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Sir_Knight
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*]If I cause someone to commit a mortal sin, do I share in that guilt?
*] What about if I don’t cause that person to commit a mortal sin, I end up committing one myself?
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LilyM
Guest
More specifics of the case would be necessary to judge properly. In general, certainly if someone commits what would ordinarily be mortal sin under a lot of pressure from you, they are most likely NOT guilty of mortal sin.
You, however, are complicit in mortal sin because your intent was to pressure them into something YOU knew to be mortally sinful.
As for your second point - are you referring to committing a mortal sin specifically in order to save someone else from doing so??? Say lying in court to save someone, because you know that otherwise they themselves have decided to lie and you want to avoid them doing that?
In that case firstly we cannot put our own souls in jeopardy ever, even to save the souls of others. God must be loved and served above all other considerations, even concern for neighbour.
Secondly, if someone is seriously bound and determined to commit a mortal sin and the only reason they don’t is because the need or opportunity doesn’t arise (ie a factor apart from their own voluntary change of mind or heart) then they are still guilty as if they have committed the sin.
So in my example, you likely wouldn’t end up saving the soul of the one who had decided to lie in any event.
You, however, are complicit in mortal sin because your intent was to pressure them into something YOU knew to be mortally sinful.
As for your second point - are you referring to committing a mortal sin specifically in order to save someone else from doing so??? Say lying in court to save someone, because you know that otherwise they themselves have decided to lie and you want to avoid them doing that?
In that case firstly we cannot put our own souls in jeopardy ever, even to save the souls of others. God must be loved and served above all other considerations, even concern for neighbour.
Secondly, if someone is seriously bound and determined to commit a mortal sin and the only reason they don’t is because the need or opportunity doesn’t arise (ie a factor apart from their own voluntary change of mind or heart) then they are still guilty as if they have committed the sin.
So in my example, you likely wouldn’t end up saving the soul of the one who had decided to lie in any event.
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Sir_Knight
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I’m moving my sister-in-law across country. Due to closing dates, warehouse schedules, etc.; we’re going to be on the road on Sunday. Only one mass is going to be available to us. However, we are going to have pets in the truck which can not be left alone for an hour with the AC off and/or the windows rolled up because they’ll roast in there. So one of us has to stay with the animals and keep the windows partially open and/or run the AC.
If I insist on going to mass, I force her to miss mass and vice versa. The fact that they are her pets, she’s agreed to skip mass so that I can go. But I don’t feel comfortable with that. Thus the reason for starting this thread.
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LilyM
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Can you maybe tie the pooches up somewhere outside the truck for the duration of Mass? That way they can’t run away and won’t steam to death. Failing that, maybe find someone else to mind them while you both go?
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Tantum_ergo
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Can you explain the situation to your priest and ask him to excuse (give a dispensation) to BOTH of you for the trip? That way, neither one will have to feel guilty about the other one’s missing Mass, neither one will sin, and the pets will be happy and healthy.
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FrancesDaphne
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ever heard of one-on-one masses?
whereby the priest celebrates Mass with a private group of people due to special circumstances?
Sounds like you have no one to help mind your pooches…
But…
minding pooches is a pretty odd reason to miss Mass - no?
I’m sorry i can’t help out here,
In Singapore we have 4 Mass timings (on Sunday) as the congregation is huge!
When we cannot make it for the ones in our praish, other parishes will have Mass timings that conform to our schedules.
(it helps that Singapore is very small and our Parishes aren’t very far apart)
Wonder if its not the same where you live, Sir Knight?
whereby the priest celebrates Mass with a private group of people due to special circumstances?
Sounds like you have no one to help mind your pooches…
But…
minding pooches is a pretty odd reason to miss Mass - no?
I’m sorry i can’t help out here,
In Singapore we have 4 Mass timings (on Sunday) as the congregation is huge!
When we cannot make it for the ones in our praish, other parishes will have Mass timings that conform to our schedules.
(it helps that Singapore is very small and our Parishes aren’t very far apart)
Wonder if its not the same where you live, Sir Knight?
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Sir_Knight
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Can’t say that I ever have.
Well, considering that we’re going to be in an unknown town where we don’t know the priests, I think that it will be unlikely that we’ll be able to arrange something like that.
Correct.
EXACTLY!
We also have that here as well EXCEPT we’re not going to be in an area where we know all of the local churches or how close we are going to be to them or what their schedules are. The one that we found where we’re going to be at that time has one mass and another mass a few hours later. We COULD stay for the later mass but that’s really going to but us in a bind with meeting our schedule and getting the stuff to the warehouse on time.
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Sir_Knight
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Not if we expect them to be there when we get back.
But two pure breeds are likely to be stolen.
Except we’re traveling across country and don’t know anyone there.
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Sir_Knight
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As mentioned by a previous post’er, is this a valid enough reason to receive a dispensation for?
Assuming we don’t get a dispensation, let’s go back to the original question: If I cause someone to commit a mortal sin (failing to attend Sunday Mass) by my actions (because I attended Sunday Mass instead), do I share in that guilt?
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Gertabelle
Guest
You have clearly done a good deal of research to figure out where you’ll be and when, and then found out the mass times of that parish. Excellent amount of commitment.
It is my experience that, especially in these odd sorts of situations, people can be so moved with charity and a spirit of service – if only I communicate my needs.
So, you might try calling the parish that has the mass you expect to attend. Speak with the pastor and explain your situation and your desire to attend mass. Ask if there might be a teenager or young couple or someone else he knows of who could watch the pooches while you attend mass. You can allow someone to receive the graces and benefits of serving you and your sister-in-law.
We are each of us members of the Body of Christ, and if one of the priests at my parish made this request of me, I would take it on without a moment’s hesitation. In the must-do-everything-myself culture of this country, it is easy to forget that we give a gift when we ask for help.
If all else fails, send your sister-in-law into mass. You stay as near to the doors, hopefully open (again, make a request of the ushers to keep them open) and you stand outside with the dogs on a leash. You listen and pray the mass from outside the church. At communion, your sister-in-law, who is seated at the very front of the church receives communion, then comes to you and takes over leash duty while you receive communion.
It’s all about making our needs known to the right people.
God bless you for the service you are giving to your sister-in-law! I pray you find a solution that works for you.
Gertie
It is my experience that, especially in these odd sorts of situations, people can be so moved with charity and a spirit of service – if only I communicate my needs.
So, you might try calling the parish that has the mass you expect to attend. Speak with the pastor and explain your situation and your desire to attend mass. Ask if there might be a teenager or young couple or someone else he knows of who could watch the pooches while you attend mass. You can allow someone to receive the graces and benefits of serving you and your sister-in-law.
We are each of us members of the Body of Christ, and if one of the priests at my parish made this request of me, I would take it on without a moment’s hesitation. In the must-do-everything-myself culture of this country, it is easy to forget that we give a gift when we ask for help.
If all else fails, send your sister-in-law into mass. You stay as near to the doors, hopefully open (again, make a request of the ushers to keep them open) and you stand outside with the dogs on a leash. You listen and pray the mass from outside the church. At communion, your sister-in-law, who is seated at the very front of the church receives communion, then comes to you and takes over leash duty while you receive communion.
It’s all about making our needs known to the right people.
God bless you for the service you are giving to your sister-in-law! I pray you find a solution that works for you.
Gertie
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FrancesDaphne
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I agree with Gertie, especially about calling the Parish:
Supposing the priest is unable to suggest any parishioner (which sounds unlikely) to watch over your dogs for an hour, you could suggest/request a private mass, just so both of you don’t miss the Eucharist?
Its a tough one (asking a ‘stranger priest’ for a private mass), but, you never know until you try! He may be able to suggest something constructive (if not the ‘private’ mass) besides the ones you have thoroughly considered!!
All the Best, Sir Knight!
(Romans 8:28)p.s.
i’ve attended one ‘private’ Mass, with a priest that was my spiritual director during a silence retreat - it was the day of my departure (the retreat was in Thailand), & i wasn’t able to stay for the once-a-day Mass held in the evenings - thus a morning one-on-one Eucharistic Celebration.
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FrancesDaphne
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…
Assuming we don’t get a dispensation,** let’s go back to the original question: If I cause someone to commit a mortal sin (failing to attend Sunday Mass)** by my actions (because I attended Sunday Mass instead), do I share in that guilt?/quote]
i just realized we have been so busy trying to get you out of your rut that only one person has given a REAL answer to your Original Question…
I honestly don’t think you’ll be incurring MORTAL SIN - your reason for missing the Mass doesn’t fall along the lines of ‘failure to love’ (sin= failure to love) - your sincerity in finding a solution & having done so much research shows how much you would NEVER have missed the Mass…
i suppose you’re posting this thread for assurance and hopefully some Church teaching in this area?
Just a thought: Would God & His Church be so constipated as not to see the dilemma you’re in ?? MORTAL SIN only happens if you deliberately commit a ‘hate-inducing’ act - no?
Sir Knight, do share with us (when you come back from you trip, back at this thread) how you eventually get out of this rut-- it’ll be an amazing testimony on God’s Divine Assistance
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jegow
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I agree with those who have said it. Call the parish where you will be going and explain the problem that you are facing. Also - I do not think even a priest can dispense anyone from their Sunday obligation … the Ordinary or BIshop of your Diocese, more likely. In fact calling your Diocesan chancery might be a good idea to find out if that is possible (that the Bishop could dispense you and those with you) then you would no longer have to worry about it on the road.
Call your home parish to find out how to contact your chancery.
I’ll say a prayer that you find a solution before Sunday.
Call your home parish to find out how to contact your chancery.
I’ll say a prayer that you find a solution before Sunday.
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KarenNC
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I am presuming that you have checked the route, found the town where you will be staying the night, found out that there is only one Catholic church there that only offers one mass on Sunday. Caveat: I am not Catholic and not up on the precise requirements/logistics for Mass.
Possibilities to consider:
- make sure that there really is not the possibility of another mass on that day in that church----I know many Protestant churches offer more than one service per day, sometimes a small either more or less formal one than the main service. If you have found out enough to know the name and location of the church, google to see if their schedule is online, email or call them to ask. Such a service may not be widely advertised.
- Can you alter your route just enough to be near a larger city that might have more Catholic churches or ones with more than one mass, say an early morning one before the main mass, without totally blowing your schedule?
- I would think that the priests in whatever church you will be near would have a vested interest in doing everything in their power to allow you to attend in some way that meets the requirements of the Church–I wouldn’t hesitate to contact them. Maybe the priest visits an assisted living facility or some other venue early in the day to provide a mass and could let you know so that one of you could join in on that and the other attend the regular mass?
- Is there the possibility that there might be a church further along your route that offers an evening mass so that one could go to it in one town in the morning and the other in another town in the evening further along the route? Do Catholics do this?
- Is it possible that there might be an assistant priest or some such at the church who might be able to bring the communion elements out to the front or side door to you as you wait with the dogs as has been suggested? Might there be a small side porch or an area where you can sit and listen with the dogs (depending on their behavior) and have the elements brought to you either first or after everyone else is done?
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JesusSaves17
Guest
if it’s not crowded, the pets could stay in the cry room with one person, and the other could sit in the front and receive Communion, then trade places so the other can receive Communion. Of course any kids in the cry room would negate this plan. Another option might be the same as above except the lobby. I know at our church a dog is in training to help the blind, and it’s walked down the aisle a few times.
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kage_ar
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Call the Parish, explain that you will be coming through and want to attend Mass.
Ask if there is a place (classroom, office, Parish Hall, etc.) where you can put the crated dogs during Mass. If you do not have crates, get them before you travel - they make travel safe and comfortable for the dogs.
If not, ask the Priest for a dispensation - Priest’s can give this. You could also call your home Priest and get a dispensation from him.
Ask if there is a place (classroom, office, Parish Hall, etc.) where you can put the crated dogs during Mass. If you do not have crates, get them before you travel - they make travel safe and comfortable for the dogs.
If not, ask the Priest for a dispensation - Priest’s can give this. You could also call your home Priest and get a dispensation from him.
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Kathrin
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I hope I am not committing a sin by saying this: But if you have to take car of an animal that might DIE if you leave it alone, wouldn’t that count as an emergency situation?
Kathrin
Kathrin
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Gottle_of_Geer
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1. Absolutely - to do that, is to do what the devil does. If he does not escape damnation for so satanic an activity, why should we ? In a way, it’s worse for us to play satan than for him to do so - because we have been shown far more mercy than the devil has, so we have far less excuse. Hell is for the devil & his angels - if men act as the devil acts, and do deeds he does, how can they escape the devil’s reward ? It is incredible that people don’t believe there is a hell for sinners
- I’m not sure what you are asking - sorry
- I’m not sure what you are asking - sorry
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holly_potter
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I found a cool website that helps you find mass times for anywhere you’re going (in the U.S. at least), the site is esp. for those who travel. It also lists times for confessions and other pertinent information…
www.masstimes.org
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Sir_Knight
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I tried it but it displays a database error.
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