Caught between East and West

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cristof

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Hi guys, first post although I’ve been reading the forums for a while. Hope I’m posting this in the correct place! I was hoping some of you may be able to offer me some insights on a dilemma I’m having.

Ok quick bit of background. I’m born and raised Roman Catholic, but ever since my mid teens I was drawn to Orthodoxy. Through my 20’s I read so much about the Orthodox Church. I went on to study Russian and East European history and I studied in Russia, where I was further exposed to Orthodoxy. For a long time I was sure I would become Orthodox, I was attending liturgy at home and met with a priest. However I would constantly yo-yo between this and the Catholicism of my upbringing, something was always holding me back. Long story short I believe I have come to realise (for reasons too long to go into just now!) that the Catholic Chruch is in fact, Christ’s Chrurch.

However, this has left me with a real problem, namely, how should I view the Orthodox Church? I have read so much Orthodox theology and history, the lives of the saints, I cant just turn it off. I love so many post-schism Orthodox saints- God is clearly working through them, there are so many accounts from Mount Athos of the Theotokos and the saints appearing before monks etc. If the Orthodox Church isnt actually the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church then where does it fit in to God’s plan? What of all the saints I have read about, prayed to and love? How do Eastern Catholics view the Orthodox?

I really dont know where I go from here, I am very confused over where God is leading me. Any answers would be great.

Peace
 
The problem with that is that there isnt an ECC anywhere near where I live. The closest one is over an hour away and I dont really have the money to travel that far every week. So I would be contunuing in the Roman rite as a Catholic, yet I feel like I got so close to becoming Orthodox and have so much love for Orthodoxy that I cant just switch it off.
 
cristof said:
Hi guys, first post although I’ve been reading the forums for a while. Hope I’m posting this in the correct place! I was hoping some of you may be able to offer me some insights on a dilemma I’m having.

Ok quick bit of background. I’m born and raised Roman Catholic, but ever since my mid teens I was drawn to Orthodoxy. Through my 20’s I read so much about the Orthodox Church. I went on to study Russian and East European history and I studied in Russia, where I was further exposed to Orthodoxy. For a long time I was sure I would become Orthodox, I was attending liturgy at home and met with a priest. However I would constantly yo-yo between this and the Catholicism of my upbringing, something was always holding me back. Long story short I believe I have come to realise (for reasons too long to go into just now!) that the Catholic Chruch is in fact, Christ’s Chrurch.

However, this has left me with a real problem, namely, how should I view the Orthodox Church? I have read so much Orthodox theology and history, the lives of the saints, I cant just turn it off. I love so many post-schism Orthodox saints- God is clearly working through them, there are so many accounts from Mount Athos of the Theotokos and the saints appearing before monks etc. If the Orthodox Church isnt actually the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church then where does it fit in to God’s plan? What of all the saints I have read about, prayed to and love? How do Eastern Catholics view the Orthodox?

I really dont know where I go from here, I am very confused over where God is leading me. Any answers would be great.

Peace
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Well, I think you said it yourself. You think the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church then you should remain in that church and continue to attend rather than go to an Orthodox Church because even if you feel it is wonderful you feel it is not quite with the Church that Christ founded. I would suggest then if your nearest Eastern Rite church is an hour away is to make “pilgrimages” to that Church. Maybe save up a few dollars every week and then on the fourth Sunday attend the Eastern Rite Catholic church to get “your fix” if you will. Maybe give up eating out once a week and that could save you $30 which should easily be enought money to get you there and back.

Hope this helps
 
DJK100 said:
Well, I think you said it yourself. You think the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church then you should remain in that church and continue to attend rather than go to an Orthodox Church because even if you feel it is wonderful you feel it is not quite with the Church that Christ founded. I would suggest then if your nearest Eastern Rite church is an hour away is to make “pilgrimages” to that Church. Maybe save up a few dollars every week and then on the fourth Sunday attend the Eastern Rite Catholic church to get “your fix” if you will. Maybe give up eating out once a week and that could save you $30 which should easily be enought money to get you there and back.

Hope this helps
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Yeah I’ve been thinking along similar lines, I could attend maybe once a month and the rest of the time go to Mass. (I should say I never had a problem with the RCC, it was that I was drawn to Orthodoxy not that I wanted away fom Catholicism). I actually love a lot about the Roman rite. But I just dont know how I should view those Orthodox saints I read about, truly holy people.
 
cristof said:
Yeah I’ve been thinking along similar lines, I could attend maybe once a month and the rest of the time go to Mass. (I should say I never had a problem with the RCC, it was that I was drawn to Orthodoxy not that I wanted away fom Catholicism). I actually love a lot about the Roman rite. But I just dont know how I should view those Orthodox saints I read about, truly holy people.
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Eastern Catholics generally have no problems with Orthodox saints.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Eastern Catholics generally have no problems with Orthodox saints.
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And many of the Orthodox saints have amazing, inspirational stories. I don’t believe there is a problem with praying to any post-schism Orthodox saints. St. John Maximovitch comes to mind as an example…
 
cristof said:
However, this has left me with a real problem, namely, how should I view the Orthodox Church? I have read so much Orthodox theology and history, the lives of the saints, I cant just turn it off. I love so many post-schism Orthodox saints- God is clearly working through them, there are so many accounts from Mount Athos of the Theotokos and the saints appearing before monks etc. If the Orthodox Church isnt actually the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church then where does it fit in to God’s plan? What of all the saints I have read about, prayed to and love? How do Eastern Catholics view the Orthodox?
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Here are some thoughts from a particularly strident Traditionalist.

Eastern people and western people are different. There is nothing wrong with that. That the basics of our faith are the same is evident to the entire world. Ask any Muslim.

The schism was both political and theological. Accept the fact that we don’t have to resolve the political aspects. The players are long since gone to their reward.

Holiness can be recognised. It can be recognised in Catholic terms. If you see holiness among the Orthodox, it is because they are holy.

Many Orthodox are likely to be closer to you in religious temperment than many Catholics. Unless you’re going to be a hermit, we need a connection with people who believe like we do. It is a gift from God not to be lonely in one’s faith.

As for judging the Orthodox, St. Anthony of the desert was called to adjudicate a sinful monk. When they saw him coming, he had a bag of sand on his back, out of which sand was falling. The monks asked him why he carried the bag of sand. The saint replied “My sins pour out, and I do not see them. Yet I come to judge a brother.”

The Orthodox are our brothers. We should not judge them, lest we be judged.
 
Warrenton said:
As for judging the Orthodox, St. Anthony of the desert was called to adjudicate a sinful monk. When they saw him coming, he had a bag of sand on his back, out of which sand was falling. The monks asked him why he carried the bag of sand. The saint replied “My sins pour out, and I do not see them. Yet I come to judge a brother.”

The Orthodox are our brothers. We should not judge them, lest we be judged.
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That was actually St Moses the Black:

A brother at Scetis committed a fault. A council was called to which Abba Moses was invited, but he refused to go to it. Then the priest sent someone to say to him, ‘Come, for everyone is waiting for you.’ So he got up and went. He took a leaking jug, filled it with water and carried it with him. The others came out to meet him and said to him, ‘What is this, Father?’ The old man said to them, ‘My sins run out behind me, and I do not see them, and today I am coming to judge the errors of another.’ When they heard that they said no more to the brother but forgave him. - The Sayings of the Desert Fathers, Translated by Benedicta Ward, SLG

Salaam leekum! 🙂
 
cristof said:
Hi guys, first post although I’ve been reading the forums for a while. Hope I’m posting this in the correct place! I was hoping some of you may be able to offer me some insights on a dilemma I’m having.

Ok quick bit of background. I’m born and raised Roman Catholic, but ever since my mid teens I was drawn to Orthodoxy. Through my 20’s I read so much about the Orthodox Church. I went on to study Russian and East European history and I studied in Russia, where I was further exposed to Orthodoxy. For a long time I was sure I would become Orthodox, I was attending liturgy at home and met with a priest. However I would constantly yo-yo between this and the Catholicism of my upbringing, something was always holding me back. Long story short I believe I have come to realise (for reasons too long to go into just now!) that the Catholic Chruch is in fact, Christ’s Chrurch.

However, this has left me with a real problem, namely, how should I view the Orthodox Church? I have read so much Orthodox theology and history, the lives of the saints, I cant just turn it off. I love so many post-schism Orthodox saints- God is clearly working through them, there are so many accounts from Mount Athos of the Theotokos and the saints appearing before monks etc. If the Orthodox Church isnt actually the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church then where does it fit in to God’s plan? What of all the saints I have read about, prayed to and love? How do Eastern Catholics view the Orthodox?

I really dont know where I go from here, I am very confused over where God is leading me. Any answers would be great.

Peace
Click to expand...
I’m a convert from Orthodoxy to Catholicism… what I do is I just hope and pray for reunion of the two churches, and the way I see the Orthodox is yes God works in their lives too, - because they love Him and are seeking Him, and we’re not any better than the Orthodox 🙂 the difference is that they’re in schism from Rome, but - I think most Orthodox have not rejected the Catholic Church, they are just trying to work out their salvation like us. What I’m trying to get at here is that yes the church is in schism, but God can work in the lives of the individuals (despite the schism not because of it), and they have valid Sacraments, and devotion to Mary. So they are much closer to the Catholic Church than the Protestants are.

God bless!
 
Welcome to CAF, Eastern Catholicism section. 🙂
cristof said:
…For a long time I was sure I would become Orthodox, I was attending liturgy at home and met with a priest. However I would constantly yo-yo between this and the Catholicism of my upbringing, something was always holding me back. Long story short I believe I have come to realise (for reasons too long to go into just now!) that the Catholic Chruch is in fact, Christ’s Chrurch.

However, this has left me with a real problem, namely, how should I view the Orthodox Church?
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You might also consider posting this on the Byzcath Forum. People there are very supportive of folks struggling with such challenges.
I have read so much Orthodox theology and history, the lives of the saints, I cant just turn it off. I love so many post-schism Orthodox saints- God is clearly working through them, there are so many accounts from Mount Athos of the Theotokos and the saints appearing before monks etc. If the Orthodox Church isnt actually the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church then where does it fit in to God’s plan? What of all the saints I have read about, prayed to and love? How do Eastern Catholics view the Orthodox?
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Others have already indicated we can and do venerate Orthodox saints. My parish follows the St. Tikhon’s Lectionary Wall Calendar (“Revised Julian ‘New’ Calendar with selected ‘Old Calendar’ notations”) put out by STS Press. We follow the readings, feasts, fasting, saints days from that. In Dec. we all get a copy of the next year. May 7th we commemorated righteous father Alexis.
cristof said:
The problem with that is that there isnt an ECC anywhere near where I live. The closest one is over an hour away and I dont really have the money to travel that far every week. So I would be contunuing in the Roman rite as a Catholic, yet I feel like I got so close to becoming Orthodox and have so much love for Orthodoxy that I cant just switch it off.
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My parish is about 40+ minutes drive when there is no traffic, plus a bridge toll and then you have to find parking, ugh. 😦 When I was still driving our elderly Christian Brother he had another 20 mins to get to me by subway and then I drove him home. From the time I left the parish to drive him home until I arrived home was about an hour and a half. I often also drove our priest home. About the same hour and a half before I was home again. When I go to the OCA for Festal Vigils I allow an hour (and an different bridge toll.) Orthodox in that parish come from the same town where I live and from other even more distant locations to that parish. Hopefully you can arrange to get to the EC parish once or twice a month.

Many of us ECs and Latin Catholics are in Orthodox parishes at various times. I know for sure that for some services the EC/Latin Catholic group I was with at an Orthodox Church was about half of the total number of lay folks attending. Perhaps you feel too confused about where you “belong” to continue going to an Orthodox church for something like Sat. night Vespers. If not then you might try that, along with going to Mass. I do think one needs to find a parish home. Hopefully you can get connected with a Latin (“Roman Catholic”) Church parish where you can have some roots and find some parish ministries that will help you connect with the parishioners there. I could never “switch off” my Eastern sacramental, liturgical world view. I hope you will find it unnecessary to close off in any way that part of yourself. You have much to offer from that part of your life to the Latin parish you end up connecting with. 🙂
 
You know for all the talk of how there is a 'schism" between the two Churches, does God realize this??? I mean on one hand you have men like St Vincent De Paul who is incorrupt
and then on the other hand you have Icons of the Theotokos gushing out holy oil non stop on Mt Athos and even ones in The USA and miracle working relics etc It seems that if thats the case and the Orthodox are in schism according to the Latin Church , then none of these things should be happening ? Perhaps God is confused and doesnt know what he is doing or maybe he needs the permission of the Pope to do these things? Perhaps then God doesn’t care whether you go to a Roman Church or an Orthodox Church??? You know Chris I was torn once between remaing a protestant and becoming Roman Catholic, but being Orthodox the schism doesnt matter it doesnt matter to God if it did he would shut the spicket off and the O Church wouldnt have all these miracles happening in it .
 
You know for all the talk of how there is a 'schism" between the two Churches, does God realize this??? I mean on one hand you have men like St Vincent De Paul who is incorrupt
and then on the other hand you have Icons of the Theotokos gushing out holy oil non stop on Mt Athos and even ones in The USA and miracle working relics etc It seems that if thats the case and the Orthodox are in schism according to the Latin Church , then none of these things should be happening ? Perhaps God is confused and doesnt know what he is doing or maybe he needs the permission of the Pope to do these things? Perhaps then God doesn’t care whether you go to a Roman Church or an Orthodox Church??? You know Chris I was torn once between remaing a protestant and becoming Roman Catholic, but being Orthodox the schism doesnt matter it doesnt matter to God if it did he would shut the spicket off and the O Church wouldnt have all these miracles happening in it .
 
Dear brother Cristof,

I must commend you for your post. It demonstrates both your love for the Church universal.

You should know that there is nothing that prevents you from attending the DL of a local Orthodox Church. Just don’t expect to commune. You can share in the blessed bread, of course, normally distributed at the end of the DL (Protestants often confuse it with the Eucharist).

A heads up - if you want to attend an Oriental Orthdox Church, the Syriac Orthodox and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church (not to be confused with the Syrian Malankara Orthodox Church) have very good relations with the Catholic Church, and have an official agreement for pastoral sharing of the Sacraments. Speak to the priest.

Blessings,
Marduk
cristof said:
Hi guys, first post although I’ve been reading the forums for a while. Hope I’m posting this in the correct place! I was hoping some of you may be able to offer me some insights on a dilemma I’m having.

Ok quick bit of background. I’m born and raised Roman Catholic, but ever since my mid teens I was drawn to Orthodoxy. Through my 20’s I read so much about the Orthodox Church. I went on to study Russian and East European history and I studied in Russia, where I was further exposed to Orthodoxy. For a long time I was sure I would become Orthodox, I was attending liturgy at home and met with a priest. However I would constantly yo-yo between this and the Catholicism of my upbringing, something was always holding me back. Long story short I believe I have come to realise (for reasons too long to go into just now!) that the Catholic Chruch is in fact, Christ’s Chrurch.

However, this has left me with a real problem, namely, how should I view the Orthodox Church? I have read so much Orthodox theology and history, the lives of the saints, I cant just turn it off. I love so many post-schism Orthodox saints- God is clearly working through them, there are so many accounts from Mount Athos of the Theotokos and the saints appearing before monks etc. If the Orthodox Church isnt actually the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church then where does it fit in to God’s plan? What of all the saints I have read about, prayed to and love? How do Eastern Catholics view the Orthodox?

I really dont know where I go from here, I am very confused over where God is leading me. Any answers would be great.

Peace
Click to expand...
 
Marcarios said:
You know for all the talk of how there is a 'schism" between the two Churches, does God realize this??? I mean on one hand you have men like St Vincent De Paul who is incorrupt
and then on the other hand you have Icons of the Theotokos gushing out holy oil non stop on Mt Athos and even ones in The USA and miracle working relics etc It seems that if thats the case and the Orthodox are in schism according to the Latin Church , then none of these things should be happening ? Perhaps God is confused and doesnt know what he is doing or maybe he needs the permission of the Pope to do these things? Perhaps then God doesn’t care whether you go to a Roman Church or an Orthodox Church??? You know Chris I was torn once between remaing a protestant and becoming Roman Catholic, but being Orthodox the schism doesnt matter it doesnt matter to God if it did he would shut the spicket off and the O Church wouldnt have all these miracles happening in it .
Click to expand...
I often ask myself this same question. If we really believe that Christ is present on the altar in the RC church AND on the altar in the Orthodox churches where is the schism? The schism is OUR doing and we must overcome this schism. IMHO God sees no schism.
 
ciero said:
I often ask myself this same question. If we really believe that Christ is present on the altar in the RC church AND on the altar in the Orthodox churches where is the schism? The schism is OUR doing and we must overcome this schism. IMHO God sees no schism.
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Sometimes I believe that God lets the schism happen and continue so that the faith may be preserved better from the corruption man may introduce into it. Sort of like Babylon. Because we do not agree with each other, we make sure the other is on the right path. If we all agree, then we might change the faith for all.
 
You know, God was behind the division between Judah/Israel, but it was a judgement for Solomon’s sins. Jesus prayed that the Church would be one. To say that two visibly separated churches can still be part of one larger Church just sounds a little too Protestant for me. It doesn’t mean that God can’t work outside the Catholic Church. But the Church is the Church.
 
josephback said:
You know, God was behind the division between Judah/Israel, but it was a judgement for Solomon’s sins. Jesus prayed that the Church would be one. To say that two visibly separated churches can still be part of one larger Church just sounds a little too Protestant for me. It doesn’t mean that God can’t work outside the Catholic Church. But the Church is the Church.
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Our faith is still one. What divides us are petty little things in the grand scheme of things. We are still one Church even though many actively deny it.
 
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