'catholics "worsip Mary"

[dianaiad]

** It is all sin in the beautiful name of art. What an idle thought to start something sinful under the clever garb of art !**

Y’know, I understand that Muslims do not do, or want around them, the depiction of the human form as ‘art.’ I understand that they especially have problems with any representation of God, or any representation of anything that might be respected religiously, like icons or statues of Mary or Jesus.

That’s fine. For you. Islamic art is amazing; intricate patterns and designs, architectural wonders that please the eye and delight the soul. May I suggest, though, that if someone doesn’t share your particular faith, that it is none of your business what they do, or do not, consider 'sinful under the clever garb of art?"

There ARE those Christians, for instance, who would be very, very uncomfortable with the use of gold and other expensive things that you use in your own art and praise of God. Too…extravagant, perhaps. But what they think doesn’t affect what you do.

Do I have statues of Mary or Christ in my home? Well, yeah. I do. I have a LOT Of them. I get them out at Christmas, as nativity sets. I have at least one picture of Christ up in my new home. I don’t have a statue or picture of Mary–I’m not Catholic. I’m not worshiping idols by having them, and neither are the Catholics, whether you believe that or not.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Most Catholics don’t know that Jesus said not to do either. There are two words in the New Testament used for these actions of worshiping or venerating:

Proskuneo - to bow before/kiss the feet
Latreuo - serve, in a religious sense

Jesus said do both to God only.

**Proskunesis has a broad range of meaning, as has been pointed out. And, words change in meaning - Tertullian could say, “I adore the fullness of the Scriptures”, & John XV in 993 in the Bull canonising St. Ulrich could use that word for the veneration we pay to the Saints - even though no-one would so now. “Oratio” did not originally mean prayer. Words are used for the sake of the meanings they convey - the meaning, not the word, is primary. So whatever words we use, we distinguish between God & His creatures, as we must; which words we use for this, is of secondary importance. **​

**BTW, if Hebrews 11 could use hypostasis in one sense, & the Church can use it in a very different sense centuries afterwards, latreia & proskunesis can surely be used in senses somewhat different from that which that have in the NT. The difference in meaning is far wider between the two uses of hypostasis than it is in the case of those other two words & how they have changed their meanings. **

**BTW - proskunesis was used of making obeisance to the Great King of Persia before it meant doing this in homage to the God of Israel. So the meaning you give is itself a new meaning, not an original one. **

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

That is what one of the Greek words for worship (proskuneo) means, which Christians are not supposed to direct to any but God.

I find it interesting that prior to Christianity becoming a state religion, there were some interesting observations made by outsiders. I would need to find the quotes, but I know I have seen where, for one, they were thought to be atheists due to the fact that they had no images that they bowed down to. Secondly, they refused to bow before Caesar, and say he was Lord, despite the fact that in the Old Testament many people were referred to as Lord (e.g. David). The first Christians seemed to be extremely cautious with doing anything that would remotely suggest impropriety with regard to worship.

**The Martyrdom of Polycarp (155 ? a bit later ?) has the Christians of Smyrna doing this long before the Peace of the Church, never mind the Church’s becoming the Roman Empire’s religion: **​

Chapter 17. The Christians are refused Polycarp’s body

But when the adversary of the race of the righteous, the envious, malicious, and wicked one, perceived the impressive nature of his martyrdom, and [considered] the blameless life he had led from the beginning, and how he was now crowned with the wreath of immortality, having beyond dispute received his reward, he did his utmost that not the least memorial of him should be taken away by us, although many desired to do this, and to become possessors of his holy flesh.** For this end he suggested it to Nicetes, the father of Herod and brother of Alce, to go and entreat the governor not to give up his body to be buried, lest, said he, forsaking Him that was crucified, they begin to worship this one. This he said at the suggestion and urgent persuasion of the Jews, who also watched us, as we sought to take him out of the fire, being ignorant of this, that it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners ), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow-disciples!**

Chapter 18. The body of Polycarp is burned

The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.

newadvent.org/fathers/0102.htm

 

[Bill_Pick]

** If any one praises Mary and respects her, we do not mind. But if any one will bow down to Mary or her statue or make any statue and keep it in any house, that will become idol worship.

There is no harm honoring and respecting her as much as one likes. But that is not the way to respect her to start doing things which are only allowed for God.

It is forbidden to make any idols. And we see that christians have got the idols (solid samples) of Jesus and Mary in the churches. If people had such things in their homes even then it was necessary for the christian teachers to forbid such bad things.

But we see that statues are present in the churches. That is clear sin as per bibleOT and the Quran. The church has made a man into a God. that was disputable and bad enough. But they got the statues of Jesus and Mary in the churches and yet they are pressing ahead that they are right. I hope not.**

But it is okay to carry your bible to church and kiss it and then put it in a place in the home like seeing it as you walk into the house

 

[JonNC]

But it is okay to carry your bible to church and kiss it and then put it in a place in the home like seeing it as you walk into the house

Actually, Bill, planten probably wouldn’t, as he/she is muslim. As such, Planten probably doesn’t accept the idea of the new conevant, or the (I think) 7th council’s teaching on iconoclasm. Islam is very anti-icon.
While I respect planten’s right to his/her muslim faith, I’m frankly not moved to reconsider mine based on Islamic teaching.
Jon

 

[planten]

Actually, Bill, planten probably wouldn’t, as he/she is muslim. As such, Planten probably doesn’t accept the idea of the new conevant, or the (I think) 7th council’s teaching on iconoclasm. Islam is very anti-icon.
While I respect planten’s right to his/her muslim faith, I’m frankly not moved to reconsider mine based on Islamic teaching.
Jon

JonNC, You can have any belief. I do not mind. We are just discussing things here. There is no bar on you to go your way and I go my way.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC, You can have any belief. I do not mind. We are just discussing things here. There is no bar on you to go your way and I go my way.

No need for bolding here. Did I misrepresent your position on icons as a muslim in any way? If I did, please correct me.

I was just responding to Bill, who appeared to have the idea that you are a protestant Christian.

Originally Posted by BILL PICK
But it is okay to carry your bible to church and kiss it and then put it in a place in the home like seeing it as you walk into the house.

planten, I respect your right to your faith, and enjoy hearing what you have to say.

Jon

 

[PJM]

**That is all a good example of one foot in hell and the other in heavens. That is another way described in a poetical sense" To please the gardener (the caretaker) and at the same time please the poachers (who hunt nightingales)."

No disrespect is intended**.

reply:

No disrespect taken.

But consider this my dear friend in Christ,

While here on earth, do we not all “have one foot in hell and one foot in heaven?”

Yes we do. We Catholics pray through Mary as Mother of God, and the Saints to better our chances of landing on the right foot when we die. Hail mary full of grace;pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, AMEN! :yup:

By the way,

Catholics alos pray regularly to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. We especailly pray to and through Jesus to the Father, with the help of the Holy Spirit. We call this prayer: The Holy Mass :clapping:

God acknowledges this prayer by giving us His Son in Catholic Holy Communion. Wow! Now that is a LOVING GOD!

It’s interesting that the HS led you to use the word “(the caretaker)”. So let me ask you; are you a parent? IF so are you not too a “caretaker”? Well guess what? Jesus (who is God) gave “His Mother ot us as our Mother.” So, you were right without knowing it. Mary, (our mother too) is the caretaker of all of her children, and we Catholics are so very bllessed that this is true.

Saint John’s Gospel, Chapter 19: verse 26- "26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!”*

God bless you my friend,

PJM m.c

BVM please lead us to your Son Jesus!

 

[Bill_Pick]

Paul asked saints to imitate him as he imitates Christ, the Church encourages Catholic Christians to imitate the holiness of the saints as they imitated the holiness of Christ and the Father. As a hem of a garment, the shadows of saints, and clothes of the saints were used devotionally in the Apostolic Church, so relics and images of the saints are devotionally encouraged by the Church today. First among saints by the fullness of grace which was hers is the Mother of Jesus, Mary.

 

[GailMac4]

I’m not sure which poster I want to address this post to…ummm…perhaps all my friends from other religions than mine who think because I have icons in my home, crucifixes, statues and have even kissed a Crucifix or relic or two in my life, am an “idolator.” I think I’d like to first thank you for sharing your opinion of how I practice my religion. If you think how I practice my religion is a “sin” in your religion that is great! I’m glad you have an inkling of what sin is.

Oh you haven’t tried this on us yet - why don’t you try reminding everyone that Jesus was betrayed by Judas with a KISS !! Perhaps, if you find some other distorted theological arguments against kissing objects of love and honor, then you could add to your mess by agreeing that kissing anything or anyone is a “sin” in your religion therefore, you need to not kiss anyone or anything! By Jove I think you’ll be onto something grand then! You could give up kissing everyone you love! Oh shoot but that is a different type of heresy. Want to add it to your religion? You could get more pointers on how not to live as a Christian if I could only remember what it called… o shooot…pelaganism or something like that…maybe it’s semi-pelaganisms or something like that…did I spell that right? Now, be a good anti-Christian and go look it up and find out more ways to attack the Church and her members, but please try to remain charitably mocking of us in all ways or it might be a “sin” in your religion too! O dear!

Peace,

Gail

 

[Bill_Pick]

You Know Its Funny Just Today I Saw A Tv Preacher Tell His People To Point Their Bible To The Sky And Then Told Them To Kiss The Bible, Can Yoy Belive This Do You Think It Was A Cathloic Preacher Hmmmmmmmmmm No It Was The New Guy Joey O Some Thing I Dont Remember His Name,i Think He Is Out Of Dallas,he Is Going To Be The Preacher At The New Yankke Ball Park. Sorry I See This Is In Capps.

 

[willingheart]

I am new to this forum, but I have had many discussions about Mary with my Catholic mother-in-law, so I really appreciate your perspectives. As a Protestant believer, I certainly would concur that Mary is worthy of honor and respect. She is surely blessed as the chosen mother of our Lord and Savior. What I think is dicey is the aspect of praying to, or through, Mary, as some of you have said. The Bible tells us that there is but one Intercessor between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. Why then, would we choose to “go through” anyone else? (this includes Mary or any of the “saints”) Now, I have heard the explanation that asking Mary (or Peter or Paul, etc.) to pray for us is the same as asking a living friend to pray for us, as we are all fellow believers. However, there are divine attributes of God that are uniquely His. No other being is omniscient or omnipresent, for example. Certainly it is a mystery to us how God hears prayers from His people in a mulititude of languages and all at the same time! Are we to believe that Mary or any other deceased person also has this ability?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

One does not have to be omniscient or omnipresent to ‘hear’ prayers in heaven, does one?

I mean, isn’t heaven where one experiences the Beatific Vision–where one is in the presence of God and united to Him?

Now let’s think logically: If I am in Heaven, in the presence of God, and united to Him, then shouldn’t I be able to ‘hear’ or ‘see’ what God hears and sees from Heaven? If I’m ‘united to Him’, does this mean only ‘partially’ united? But we are told that “then we will see face to face”, that "we will be perfect as He is perfect’, etc.

It thus makes perfect sense to believe that a person in heaven will be aware (through God) of what God is aware --in fact, aren’t we all looking forward to that experience ourselves? Don’t we all think that when we are in heaven we will experience the fullness of unity with God?

Don’t we realize that our ‘unity’ does not make US ‘omniscent, omnipresent, etc’ IN AND OF OURSELVES, but ‘through’ God who unites Himself TO us?

 

[estesbob]

I . Certainly it is a mystery to us how God hears prayers from His people in a mulititude of languages and all at the same time! Are we to believe that Mary or any other deceased person also has this ability?

Yes. Why wouldnt they?

 

[willingheart]

Now let’s think logically: If I am in Heaven, in the presence of God, and united to Him, then shouldn’t I be able to ‘hear’ or ‘see’ what God hears and sees from Heaven? If I’m ‘united to Him’, does this mean only ‘partially’ united? But we are told that “then we will see face to face”, that "we will be perfect as He is perfect’, etc.

Well, no. Being united to God, restored to the relationship He intended, does not necessarily give us access to all his God-abilities. Besides, that is not our purpose there. Our purpose in the relationship is adoration and worship. Pure, unimpeded love for God. If our focus is on God, as it should be, why would what’s happening back on earth concern us?

 

[estesbob]

Well, no. Being united to God, restored to the relationship He intended, does not necessarily give us access to all his God-abilities. Besides, that is not our purpose there. Our purpose in the relationship is adoration and worship. Pure, unimpeded love for God. If our focus is on God, as it should be, why would what’s happening back on earth concern us?

Because our membership in the Body of Christ does not end at death…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Does not ‘necessarily’ give us ‘access’?

OK, that is your speculation, though, and it isn’t supported by Scripture.

As estesbob reminds you, our relationship with those on earth (part of the Body of Christ) does not ‘disappear’ with our death (as we are likewise part of the Body of Christ).

And just exactly what limitations do you think (please give Scripture to support your contention) we will have in heaven?

 

[willingheart]

Well, I don’t think there is anything in scripture which defines our heavenly beings or abilities, but I know that we will not be God. “Perfect as I am perfect” means without sin to separate us from God, and this comes only through the blood of Jesus. But if we could pray to anyone else in heaven, wouldn’t Jesus have told us that? When the disciples asked how they should pray, Jesus directed his prayer to His Heavenly Father. He never said we could pray to His mother Mary or anyone else. Pray is our way of communication with God, not with other members of the Body.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Prayer is communication with anybody . . .only in ‘recent times’ have a few people tried to narrow it down to ‘communication with God alone’. . .

The fact (and it is a fact) that the earliest Christians, being persecuted and living in the catacombs, scratched out prayers to their friends who had been martyred, reveals that the earliest Christians believed that prayer to the saints in Heaven was authentic Christian teaching. . .

 

[willingheart]

AH - tradition v. scripture. So if I pray to you right now, you will know what I am saying?