Causing others to sin? (downloading of music)

[BrendanD]

Again, itunes is purchasing the music.

The poster isn’t talking about purchasing a CD from iTunes. He’s talking about distributing copies of the music without paying for it.

If someone gives you a cd you are free to use it as though you purchased it yourself.

Giving a CD as a gift isn’t the same as making multiple copies of a CD and distributing them. When you buy a CD, you have paid the author for one copy of their work, and that is all you should take.

It is not piracy to make backup copies for your own collection.

Making backup copies for your own collection is called “Fair Use”, and it is legal. But that’s not what the poster is talking about. They were talking about making copies of CDs and distributing them without paying.

Filesharing is wrong but itunes is far from filesharing. An action is only piracy if it involves selling the copies for money.

Taking a copyrighted work without permission from the owner is also piracy. Whether you sell the copies to your friends, or give it to them for free, they are still taking the music without compensating the author for it.

 

[goofyjim]

The poster isn’t talking about purchasing a CD from iTunes. He’s talking about distributing copies of the music without paying for it.

Giving a CD as a gift isn’t the same as making multiple copies of a CD and distributing them. When you buy a CD, you have paid the author for one copy of their work, and that is all you should take.

Making backup copies for your own collection is called “Fair Use”, and it is legal. But that’s not what the poster is talking about. They were talking about making copies of CDs and distributing them without paying.

Taking a copyrighted work without permission from the owner is also piracy. Whether you sell the copies to your friends, or give it to them for free, they are still taking the music without compensating the author for it.

So is it wrong to keep the album in my itunes library if I burn a copy and give it to my mother? Wait, I’ll answer. No.

 

[BrendanD]

So is it wrong to keep the album in my itunes library if I burn a copy and give it to my mother? Wait, I’ll answer. No.

My best friend and I both want a copy of Catholic Answers’ “Pillar of Fire” booklet. It costs a dollar. Can I buy one, make a photocopy of it, and give that to my friend? After all, I paid for it, so I can do whatever I want with it.

Actually, my whole parish wants to read Pillar of Fire. Can I buy one, make 500 photocopies, and hand those out? I’m not selling it for money, so it’s not piracy, right?

 

[goofyjim]

The poster isn’t talking about purchasing a CD from iTunes. He’s talking about distributing copies of the music without paying for it.

Giving a CD as a gift isn’t the same as making multiple copies of a CD and distributing them. When you buy a CD, you have paid the author for one copy of their work, and that is all you should take.

Making backup copies for your own collection is called “Fair Use”, and it is legal. But that’s not what the poster is talking about. They were talking about making copies of CDs and distributing them without paying.

Taking a copyrighted work without permission from the owner is also piracy. Whether you sell the copies to your friends, or give it to them for free, they are still taking the music without compensating the author for it.

Any legal downloading site such as itunes or realplayer allows you to burn up to five copies of the same set of songs. The website keeps track of that. I wouldn’t expect anyone to monitor what I do with those five copies.

 

[goofyjim]

My best friend and I both want a copy of Catholic Answers’ “Pillar of Fire” booklet. It costs a dollar. Can I buy one, make a photocopy of it, and give that to my friend? After all, I paid for it, so I can do whatever I want with it.

Actually, my whole parish wants to read Pillar of Fire. Can I buy one, make 500 photocopies, and hand those out? I’m not selling it for money, so it’s not piracy, right?

If I buy the album off of itunes it is the same as buying it in the store. Therefore burning a copy to give it my mother is the same as buying the cd as a gift for her. I’m not going to turn around and delete it off my library.

 

[BrendanD]

Any legal downloading site such as itunes or realplayer allows you to burn up to five copies of the same set of songs. The website keeps track of that. I wouldn’t expect anyone to monitor what I do with those five copies.

The poster has already said twice that he is not talking about buying music from iTunes. Again, the music was not purchased from iTunes.

You agreed to these terms when you signed up for iTunes:

You shall be entitled to export, burn (if applicable) or copy (if applicable) Products solely for personal, noncommercial use.

Making copies and distributing them is not personal use. Burning a copy for your mom and keeping one for yourself is exactly what you said you wouldn’t do when you clicked “I Agree” on those terms.

 

[BrendanD]

If I buy the album off of itunes it is the same as buying it in the store. Therefore burning a copy to give it my mother is the same as buying the cd as a gift for her. I’m not going to turn around and delete it off my library.

If you buy a CD and give it as a gift, there is 1 CD in use, and you have paid for 1 CD. So it’s fair. If you buy a CD, keep a copy, and distribute one, there are now 2 CDs in use. Yet, you have only paid for one. Giving a CD as a gift is not the same as making multiple copies of a CD and distributing it.

When you signed up for iTunes, you agreed that you would not make copies of the music to distribute. Were you lying when you made that agreement? How is that not a sin?

 

[goofyjim]

The poster has already said twice that he is not talking about buying music from iTunes. Again, the music was not purchased from iTunes.

You agreed to these terms when you signed up for iTunes:

Making copies and distributing them is not personal use. Burning a copy for your mom and keeping one for yourself is exactly what you said you wouldn’t do when you clicked “I Agree” on those terms.

No. It’s not. If it is you’ll have to turn me in. I don’t think anyone will prosecute for keeping it in my itunes library while burning a copy for my mom.

 

[goofyjim]

If you buy a CD and give it as a gift, there is 1 CD in use, and you have paid for 1 CD. So it’s fair. If you buy a CD, keep a copy, and distribute one, there are now 2 CDs in use. Yet, you have only paid for one. Giving a CD as a gift is not the same as making multiple copies of a CD and distributing it.

When you signed up for iTunes, you agreed that you would not make copies of the music to distribute. Were you lying when you made that agreement? How is that not a sin?

So I made a backup copy for myself and then decide to give the original as a gift to someone. Who will ever be able to judge?

 

[BrendanD]

No. It’s not. If it is you’ll have to turn me in. I don’t think anyone will prosecute for keeping it in my itunes library while burning a copy for my mom.

So now a sin is only a sin if you get prosecuted for it? I’m sure you will never be prosecuted. Heck, you could probably make ten thousand copies of a CD and hand them out on the street corner, and nobody would notice. But that doesn’t make it any less wrong.

 

[goofyjim]

So now a sin is only a sin if you get prosecuted for it?

Oh, pray tell, what I am doing for my dear sweet mother is not a sin and not illegal. Goodnight.

 

[goofyjim]

BTW, if you are only permitted to have one purchased copy in use at anytime (or something like that) why does apple permit more than one ipod to acquire the same music library? Not much different than burning a cd from your library while retaining it.

 

[reggieM]

I think you have to sort out the moral aspect from the strictly legal.

Digital music may be like software in many ways. It wouldn’t be moral to legally make a backup copy of Windows Vista and then give it to a friend. You’re free to make the copy but you can only use it for what the company permits you to do.

One way to figure out if giving copies of legally purchased iTunes to friends or relatives is ethical is to ask iTunes what they permit. If they say that you can’t give them away, then you have to abide by their judgement since it’s their product and you have to comply with their terms of usage.

If iTunes says it’s ok, then there’s no problem.

I think it would be important to figure out what the iTunes policy is. Then you wouldn’t have to guess whether it’s legal or not.

I think the record companies are getting more strict and they want people to buy every copy that they use.

There is a difference with CDs because you can resell them or buy them used, or you can receive them as a gift. But I don’t think the same policy is true with electronic files. We can’t automatically apply the same rules to electronic downloads that you do with actual CDs.

I don’t think the record companies will allow us to duplicate files for distribution to other people. They let the owner of the files make backups to use on different media players, but I don’t think they’ll let you transfer the file to a different user.

But that’s something worth checking out with iTunes so you’ll know for sure.

I downloaded music illegally in the past, and I got rid of it when I discovered it was wrong, and tried to pay back the artists by purchasing the music (to the extent that I could).

 

[BrendanD]

BTW, if you are only permitted to have one purchased copy in use at anytime (or something like that) why does apple permit more than one ipod to acquire the same music library? Not much different than burning a cd from your library while retaining it.

Maybe I have an iPod, and iPhone, and an Apple TV. They allow me to buy a CD once and use it on all 3 of those.

Maybe I had an old iPod nano, and I upgraded to a new iPod touch. I can put the music I bought on my new iPod without paying for it again.

(Unfortunately, I don’t actually have an iPod, iPhone, or an Apple TV )

These are just guesses of course, I couldn’t tell you for sure why Apple chose the rules they did.

 

[goofyjim]

We’re so worried to death and causing a guilt trip over trivialities. It doesn’t work with me.

 

[goofyjim]

Maybe I have an iPod, and iPhone, and an Apple TV. They allow me to buy a CD once and use it on all 3 of those.

Maybe I had an old iPod nano, and I upgraded to a new iPod touch. I can put the music I bought on my new iPod without paying for it again.

(Unfortunately, I don’t actually have an iPod, iPhone, or an Apple TV )

These are just guesses of course, I couldn’t tell you for sure why Apple chose the rules they did.

Actually, their rules state that multiple ipod owners can use the same itunes library so that wouldn’t fall under any of the conditions you mention. It becomes the same as downloading the music and burning a copy for a friend or relative. Besides, as I said the DRM allow you to burn up to five copies. Noone is going to take the time to inquire what you actually do with those five copies as long as you don’t print the artwork and try to pass it off as an original for sale.

 

[BrendanD]

Actually, their rules state that multiple ipod owners can use the same itunes library so that wouldn’t fall under any of the conditions you mention.

Really, where does it say that?

Noone is going to take the time to inquire what you actually do with those five copies as long as you don’t print the artwork and try to pass it off as an original for sale.

Wrong is wrong, whether anyone “inquires” about it or not.

 

[goofyjim]

Really, where does it say that?

Wrong is wrong, whether anyone “inquires” about it or not.

If you actually take the time to go to their website and search the topic they tell you it can be done. Now if one song purchased for one user can be used on several ipods then there is certainly nothing wrong with burning five copies for relatives and friends. Let’s give this a rest. Your guilt trip will not work on me. When I burn that copy for my mom I will not go to confession over it as my conscience has no sin to accuse me of.

 

[BrendanD]

If you actually take the time to go to their website and search the topic they tell you it can be done.

Their terms say specifically that you can only makes copies for your own personal use. Claiming that their rules state something, but refusing to quote the rule or link to it, really makes people wonder if it’s true. Kind of like people that say “the Church says this…” or “the Bible says that”, but can’t provide any evidence to back it up.

Now if one song purchased for one user can be used on several ipods then there is certainly nothing wrong with burning five copies for relatives and friends.

It allows you to make copies for personal use. Not distribution. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for iTunes.

 

[goofyjim]

Their terms say specifically that you can only makes copies for your own personal use. Claiming that their rules state something, but refusing to quote the rule or link to it, really makes people wonder if it’s true. Kind of like people that say “the Church says this…” or “the Bible says that”, but can’t provide any evidence to back it up.

It allows you to make copies for personal use. Not distribution. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for iTunes.

I don’t know how to do links so you’ll have to do the research yourself. But you’re obviously afraid to do that since you might find evidence of what I claim. Apple permits you to put the same music library on ipods of multiple users. They even provide instructions on how to go about doing so. You can wonder about the truth of it all you want. I just visited there tonight and found it to be the case.