Catholics with strong conservative positions

[SoCalRC]

I’ve actually been thinking about this question for hours. And it finally clicked tonight. My wife and I elected to ignore a recommendation for a medical abortion with our youngest. Fortunately, my wife survived the pregancy and our son is one of the lights of our lives.

But he is severely disabled. We ended up raising a severely autistic son at a time when institutionalized care and a wholly misguided stigma was the norm. With things like IDEA and a much greater focus on community based care, things are better, much better, today. But raising a severely disabled child is still no picnic. Explaining it to other parents is like them explaining parenthood to their still childless friends. You can try to convey it, people nod, but until you’ve been there you have no idea.

Anyway, we stay pretty involved in various causes for the handicapped and someone finally sent me Michael Savages rant about autism as a “fraud” from a few days ago. When I heard him recycle the ‘blame the parents’ idiocy that inflicting 50 years of unbelievable pain and still leads grandparents to horribly misguided ‘help’ today, my first thought was - this is the guy who coined the phrase “compassionate conservatism”.

My second thought was, if you are a ‘strong conservative’ in the US, there is a very good chance you listen to a Savage, Coulter, Malkin, Limbaugh, etc. And if you listen, then you do not find hate speech, the vile dehumanization of fellow children of God, wholly reprehensible.

Now I can’t help but wonder, how can anyone listen to calls for violence, cruelty, and hate each weekeday and not see a stark contrast to the readings they hear each Sunday?

The Universal Catechism is a very thick book. The United States Catechism for Adults uses larger print and pictures, but it is still a serious read. Realizing this, JPII called for the creation of a compendium. It is a pretty thin book, in a simple question/answer format. But just in case even it is too much, there are simple formulas for Catholicism in the back. The first of these is seemingly from Luke and Matthew: Love God with all your heart and Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you readily, even gleefully, reject at least the second half of this as part of your regular day, say nodding yes to hate on your morning commute, why even bother calling yourself a Christian or Catholic? Seriously, if you reject the Faith is its most boiled down and simple form, why pretend otherwise?

 

[Al_Masetti]

The outpouring of bile is unreasonable and uncalled for.

 

[maryj]

Quite an interesting debate, so many good points on both sides of this issue. What my biggest issue is, is the labeling of liberal/conservative in this country. Do we really need to be labeled as one or the other. Had a very interesting long conversation with some young people last weekend, they continuously used both terms Liberal/conservative. They asked my husband and I which we were, there was no simple answer. For instance: one young man stated he will vote democratic/liberal because “they” will pay for his college education. Who is this “they” I asked, and does that money he speaks of include my federal tax dollar? Why should I pay for your college education I asked him. He immediately jumped to the conclusion that I din’t want to help him get through college, after 45 minutes of debate I finally asked him again “why should I help pay for your college education?” With a look of complete innocence he said " well I want to go to college and better myself so I can make a better life for me and my family" and in turn be a productive member of our society I responded, he said yeah that’s what I mean. See both the liberal/conservative view in that conversation? Let’s put God back into our country and everything else will fall into line. In God we trust.

 

[dudleysharp]

Explain why the Catholic Bishops do not actively picket abortion mills.

This is a very starnge reality.

The US Bishops have an active and formal campaign against the death penalty, wherein they use the standard and false anti death penalty arguements, while neglecting nearly 2000 years of solid biblical, theological and traditional Catholic support for the death penalty, even though the death penalty is not an evil and any Catholic is free to fully support the death penalty based upon thei own prudential judgement.

On the other hand, the Church has defined abortion as an intrinsic evil.

 

[KingAlfred]

I’ve actually been thinking about this question for hours. And it finally clicked tonight. My wife and I elected to ignore a recommendation for a medical abortion with our youngest. Fortunately, my wife survived the pregancy and our son is one of the lights of our lives.

But he is severely disabled. We ended up raising a severely autistic son at a time when institutionalized care and a wholly misguided stigma was the norm. With things like IDEA and a much greater focus on community based care, things are better, much better, today. But raising a severely disabled child is still no picnic. Explaining it to other parents is like them explaining parenthood to their still childless friends. You can try to convey it, people nod, but until you’ve been there you have no idea.

Anyway, we stay pretty involved in various causes for the handicapped and someone finally sent me Michael Savages rant about autism as a “fraud” from a few days ago. When I heard him recycle the ‘blame the parents’ idiocy that inflicting 50 years of unbelievable pain and still leads grandparents to horribly misguided ‘help’ today, my first thought was - this is the guy who coined the phrase “compassionate conservatism”.

My second thought was, if you are a ‘strong conservative’ in the US, there is a very good chance you listen to a Savage, Coulter, Malkin, Limbaugh, etc. And if you listen, then you do not find hate speech, the vile dehumanization of fellow children of God, wholly reprehensible.

Now I can’t help but wonder, how can anyone listen to calls for violence, cruelty, and hate each weekeday and not see a stark contrast to the readings they hear each Sunday?

The Universal Catechism is a very thick book. The United States Catechism for Adults uses larger print and pictures, but it is still a serious read. Realizing this, JPII called for the creation of a compendium. It is a pretty thin book, in a simple question/answer format. But just in case even it is too much, there are simple formulas for Catholicism in the back. The first of these is seemingly from Luke and Matthew: Love God with all your heart and Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you readily, even gleefully, reject at least the second half of this as part of your regular day, say nodding yes to hate on your morning commute, why even bother calling yourself a Christian or Catholic? Seriously, if you reject the Faith is its most boiled down and simple form, why pretend otherwise?

I understand, but still…these are your opinions, based on your interpretation of the same documents and sources of authority upon which conservative Catholics base theirs. Sorry. You can’t ‘prove’ that Catholicism officially belongs to either the Left or Right. Throughout the 20th Century, for example, both sides manipulated its doctrines and some of its leaders, at different levels of authority of course, to favor their positions, agendas, regimes and actions. The Church always transcends such feeble efforts.

 

[KingAlfred]

“They, by and large, are Evangelical Protestants.”

I can’t account for the Protestants. Can’t, don’t want to, couldn’t, even if I tried. Hannity and O’Reilly are Catholic, and I suspect some of the others you’re criticizing are as well. Not sure, though.

 

[Al_Masetti]

The other day, one of the putatively non-Catholic radio personalities (who, by the way has articulated consistently Catholic positions) … get this … his hearing aid was malfunctioning … [are you ready?] … he said he was hearing Gregorian Chant.

No joke.

It was a hoot.

 

[SoCalRC]

I understand, but still…these are your opinions, based on your interpretation of the same documents and sources of authority upon which conservative Catholics base theirs.

Look closely. Of course I have opinions, but as a Catholic, the statements of the Pope are the authentic authority of Christ. Similiarly, the Vatican’s statements on voting, prepared by one Pope and approved by another, are dramatically more authoritive than any lay group. Let’s face it, you can’t be more Catholic than the pope (though some try).

In fact, even questing that authority, or the Holy nature of the Church is not allowed. See the CDF’s guide on the vocation of theologists, particularly the section titled “the probelm with dissent”

Sorry. You can’t ‘prove’ that Catholicism officially belongs to either the Left or Right. Throughout the 20th Century, for example, both sides manipulated its doctrines and some of its leaders, at different levels of authority of course, to favor their positions, agendas, regimes and actions. The Church always transcends such feeble efforts.

Go back and read my original response. Anyone, right or left, who tries to prove that they are ‘more’ Catholic or more Christain is almost certainly neither. The Church follows natural law and the divine will of God, as best we can understand it. This will never fit a political grouping of convenience created for the pursuit of earthly power. That is why the faith has to be truncated to make something like the ‘voters guide for serious Catholics’ viable, and why the princes of the Church rejected it.

 

[SoCalRC]

“They, by and large, are Evangelical Protestants.”

I can’t account for the Protestants. Can’t, don’t want to, couldn’t, even if I tried. Hannity and O’Reilly are Catholic, and I suspect some of the others you’re criticizing are as well. Not sure, though.

Conservative politics in the US overwhelming promotes Evangelical Protestantism. Look at how many bottom tier law school graduates have been stuffed in the Justice Department - a law school, btw, that teaches we Catholics are polydiests who worship Mary.

This should be no surprise, every national conservative politician must make a pilgramage and pay homage to Bob Jone’s, et. al, who professes that we are not even Christians, but a pagan cult. Think about it, the current ‘conservative’ candidate for President spent a year wooing the endorsement of a leader in the ‘religious base’ that has repeatedly professed the same thing.

Look at your own statements about “interpretation” and “opinion”, that is a wholly Protestant concept with regards to Catholic Doctrine and Dogma. Look at the body from the Holy See I quoted:

“Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith”

And look at the nature of the document:

“Doctrinal Note”

Again, it is impossible to be more Catholic than Rome. We reject Sola Scripture, we acknolwedge that our Bishops, in communion with the Pope, teach with the authority of Christ. If you reject that, fine, it is a free country. But think about the exact words of the Nicene Creed that we profess.

 

[KingAlfred]

Look closely. Of course I have opinions, but as a Catholic, the statements of the Pope are the authentic authority of Christ. Similiarly, the Vatican’s statements on voting, prepared by one Pope and approved by another, are dramatically more authoritive than any lay group. Let’s face it, you can’t be more Catholic than the pope (though some try).

In fact, even questing that authority, or the Holy nature of the Church is not allowed. See the CDF’s guide on the vocation of theologists, particularly the section titled “the probelm with dissent”

Go back and read my original response. Anyone, right or left, who tries to prove that they are ‘more’ Catholic or more Christain is almost certainly neither. The Church follows natural law and the divine will of God, as best we can understand it. This will never fit a political grouping of convenience created for the pursuit of earthly power. That is why the faith has to be truncated to make something like the ‘voters guide for serious Catholics’ viable, and why the princes of the Church rejected it.

I thought this debate was centered on your claim that right-wing, Catholic media personalities were violating the Catholic faith by advancing a neo-fascist agenda.

 

[KingAlfred]

Conservative politics in the US overwhelming promotes Evangelical Protestantism. Look at how many bottom tier law school graduates have been stuffed in the Justice Department - a law school, btw, that teaches we Catholics are polydiests who worship Mary.

This should be no surprise, every national conservative politician must make a pilgramage and pay homage to Bob Jone’s, et. al, who professes that we are not even Christians, but a pagan cult. Think about it, the current ‘conservative’ candidate for President spent a year wooing the endorsement of a leader in the ‘religious base’ that has repeatedly professed the same thing.

Look at your own statements about “interpretation” and “opinion”, that is a wholly Protestant concept with regards to Catholic Doctrine and Dogma. Look at the body from the Holy See I quoted:

“Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith”

And look at the nature of the document:

“Doctrinal Note”

Again, it is impossible to be more Catholic than Rome. We reject Sola Scripture, we acknolwedge that our Bishops, in communion with the Pope, teach with the authority of Christ. If you reject that, fine, it is a free country. But think about the exact words of the Nicene Creed that we profess.

As I said, I can’t account for the Protestants, nor do I care much about them, unless they organize Catholic-hunting parties and come after us. Then I’ll get excited.

I thought you were indicting news people such as Hannity and O’Reilly, who are Catholic. My point was that their political beliefs can be supported by the official teachings of the Catholic Church, in the context of personal interpretation. I’ve only been reading and re-reading the current CCC since it came out in the mid-'90s. For me, the CCC is the bottomline. It’s the official record of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[BSHoop96]

Hmph!

ABSOLUTELY! The Church teaches that war should be the absolute last resort. That means even if war can be morally justified, a peaceful solution is ALWAYS preferable.

.

Well, of course peace is always preferable. But are you trying to say that, for instance, while fighting WWII could be seen as morally justifiable, we should have just made a “peaceful” deal with Hitler to stay over here and mind our own business while he massacred most of Europe? You know…kind of sat it out like…oh say, Switzerland?

 

[BSHoop96]

Don’t listen to corporate shills like Hannity, O’Reilly and company. They are just going to keep promoting Murdoch’s agenda.

Oh please, give me a break.

 

[dudleysharp]

Look closely. Of course I have opinions, but as a Catholic, the statements of the Pope are the authentic authority of Christ.

No, not all are.

Pope John Paul II’s writings in opposition to the death penalty were based upon prudentail judgement, ot his personal opinion. Any Catholic can support the death penalty and remain a Catholic in good standing.

 

[YADA]

An interesting article on this topic …

philanthropy.com/free/articles/v19/i04/04001101.htm

And to the poster who lumped Michael Savage [who does fill his broadcasts with heated and harsh rhetoric - and who regularly riles against all things catholic - at least if you beleive the reports - I do not listen to him on purpose but hear him occassionally while channel surfing - he is not appealing in any way] with conservative radio … I found your characterization of them as hate filled … to be totally bogus …

Now I do not listen to any radio show regularly … my commute is between 10 and 15 minutes each way - so by channel surfung I get a snippet of several programs each day … when traveling during the day [occassionally] I hear somewhat longer discussions …

I have listened to Liberal Air America - Randi Rhoades, Janine Garafolo and several others … and conservative talk radio - Hannity, Limbaugh and sever others …

I drive my grandson to catholic school and could not leave Air America on due to the fowl language and absolute hate filled speech … nor could I listen to the filth and fer mongering … and Michael Savage’s program falls into the same category … the language [at least that I have heard] is harsh and base …

Much of conservative talk radio maybe boring or of a position you do not hold but the language used does not compete with the lowest gutter talk … the imagery of the discussion is not base … the use of base sexual imagery … ugh …

And I have never heard Limbaugh speak ill of the catholic church and in fact I have heard him speak very well of Pope John Paul II, Mother Teresa and others … Rush does not support abortion and he uses his program to assist and garner funds for charitable organizations … as does Hannity and Lars Larson … and many others …

Just my thoughts and observations …

 

[KingAlfred]

“Don’t listen to corporate shills like Hannity, O’Reilly and company. They are just going to keep promoting Murdoch’s agenda.”

Yeah…I’d have to agree. Murdoch is the puppet-master. I agree with him on some issues, but I’m not one of his puppets. For example, I agree the U.S. should support Israel, but cautiously. Israel isn’t entitled to do anything it wants in the Middle East, and its lobbyists shouldn’t have free-rein in manipulating U.S. foreign policy in Washington.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

No, not all are.

Pope John Paul II’s writings in opposition to the death penalty were based upon prudentail judgement, ot his personal opinion. Any Catholic can support the death penalty and remain a Catholic in good standing.

Yep that is what a tiny tiny segment here keep insisting upon. The question always becomes why of course. Given the clear desires of the Church. How people are so insistant that everyone follow Church teaching and then split hairs like this is amusing. So much for the non-negociable life issues. Only some it seems are really non-negociable to a few.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Well, of course peace is always preferable. But are you trying to say that, for instance, while fighting WWII could be seen as morally justifiable, we should have just made a “peaceful” deal with Hitler to stay over here and mind our own business while he massacred most of Europe? You know…kind of sat it out like…oh say, Switzerland?

We were attacked by Japan. Our Congress declared war on Japan (note, we did it the legal way that time). Germany and Italy, allies of Japan, declared war on us. We returned the favor.

Was Switzerland attacked?

End of line.

 

[warriorofpeace]

we alogigize to the states for not getting involved in ww2 till japan started war

A truly Canadian Apology to the USA, courtesy of Rick Mercer from This Hour Has 22 Minutes, CBC Television:

Hello. I’m Anthony St. George on location here in Washington.

On behalf of Canadians everywhere I’d like to offer an apology to the United States of America. We haven’t been getting along very well recently and for that, I am truly sorry. I’m sorry we called George Bush a moron. He is a moron, but it wasn’t nice of us to point it out. If it’s any consolation, the fact that he’s a moron shouldn’t reflect poorly on the people of America. After all, it’s not like you actually elected him.

I’m sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you, doesn’t give us the right to sell you lumber that’s cheaper and better than your own. It would be like if, well, say you had ten times the television audeince we did and you flood our market with great shows, cheaper than we could produce. I know you’d never do that.

I’m sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defence I guess our excuse would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours. As word of apology, please accept all of our NHL teams which, one by one, are going out of business and moving to your fine country.

I’m sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you’re going up against a crazed dictator, you want to have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons.

I’m sorry we burnt down your White House during the War of 1812. I see you’ve rebuilt it! It’s very nice.

I’m sorry for Alan Thicke, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, Loverboy, that song from Seriff that ends with a really high-pitched long note. Your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer, but we feel your pain.

And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I’m sorry that we’re constantly apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you’re not upset over this. Because we’ve seen what you do to countries you get upset with.

For 22 minutes, I’m Anthony St. George, and I’m sorry.

 

[Al_Masetti]

we alogigize to the states for not getting involved in ww2 till japan started war

A truly Canadian Apology to the USA, courtesy of Rick Mercer from This Hour Has 22 Minutes, CBC Television:

Hello. I’m Anthony St. George on location here in Washington.

On behalf of Canadians everywhere I’d like to offer an apology to the United States of America. We haven’t been getting along very well recently and for that, I am truly sorry. I’m sorry we called George Bush a moron. He is a moron, but it wasn’t nice of us to point it out. If it’s any consolation, the fact that he’s a moron shouldn’t reflect poorly on the people of America. After all, it’s not like you actually elected him.

I’m sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you, doesn’t give us the right to sell you lumber that’s cheaper and better than your own. It would be like if, well, say you had ten times the television audeince we did and you flood our market with great shows, cheaper than we could produce. I know you’d never do that.

I’m sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defence I guess our excuse would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours. As word of apology, please accept all of our NHL teams which, one by one, are going out of business and moving to your fine country.

I’m sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you’re going up against a crazed dictator, you want to have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons.

I’m sorry we burnt down your White House during the War of 1812. I see you’ve rebuilt it! It’s very nice.

I’m sorry for Alan Thicke, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, Loverboy, that song from Seriff that ends with a really high-pitched long note. Your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer, but we feel your pain.

And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I’m sorry that we’re constantly apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you’re not upset over this. Because we’ve seen what you do to countries you get upset with.

For 22 minutes, I’m Anthony St. George, and I’m sorry.

The turn taken by this thread has caused me some degree of whiplash. Neck hurts.

There is another thread “about” Canada. Maybe … there …???

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=254207