There is no merit in rejecting something just because my parents taught it, nor in accepting it because its different from what Ive known. There is much more to it than that.

Dear Sister,

Off course, sis, you are correct. I don’t believe that there is a person who is “stupid” anyway. “Stupidity” is a terminology judged by a person to another. The object who is called “stupid” may turn out to be “smart”. For example, Thomas Alfa Edison was considered as a child with learning disability when he was young. But, with love, Tom became the inventor of light bulb, and the founder of General Electric, I believe. I believe someone who is called as “stupid” by others, may have something potential that which “stupid person” may not realized. It is somehow like “using” the talent given by God, rather than burying it under the ground as mentioned in Mat 25:18.

I myself was a cradle Catholic since my childhood baptism. Not knowing what the heck it meant when the priest pour water to my forehead 3 times, but rather just following my mom who was baptised at the same time. I spent sometimes with Jehovah Witnesses, and begin to dig the bible. It was the JW who introduced me to the bible. With the JW teaching, a lot of Catholicism I found to be “wrong”. The older I am, the more intriguing I became about the “wrongness” of Catholicism. So, into more detail and a little bit more “scientific/logic” I dig. The more I dig, the more i found, and the more I understand. It is to the point, that I could see more logic and reason on Catholicism than JW theology. Somebody took may be a month or so to understand. It took me more than 10 years to grab the meaning of Catholicism to me. Still, there are more for me to find out. Somebody told me that Catholicism is soo difficult to understand that a bright person such as St. Thomas Aquinas had difficulties to comprehend, but it was so easy that a low IQ person such as St. Joseph from Cupertino could understand. With the open heart to the Holy Spirit who will guide our mind, can we understand the love of God that was meant to be (Mat 11:25).

God bless you, sister.

 

[Syele]

just remember the “stupid” person was purely hypothetical, and mainly for lack of a better term. As I explained before foolish would have meant something different (and IMO worse!), We are all more stupid than some and much smarter than others. God did not make everyone the same. I’m not saying “stupid” to poke fun at others. but we must have a word for the low levels of intelligence. I also did not mean “people with less intelligence than me or less than Forest Gump” or whatever. I honestly didn’t think so many people would get offended at the idea that some people are smarter than others! I can think of many people that are smarter than I am and some that are not as smart as me. God made us that way for His own reasons and noticing it is not some horrid sin.

 

[Ruthie]

Personally, I have a high IQ but can still be stupid about things. And foolish, too!

The bone of contention here seems to be the statement, “No salvation outside the Church.” Here’s what the CCC has to say about it.

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

** 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
I wouldn’t say it’s crystal clear - especially when I’m so sleepy - but I would say that the phrase “do not know the Gospel of Christ **or **his Church” leaves it open for non-Catholic Christians. (This is borne out by CCC 818 & 819, as an earlier poster mentioned.)

If they are invincibly convinced that the Church mentioned in the Gospels is “invisible” or otherwise includes their denomination and/or excludes Catholics, “but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

Ruthie

 

[kalt]

I see alot of stuff around here about how those outside the Catholic Church will all go to hell. Some argue well those who never heard of the Catholic Church wont, other argue yes they will. ugh. I even see quotes from the CCC and popes that appear to conflict (Yeah yeah I know only the smart people can see they don’t REALLY Conflict )

So say you have a person who isn’t all that smart, he hears of several different churches. Wants to do right but doesn’t know which is right. He never swims the Tiber. He just does his best to to what he thinks God wants. Now I can see condemning to hell people who KNOW what the truth is and rejects it, but what if he just isn’t sure? Hell or no? Please explain why you answer how you do.

The Catholic Church doesn’t claim to know which individuals–Catholic, Protestant, or non-Christian–will go to Heaven.

The Catholics here who make cruel comments, condemning others to Hell, may well find that they have something to answer to at the pearly gates.

I imagine the astonished looks on their faces when they stutter, trying to explain that they were just doing His work.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t know about people who have heard Catholic teachings and still reject them but I do know one thing for certain, that guy who cut me off on the freeway this morning while talking on his cellphone is gonna burn.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[jmcrae]

It does not follow that just because a person is concerned about one doctrine (ie there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church) that any religion will do.

Is there a specific Protestant religion that you believe is the rightful heir to the Apostles? (And if so - which one, and how so?)

 

[Syele]

Is there a specific Protestant religion that you believe is the rightful heir to the Apostles? (And if so - which one, and how so?)

Firstly, Protestants are part of the Christian religion, same as Catholics. I will assume you meant Protestant Denominations and I will grant you there are too many.

But no, there is no denomination that is specifically the rightful heir to the Apostles.

Scripture is full of examples, from the very beginning, of people who were God’s chosen going astray and later returning to Him. The isrealites wandered for 40 years and not all saw the promised land. Gods people are always 'wandering. or straying off. That didn’t mean the Gates of Hell prevailed against Gods Church when Moses was in the desert and they havent now. Us silly Humans are just easily confused.

No one gets a rightful place in heaven cause they are a member of the “right church”. The Apostles do not have heirs so much as God does, God adopts us into His family. People can list all sorts of requirements to get adopted into that family, but what they all boil down to is that you have to drop what you have and go with Him. Each of the Apostles left their lives behind to follow Jesus, we have to do the same if we want to follow in their footsteps.

 

[tGette]

I have not posted here for a while because the discussions have become kind of slightly off topic.

I will say this:

I believe God is going to judge us justly (oh, wait, I’ve said that before):
He is going to understand we were all torn between the many denominations of Christianity and each one giving arguments for truth making it difficult to recognize the one that is absolutely true. If said person is still living a righteous life (or at least trying to) God is going to judge them based on that. As for what that person must go through before being able to enter Heaven I have not clue. I do know that no sin can enter Heaven so when one dies if they are holding on to any type of behavior unworth of Heaven, they will need to be purged of that (Purgatory). It would be taking away someone’s free will to rewire them after death to automatically make them fit for Heaven.

Again, the Catholic Church has the necessary and normative means for getting into Heaven. So, a Catholic who adheres to all the beliefs and frequents the Sacraments, etc. is going to get into Heaven (most likely still with some stay in Purgatory) This still does not mean that a Catholic will get into Heaven sooner than a Protestant if say they were to die at the same time. If a Catholic truly is in the Church because they know it to be true, they are held even more accountable for what they do. Though, a Protestant will be held accountable because they should believe a Christian life is based on merit as well as faith.

If there is someone so removed intellectually (ie. an autistic person) that they do not understand the concept of sin, then God is going to judge them accordingly.

Bottom line:
There is an almost infinite combination of possibilites of circumstances that only God truly can make such decisions on people’s eternity.

 

[tGette]

Another example:
Say someone died as a Mormon or a Jehovah’s Witness.
God will justly judge them knowing that they (in seemingly most cases) were deceived to belief their faith was true. They still had a faith in Christ Jesus and a lot of them do genuinely try to follow Christ as the example for their life. So…God is going to judge based on this. Even though they might not be able to be blamed for being deceived into their faith as being true, they will still not be able to enter Heaven believing that Christ was merely a man (Jehovah’s Witnesses) or one of many god-men/brother of the devil (Mormons). This is, again, where Purgatory comes into play. Though in their hearts they are where God needs them to be, they can not enter into Heaven until they know Jesus Christ is Lord and God!

I am not going to attempt to explain the myster of Purgatory. I do not know what occurs there, if it is actually a physical place, how people are purged of sin, etc. I just know (by faith and reason) that Purgatory is real and it is a real example of God’s continuing mercy, even after our death here on earth.

 

[jmcrae]

Firstly, Protestants are part of the Christian religion, same as Catholics.

They are split off from the Church that Christ founded, which is the Catholic church. They don’t have the same beliefs or practices as the Catholic church, nor as each other, which would seem to make them different religions.

By saying that they are “part of” the same religion makes it seem like they are branch offices that were created by God’s design - they’re not.

But no, there is no denomination that is specifically the rightful heir to the Apostles.

Do you not think that we ought to be following the rightful heirs of the Apostles, then?

Scripture is full of examples, from the very beginning, of people who were God’s chosen going astray and later returning to Him. The isrealites wandered for 40 years and not all saw the promised land. Gods people are always 'wandering. or straying off.

Those who wandered off did not (by definition) remain with Israel. Only those who remained with Israel made it to the Promised Land. The fact that not all who remained made it does not take away from the fact that 100% of those who made it were people who had remained with Israel, and had not wandered off.

No one gets a rightful place in heaven cause they are a member of the “right church”.

It is the Church that is going to Heaven - not individuals - except insofar as individuals are in the Church, and persevering in its teachings. The Church is the Ark of Salvation, and just like Noah’s Ark, jumping out of it in the middle of the storm just because you don’t like how it tosses and turns, is a really bad idea.

 

[Syele]

So your response is that Protestants are not Christians? No I am not going to follow people just because they claim to be following the heirs to the Apostles. I will follow Jesus directly, thanks.