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Mannyfit75
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Protestants are Christians since they are baptized in the Trinitarian formula. Read the Catechism for once.
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Syele
Guest
Good grief Manny I have read the Catechism! I was responding to jmcre who just said Protestants are not he same religion as Catholics. What religion he thinks we are I don’t know.
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jmcrae
Guest
Anglican, Presbyterian, Mennonite, Campbellite - only they and God know for sure. Yes, you are in partial communion with the church through Baptism, but you don’t have the same beliefs or practices that we do, or that each other do, either.
A religion is a set of beliefs and practices.
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Syele
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I was assuming your line of questioning had something to do with my original question, does it?
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jmcrae
Guest
To rephrase my original question:
In what sense do you believe yourself to be observing the same religion, and belonging to the same community, that Jesus Christ gave to the Apostles?
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sarahpackars
Guest
he will go to heaven. no doubts in my mind. Jesus died to give salvation to all. no exeptions, especially if the person is trying their best to do the right thing, as long as they have a truly honest attempt at what’s right, if they lead a healthy life, in or out of god’s love, then yes, they will go to heaven, after purgatory of course. 
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mark_a
Guest
My personal, fallible opinion is that stupid people stand less of a chance of going to hell.I see alot of stuff around here about how those outside the Catholic Church will all go to hell. Some argue well those who never heard of the Catholic Church wont, other argue yes they will. ugh. I even see quotes from the CCC and popes that appear to conflict (Yeah yeah I know only the smart people can see they don’t REALLY Conflict
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So say you have a person who isn’t all that smart, he hears of several different churches. Wants to do right but doesn’t know which is right. He never swims the Tiber. He just does his best to to what he thinks God wants. Now I can see condemning to hell people who KNOW what the truth is and rejects it, but what if he just isn’t sure? Hell or no? Please explain why you answer how you do.
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Jonathan_Cid
Guest
By the way, regarding “invincible ignorance”, how does one (such as Dauphin ) determine whether or not someone is invincibly ignorant? The real question then should be, how many are invincibly ignorant, and how many are not. From there one could start estimating and determining how many would go to hell, counting up those who are “vincibly ignorant” (as Dauphin puts it) and refuse the Church. Even if you went through all this logical dilemma, you would still be faced with the word ignorant - “not knowing”. A person who does not “know”, is condemnable, according to such doctrine. So (by Dauphin’s standards), yes, stupid people will go to hell.
But, alas: “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do…”
) determine whether or not someone is invincibly ignorant? The real question then should be, how many are invincibly ignorant, and how many are not. From there one could start estimating and determining how many would go to hell, counting up those who are “vincibly ignorant” (as Dauphin puts it) and refuse the Church. Even if you went through all this logical dilemma, you would still be faced with the word ignorant - “not knowing”. A person who does not “know”, is condemnable, according to such doctrine. So (by Dauphin’s standards), yes, stupid people will go to hell.But, alas: “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do…”
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Syele
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I believe in all that is written in the Holy Scriptures, believe in the Trinity, was baptized, I repent of my sins (I certainly am not perfect) and do all I can to obey all commands of God. I have and am willing to again give up all I have to do anything God requires of me. Jesus went to the Apostles and said “Follow Me” and they simply got up and did so. They did not understand all that was ahead of them. They did not understand all God was doing or even all He had done so far, They didn’t understand lots of things even when Jesus Himself told them but they followed anyhow. That is what Faith is, not just “yea I believe” but action. Am I willing to just get up and follow Jesus? Yes. That was the faith the Apostles showed, and God used that in their lives. That is the Church I’m a part of. I really don’t care what its name is, just who is leading it - Jesus.
I have been presented with an amazing list of things one must accept and believe to be a real Catholic. What was good enough for Matthew and John and Peter to follow God, I’m told is not enough for me! no, I must believe Catholics do communion correctly, and they have apostolic succession and they never contradict themselves, Mary was ascended in to heaven, and many people were sinless, and a myriad of other things. The Disciples didn’t need a year of classes to become Jesus followers, they just had to go. You think that choice of theirs was easy? It wasn’t. Some were asked and did not go. Those others had other priorities besides what Jesus had for them.
So I ask you again, Obviously life changing, faith, the kind that moves mountians and takes over your entire life, the kind that devotes every fiber of ones being isn’t enough to go to heaven according to the many many threads here on how Faith alone is stupid.
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jmcrae
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They had three years (at least - St. Ignatius of Antioch seems to indicate longer than that - perhaps up to 12 years) of training in Christ’s ways. They weren’t just yelling Hallelujah the whole time they were following Jesus - He was teaching them Doctrine and Sacraments, and all the other stuff that we learn in Catechism classes.
The decision to follow Jesus isn’t the end of the road; it’s only the beginning. It’s also not just a “me and Jesus” thing - when the disciples joined up with Jesus, they also had to put up with Judas - they couldn’t just have a one-on-one thing with Him all by themselves, or separate from the other disciples.
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Syele
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Who said it was the end of the road?
Who said anything about a “me and Jesus thing?”
Who said something about yelling halleujah all the time?
I study daily. In a church Congregation. Jesus accepts people where they are and allows them to grow from then on.
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jmcrae
Guest
That’s good.
That came from where? Was it personally established by Jesus while He was walking the earth? That’s what I’m trying to get at - where does the authority of your authority come from?
Into His own Church. Yes. Jesus doesn’t accept people into someone else’s church - He has no right or authority to do so, since He is not their founder - He can only accept people into His own Church.
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Syele
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No one has been able to prove to me that the Catholic Church IS “the Church Jesus founded” I get “Cause the Church said so” plus some very vague biblical references. :shrug:Even so its pretty off topic.That’s good.
That came from where? Was it personally established by Jesus while He was walking the earth? That’s what I’m trying to get at - where does the authority of your authority come from?
Into His own Church. Yes. Jesus doesn’t accept people into someone else’s church - He has no right or authority to do so, since He is not their founder - He can only accept people into His own Church.
(John 1:12; 3:16,18,36; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9-10,13; Ephesians 2:8-9)
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jmcrae
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This pretty much blew my mind. That, combined with seeing what the Protestants at St. Andrew’s did to the statues of the Apostles - they made it pretty obviously clear that they knew themselves to be inventing a new religion, and intentionally were smashing up the symbols of the religion of Christ and the Apostles.
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KristoFik
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Only God has the authority to judge. All we can do is to set an example by living an upright life and love other people-ALL other people.
Isn’t that what Jesus would do?
Isn’t that what Jesus would do?
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Ghoti
Guest
The Church has not said – and will not say – that anyone is in, or is going to, hell. They will affirm that so-and-so is in heaven (canonization), but not the other.
Regardless of the doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam Nulli Salus – even taken to the Feeneyite limit – we do not know that any of the billions of those who came before us are in hell – regardless of their belief, religions, sins, etc.
We do not know what happens at the point of death – what measures the Lord may take, in His infinite wisdom, in combinations with His infinite love, infinite justice, and infinite mercy. We do not have the right to put limits on God’s authority to save or condemn, as He sees fit.
Remember, we’re talking about a God who became flesh, and offered Himself up as a perfect sacrifice. Is there any sin that is not nullified – not once, but seventy times seven times – by the offering of Our God as scapegoat? So with this infinite supply of Redemption, shall not God do as He pleases when you or I or anyone else stands before Him?
When it comes to believers and non-believers, there are two parables I like (I can’t remember chapter and verse, but I’ll give you the Reader’s Digest version):
Regardless of the doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam Nulli Salus – even taken to the Feeneyite limit – we do not know that any of the billions of those who came before us are in hell – regardless of their belief, religions, sins, etc.
We do not know what happens at the point of death – what measures the Lord may take, in His infinite wisdom, in combinations with His infinite love, infinite justice, and infinite mercy. We do not have the right to put limits on God’s authority to save or condemn, as He sees fit.
Remember, we’re talking about a God who became flesh, and offered Himself up as a perfect sacrifice. Is there any sin that is not nullified – not once, but seventy times seven times – by the offering of Our God as scapegoat? So with this infinite supply of Redemption, shall not God do as He pleases when you or I or anyone else stands before Him?
When it comes to believers and non-believers, there are two parables I like (I can’t remember chapter and verse, but I’ll give you the Reader’s Digest version):
]A landowner asks his two sons to go work in the fields. The first says, “Sure, Pop! Love to!”, but buzzes of to the camel races. The second son says, "**** that! I’m off to have some fun!" but goes out and works in the fields anyways. So which son is doing the will of the father? The one who says “Yes, Yes”, but does the opposite, or the one who says, “No, No”, yet does what is demanded?
]At the Judgement, Jesus is there with the sheep and the goats. And the goats see Jesus and look at the sheep and go “Pwned! Epic fail!” and the sheep go "Aw, crp. We’re busted." Jesus says to the sheep, “Go through the pearly gates! Because when I was thirsty, you gave Me to drink…etc”, to which they answered, surprised, “Umm…since when?” And He replied, “Whenever you did so to the least of My brothers…” And He turns to the goats and says, “OK! The Roti Shop for you! I was thirsty, you never gave me a drink, etc…” And they go, “Hey, whoa! Did too!” And He replies, “No, you didn’t, because when you refused the least of My brothers, you refused Me.”
In the first scenario, imagine the first son to be (someone who claims to be) a Catholic, but who does not do the will of God. Imagine the second son to be, say, an atheist: he hears the word of God, but ignores it (or thinks he does, anyway). Yet he goes out and does the will of God in his actions, because he believes them to be right. How do we know that God is not slowly calling him, through his heart? Perhaps the atheist is not turned away from the Faith by God, but by God’s followers.
In the second scenario, it’s pretty much the same. The goats are believers who did not do as Christ demanded; the second were unbelievers who thought they hadn’t, but actually had.
Now, I believe in EENS, that no salvation is possible except under the umbrella of the Church"…but I also leave it up to God who makes the final decision at the end of our lives, how wide He spreads that umbrella.
As Catholics, we want all people to partake of the fullness of truth that subsists within the Church that Jesus founded almost 2000 years ago. But once you’re dead, you are commended to the mercy of God – and we hope that we, as Christians, have done everything we can to help you on your journey, and not to have caused you to stumble (or else one should get fitted for a millstone scapular).
I’m not sure if I have made my point, or made a total bollix of it. I’m sure someone will let me know.
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KristoFik
Guest
you made your point very well.
Thank you
Kristo
Thank you
Kristo
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RobGentner
Guest
Well luckly for you there is the Roman catholic Church to clarify it for you.
IF you believe in the Trinity, believe that Jesus died for your sins, and try to follow in Christ’s foot steps, and try your best not to sin, and worship Them, you go to heaven, IFyou don’t know that the RCC is the true Church. IF you do and deny it, you can not be saved. That is what God’s true church teaches:846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: —— Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition,** the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator Note: See Christ is the only mediator Not the Blessed Mother, she asks Jesus to mediate for us to his father and he does it for his Mother! and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.**
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: —— Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, Note: The RCC but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, **the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men. " Aside note: The Church has the obligation not the members so ask our Church and believe us when we tell you what it says. I have had many arguments because protestants “demanded” I teach them my religion. It is not my job to teach. I will “inform” but not instruct nor debate. That isn’t anywhere my job! **
**This is what we are taught this is what we believe. Nothing more, nothing less! See it becomes easy when you follow the correct Church!
** God Bless everyone!
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RobGentner
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I like your way of thinking:thumbsup: And I bet Jesus and His Father does also. Remember to love is to also “correct” What Catholics attempt to do in Christian Love is aide the lost sheep of Jesus back into His Church.
…Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, Note: The RCC but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
God Bless
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Good_Fella
Guest
People who ask stupid questions might go to hell. Are you there JA4?I see alot of stuff around here about how those outside the Catholic Church will all go to hell. Some argue well those who never heard of the Catholic Church wont, other argue yes they will. ugh. I even see quotes from the CCC and popes that appear to conflict (Yeah yeah I know only the smart people can see they don’t REALLY Conflict
So say you have a person who isn’t all that smart, he hears of several different churches. Wants to do right but doesn’t know which is right. He never swims the Tiber. He just does his best to to what he thinks God wants. Now I can see condemning to hell people who KNOW what the truth is and rejects it, but what if he just isn’t sure? Hell or no? Please explain why you answer how you do.
:heaven:
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