Catholism's stand on capitol punishment

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

‘Let us call it by the name which, for lack of any other nobility, will at least give the nobility of truth, and let us recognize it for what it essentially is: revenge’ (Albert Camus)

‘When I see the ‘Ten Most Wanted Lists’…I always have this thought: If we’d made them feel wanted earlier, they wouldn’t be wanted now’ (Eddy Cantor)

‘Distrust all men in whom the impulse to punish is powerful’ (Friedrich Nietzsche)

 

[Ender]

I disagree with that. I think most murders are results of poverty (i.e. gang related murders), which means they have nothing to lose. It’s a social issue, not an issue of threat.

This is not a position the Church seems to support:

But it is a truth of faith, also confirmed by our experience and reason, that the human person is free. This truth cannot be disregarded, in order to place the blame for individuals’ sins on external factors such as structures, systems or other people. Above all, this would be to deny the person’s dignity and freedom, which are manifested–even though in a negative and disastrous way also in this responsibility for sin committed. Hence there is nothing so personal and untransferable in each individual as merit for virtue or responsibility for sin. (JPII - Reconciliatio et Paenitentia)

Ender

 

[Ender]

‘Let us call it by the name which, for lack of any other nobility, will at least give the nobility of truth, and let us recognize it for what it essentially is: revenge’ (Albert Camus)

Lincoln is supposed to have once asked: “If we called a tail a leg, would a dog have five legs?” He answered his own question with: “No, calling it something doesn’t make it so.” Your quote of Camus would be stronger if there was an argument backing it up, something other than a mere assertion. I would ask: is all punishment mere revenge? If not then what makes capital punishment revenge while life in prison without parole is justice? The Church has always contended that capital punishment is just (and does so today); is it your claim that the Church has always supported revenge? There are a lot of emotional (moral) arguments against the death penalty but not many logical ones.

Ender

 

[Bengoshi]

I am under the impression that we are to forgive the sinner, not the sin. it is for god to forgive the sin. Thou shalt no kill. So, if your going to go by the rules, the vote is a ney on capital punishment.

Again, as I have said in an earlier post, the rendering of the KJV of “Thou shalt not kill” is inaccurate. The correct translation woould be “You shall not murder” as rendered by more modern translations such as the NIV, ESV, NASB, etc. Murder is different from mere killing although it involves the same. Murder is defined as unlawful killing wheras killing a person pursunat to a standing law of the land is not. The sinner should be forgiven but it does not mean that s/he is free from its consequences.

 

[pnewton]

‘Let us call it by the name which, for lack of any other nobility, will at least give the nobility of truth, and let us recognize it for what it essentially is: revenge’ (Albert Camus)

Let us start with an absurd nihilist. No, capital punishment is justice (or societal protection). Executioners do what they do on the behalf of the state. If the party wronged, like the loved ones of a murder victim, were allowed to pull the trigger, it would be revenge.

‘When I see the ‘Ten Most Wanted Lists’…I always have this thought: If we’d made them feel wanted earlier, they wouldn’t be wanted now’ (Eddy Cantor)

Next we have celebrity (name removed by moderator)ut. Unfortunately, Cantor sings off-key with this in that he misses the problem of original sin, free will and concupiscience.

‘Distrust all men in whom the impulse to punish is powerful’ (Friedrich Nietzsche)

What a great way to finish. A man that even got the existence of God wrong, although I am sure God straightened him out on that score. I suggest instead we begin by distrusting anything Nietzche says. His little test would leave no on with any sense of justice in the world, which might work if you were into anarchy.

To summarize, why did you post this??? None of these people reflect the stand of Catholism or even reflect on it. Did you even read what the topic of this thread is? Posting random quote search results is not very conducive to discussion.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Why did I post what I posted: In the midst of winter why throw more wood on the fire?

 

[Antrim]

There has been a lot of debate on here about this subject and there is really no need since the answer is very simple.
The Church does not Condone the Death Penalty.
It will tolerate it if it is necessary.
In todays world it is not necessary.
It is up to the person wheather they condone it or not but it is on them not the church.
Before replying to this I would advise you to call your Disoses and ask them.
They will tell you exactly how it is.

Antrim

 

[Bengoshi]

There has been a lot of debate on here about this subject and there is really no need since the answer is very simple.
The Church does not Condone the Death Penalty.
It will tolerate it if it is necessary.
In todays world it is not necessary.
It is up to the person wheather they condone it or not but it is on them not the church.
Before replying to this I would advise you to call your Disoses and ask them.
They will tell you exactly how it is.

Antrim

Simply put, the Roman Catholic Church is officially wrong.

 

[pnewton]

Why did I post what I posted: In the midst of winter why throw more wood on the fire?

Cryptic cliptic. I have no idea what this means, but I like this answer. BTW, I left two puns in my post above, one rather subtle just for comic relief.

Simply put, the Roman Catholic Church is officially wrong.

Officially according to what official or officials? For that matter, how can something be wrong that allows for varied points of views?

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Have to interrupt to say the song I am listening to at the moment is “Dance Hall Babylon”…
Oh, to stir the minds of the faithful out of their settled complacency that their faith may grow stronger…to blow gently on heavenly embers burning in their hearts.
We are in the Image of Christ; what will you do to your brother who is also Christ-image?

 

[severus68]

The church’s position is not dogma. The church has not said that supporting capital punishment is grave matter and doing so excommunicates one from the church.

You made a statement about this civilized society of ours. Our civilized sociryt aborts millions of children around the world each year. They are sacrificed to the religion of secular humanism. Secular humanism is the root of “New Age” thought. You have heard of New Age? The New Age thought lends itself to moral relativism and other evils. You should have heard of secular humanism. Do a search.

Yes, man has learned much over the ages and it isn’t how to treat each other better. I do not know what Pollyanna world you live in, but the way I look at the world, we don’t have much further to go until the Mighty Hand of God makes an adjustment.

Yes, your opinion matter as much as mine. My opinion matters as much as any clergy when it is just an opinion. I do know about prisons and capital punishment. I have family who are employed by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. They are prison guards.

Eddie Mac

Did I say the RCC will excommunicate those who support the death penalty. I did not, so what exactly are you responding to.

You appear to be saying those who oppose the death penalty support abortion. How did you come to this conclusion. We are obviously pro life.

Most of us have come to acknowledge evils that used to be accepted and governments have legislated against such evils as slavery and child labour. We know about more about abortion now and its statistics and because of abortion clinics and the like. You are assuming that before abortion was made legal in some countries, there were no abortions.

You are still throwing terms around. Do you really know what they mean/

Better a Pollyanna world than a world where bitterness and pessimism reigns.

 

[severus68]

There has been a lot of debate on here about this subject and there is really no need since the answer is very simple.
The Church does not Condone the Death Penalty.
It will tolerate it if it is necessary.
In todays world it is not necessary.
It is up to the person wheather they condone it or not but it is on them not the church.
Before replying to this I would advise you to call your Disoses and ask them.
They will tell you exactly how it is.

Antrim

Thank you Antrim, I do believe that that is exactly the RCC’s position on capital punishment.

 

[Ender]

There has been a lot of debate on here about this subject and there is really no need since the answer is very simple.

It is far less simple than you suggest. It might seem simple if all you have read about it is 2267 but if you’ve read what the Church has said in the past you would realize that 2267 is an anomaly.

The Church does not Condone the Death Penalty. It will tolerate it if it is necessary. In todays world it is not necessary.

The question of whether capital punishment is necessary for protection is a prudential one on which we may properly hold differing opinions. The question of whether capital punishment is necessitated by the obligations of justice is ignored … understandably so as the anti-death penalty side has very few arguments to bring to that debate.

Before replying to this I would advise you to call your Disoses and ask them. They will tell you exactly how it is.

Regrettably most people, including those working at the diocesan level, really know very little about this issue other than the current opinion that it is unnecessary.

Ender

 

[Antrim]

I would be very careful about saying the Church is officially wrong about Capital Punisgment.
The Fifth Commandment was handed down by God so therefore the Church is not wrong.
Young people of different ages are reading these Threads.
Be very careful that you are not giving scandal and bad example.
You probably need to get a hold of someone high up in the Dicoses to get the answer like a person who would be on T V discussing it.
The Priests know the answer. They have to when you think about it.

Antrim

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Did I say the RCC will excommunicate those who support the death penalty. I did not, so what exactly are you responding to.

You appear to be saying those who oppose the death penalty support abortion. How did you come to this conclusion. We are obviously pro life.

Most of us have come to acknowledge evils that used to be accepted and governments have legislated against such evils as slavery and child labour. We know about more about abortion now and its statistics and because of abortion clinics and the like. You are assuming that before abortion was made legal in some countries, there were no abortions.

You are still throwing terms around. Do you really know what they mean/

Better a Pollyanna world than a world where bitterness and pessimism reigns.

Severus68,

I wil type slower. Try to keep up. Would larger type help? A different font perhaps? You do know what fonts are?

There is a difference between dogma and opinion. Google can help you here.

I never insinuated that there are places where there were no abortions. You really have to twist my posts around to use that as a response.

I am not throwing terms around.

There are dictionaries and search engines for you to use if you cannot keep up.

If you do not care to discuss in civil terms, all you have to do is say so.

Eddie Mac

 

[Eddie_Mac]

I would be very careful about saying the Church is officially wrong about Capital Punisgment.
The Fifth Commandment was handed down by God so therefore the Church is not wrong.
Young people of different ages are reading these Threads.
Be very careful that you are not giving scandal and bad example.
You probably need to get a hold of someone high up in the Dicoses to get the answer like a person who would be on T V discussing it.
The Priests know the answer. They have to when you think about it.

Antrim

The fifth commandment has nothing to do with capital punishment and in stating so you are being scandalous.

Eddie Mac

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Thank you Antrim, I do believe that that is exactly the RCC’s position on capital punishment.

You are thanking someone for telling you something that is not entirely true?

Odd.

Eddie Mac

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Those that deal with evil men understand in a way that those who sleep in peace at night while others take watch can never comprehend. I am glad to live in Texas, even more after this travesty of justice in Scotland. It has added data to the prudence of a death penalty.

Those staunch supporters of eliminatting the death penalty have never had to face true evil.

There is such a thing as evil.

Allowing evil to exist allows that evil to kill again and spread evil to others who will then kill.

I tire of people who live in their fantasy world peddling their pixie dust idea of life into the realm where only men and women go to work who have no other way to earn a living.

For the most part, if they are ever faced with true evil, their stance will change.

Jesus told us that not all of us would be saved. Yes, we must try, we must pray, we must forgive, but as I have stated, forgiveness has nothing to do with justice for crimes committed.

Thanks for the post, Pnewton!

Eddie Mac

 

[Ender]

The fifth commandment has nothing to do with capital punishment and in stating so you are being scandalous.

Actually it does, just not in the way most people expect since it not only doesn’t rule out capital punishment but in fact rules it in. This is from the Catechism of Trent in the section on the fifth commandment:

*Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent.The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. *

Ender

 

[JaneGrey]

Those staunch supporters of eliminatting the death penalty have never had to face true evil.

There is such a thing as evil.

Allowing evil to exist allows that evil to kill again and spread evil to others who will then kill.

I tire of people who live in their fantasy world peddling their pixie dust idea of life into the realm where only men and women go to work who have no other way to earn a living.

For the most part, if they are ever faced with true evil, their stance will change.

Jesus told us that not all of us would be saved. Yes, we must try, we must pray, we must forgive, but as I have stated, forgiveness has nothing to do with justice for crimes committed.

Thanks for the post, Pnewton!

Eddie Mac

Pnewton and Eddie Mac, Id respectfully suggest that unless you are somehow God like and know what has occurred in the lives of people whom you have not even met face to face, you should not claim that we who oppose the death penalty have not experienced the evil in this world. Im even going to go as far as to say I resent your claim about us not having had to face evil. I have been the victim of some evil acts of which I shall not go into detail. I have known people, including a dear friend, who was brutally murdered. His case was never solved.

As a Christian you should realise that acts are evil, more so than people themselves. I just dont think there is a good enough reason to kill people by execution as to me this does not help rid the world of evil. It is no better than abortion, which creates a culture of death in society. As much as ‘‘evil’’ people have personally affected me, I do not wish they be put to death. If my friend’s killer is found, I would want to say and do so many things to me but not kill him. Sometimes I do feel like I would kill him if i saw him, for taking away the life of an innocent, but that doesnt make it right. Those are my emotions talking. I think festering away in jail is a pretty awful punishment. People can think of what theyve done and maybe repent.