Causing Your Brother To Stumble

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If this is not the proper place for this I apologize. I have a co-worker who is a Christian but let me say has issues with the Catholic faith. We were talking about statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches and homes. His contention is that they are absolutely, positively, completely evil (well, maybe I overstated his position a little) because their presence will cause your brother to stumble. I am aware of Bible verses that express this idea, I just cannot cite them now. His arguement is that if a non-believer or “weak” Christian sees statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches or homes, no matter what is the real purpose of them, and comes away with the idea (without asking any questions) that idol worship is ok we have caused him to stumble and therefore get rid of the statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches and homes. What are your thoughts?
 
Really its shallow thinking. The centering is always on Jesus Christ.

Its no different than reading scripture, then adding the art work just brings the centering more into focus on the spiritual journey.

When your reading scripture and then praying, are you praying to the Bible?
 
The_Wizard said:
If this is not the proper place for this I apologize. I have a co-worker who is a Christian but let me say has issues with the Catholic faith. We were talking about statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches and homes. His contention is that they are absolutely, positively, completely evil (well, maybe I overstated his position a little) because their presence will cause your brother to stumble. I am aware of Bible verses that express this idea, I just cannot cite them now. His arguement is that if a non-believer or “weak” Christian sees statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches or homes, no matter what is the real purpose of them, and comes away with the idea (without asking any questions) that idol worship is ok we have caused him to stumble and therefore get rid of the statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches and homes. What are your thoughts?
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Dear friend Wizard: Religious statues and pictures are used in so many faith traditions. They give the mind something to direct their thoughts of God to. For many, they enable us to conceptualize that which is in reality beyond form. As time passes, many people are able to actually focus on God without visual aids or even mental ones, but we all have to work with our current level of ability at a given time in our lives. Religious pictures can also be a great inspiration to people. For example, for a Catholic, a picture of a particular saint might be a personal inspiration to you, and this inspiration helps you to better emulate the behavior of that particular saint. I am using Catholic examples, because most posters on this site would be familiar with those. Another example is how when I go to churches that have depictions of the stations of the cross on the walls. I have to think that these are often a great help to those who come to meditate on the mystery of the humanity and divinity of Jesus. If someone falls by the wayside because you use such things to help you on your spiritual journey, perhaps that challenge is part of their journey. Personally I would explain to them what I am doing. They may not agree with it, but I think a good many of them would comprehend your reasons.

I have a picture of my “special” saint at my desk at work. Since I am not a Christian, I get away with it pretty easily because most people probably think it’s my mom or something 🙂

Your friend,
Sufjon
 
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your responses but you haven’t hit the nail on the head with your response. You are real close though. Maybe another example might focus the problem. I, a good Catholic and a friend, a new Christian, are walking down the street. Approaching us is a well dressed attractive lady. I look at her not in a bad way. My friend see me look and perceive I am lusting after her. Without asking me as to why I looked he now thinks well he a good Catholic/Christian it must be ok to lust after women. Have I caused my brother to stumble? My coworker position is do nothing even if it is not wrong that might cause someone to stumble. Are we responsible for how other perceive our actions? If I pray before a crucifix (or a cross for you brother Protestants) and someone perceive I am praying to an idol, must I stop praying before a crucifix(cross)?
 
The_Wizard said:
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your responses but you haven’t hit the nail on the head with your response. You are real close though. Maybe another example might focus the problem. I, a good Catholic and a friend, a new Christian, are walking down the street. Approaching us is a well dressed attractive lady. I look at her not in a bad way. My friend see me look and perceive I am lusting after her. Without asking me as to why I looked he now thinks well he a good Catholic/Christian it must be ok to lust after women. Have I caused my brother to stumble? My coworker position is do nothing even if it is not wrong that might cause someone to stumble. Are we responsible for how other perceive our actions? If I pray before a crucifix (or a cross for you brother Protestants) and someone perceive I am praying to an idol, must I stop praying before a crucifix(cross)?
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Perhaps what is causing your brother to stumble is not what you do, but what is on your brother’s own mind. That is akin I think to projection, or taking it that someone else’s actions reflect your own motives, because your own motives are what you know. The mind fixes on what it craves or looks for. You are looking at buying a particular new car, and suddenly you see that sort of car everywhere. Your friend has certain things on his mind and maybe he naturally expects people to look at attractive women with lust. He sees you look at her, and presto - he sees you as having lust. Maybe you do and maybe you don’t, but what he sees is what he sees, and this is not your fault. If your friend was hungry enough he may not notice the woman or your glance. Instead, he is seeing all the restaurants. The mind sees what the mind looks for. In such cases, your actions may affirm what he is looking for, but only in his mind. This is not your issue. It is his. You mentioned the good catholic thing. If your friend had any curiosity about Catholicism he would quickly learn that lust for people you pass on the street is not okay. If he did catch you looking at someone with lust and he had any ability to reason, he may simply come to the conclusion that nobody’s perfect and everyone has a bad day here and there. Concluding that you’re a member of the Lusty Catholic Church is not a reasonable conclusion. Again, one sees what one looks for and what one looks for is where the mind is. That’s why in my faith we do what is called japa, or repeating the name of God over and over again either on your breath or in your mind. then you start seeing God everywhere. The attractive woman passes you and you have the same reaction as your friend, but your years of japa reign the mind back in and now you see God passing through in the body of an attractive woman, and this is cause for pause. Lust in check. Usually. 🙂 The point is that you see what you seek, so happy is the person seeks God, because in keeping His name always on the breath, such a person will in time see Him everywhere.

Your friend,
Sufjon
 
The_Wizard said:
If this is not the proper place for this I apologize. I have a co-worker who is a Christian but let me say has issues with the Catholic faith. We were talking about statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches and homes. His contention is that they are absolutely, positively, completely evil (well, maybe I overstated his position a little) because their presence will cause your brother to stumble. I am aware of Bible verses that express this idea, I just cannot cite them now. His arguement is that if a non-believer or “weak” Christian sees statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches or homes, no matter what is the real purpose of them, and comes away with the idea (without asking any questions) that idol worship is ok we have caused him to stumble and therefore get rid of the statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches and homes. What are your thoughts?
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I found a way to kinda nip this in the bud as they say. Once someone said to me, you guys worship statues. etc. I said Huh!! Do you think that when we see a Statue we really think it Jesus? Then I say, No, we know it is a picture, just like a picture of my Mother is not my Mother, but a picture of my Mother.

Then here is the best one, I say it also amazes me how we Catholic’s can have a statue in our house and be accused of worshiping idols, and yet at Christmas time Protestants have manger scenes also, but they know the difference, but we can’t. Then I ask why are we going to hell for this, but you guys are okay. IF having a statue of anything religious is sending us to hell, we are all in this together.

Then I say or is there a commandment that says you can worship statues. but only certain times of the year:D That kinda gets them thinking.

I say if we are guilty so are you guys. Then they kinda see my point.

Then I am asked why do you have a cross in your house with Jesus on it. I say to remind me of how my sins put him there, and why he died on that cross.

Taking Jesus down from the Cross did not stop people from sinning. So until we stop sinning he needs to be there to remind us how our sin made him suffer.
 
The_Wizard said:
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your responses but you haven’t hit the nail on the head with your response. You are real close though. Maybe another example might focus the problem. I, a good Catholic and a friend, a new Christian, are walking down the street. Approaching us is a well dressed attractive lady. I look at her not in a bad way. My friend see me look and perceive I am lusting after her. Without asking me as to why I looked he now thinks well he a good Catholic/Christian it must be ok to lust after women. Have I caused my brother to stumble? My coworker position is do nothing even if it is not wrong that might cause someone to stumble. Are we responsible for how other perceive our actions? If I pray before a crucifix (or a cross for you brother Protestants) and someone perceive I am praying to an idol, must I stop praying before a crucifix(cross)?
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Well if you were a good Catholic you would not be perceived as lusting after her:p But here is something you have to realize, no one knows our heart but Christ.

Causing you brother or sister to stumble is to try to turn them away from Christ by tempting them to sin. Like if you know someone has a drinking problem, temp them to the bar.

Or if you know someone has a problem with anger, keep pushing them.

Anotherwards to be the cause is to go out of your way to hurt them. We are never responsible for anothers actions though, God gave us all free will. But we can be the cause of tempting someone into sin. And God knows if we are doing this, heck we know it.

But you can’t go through life worrying about how everyone else is going to react to what you do. If you pray before the Cross and are asked if you are worshiping a idol, explain no you are not, and continue your prayer.

You got one Judge in this world to face, and that judge is God, and you cannot fool him. He knows what you are, and who you are. Do not let people blame you for their sin. IT all comes to free will. But on the other hand do not draw people into sin either.
 
The_Wizard said:
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your responses but you haven’t hit the nail on the head with your response. You are real close though. Maybe another example might focus the problem. I, a good Catholic and a friend, a new Christian, are walking down the street. Approaching us is a well dressed attractive lady. I look at her not in a bad way. My friend see me look and perceive I am lusting after her. Without asking me as to why I looked he now thinks well he a good Catholic/Christian it must be ok to lust after women. Have I caused my brother to stumble? My coworker position is do nothing even if it is not wrong that might cause someone to stumble. Are we responsible for how other perceive our actions? If I pray before a crucifix (or a cross for you brother Protestants) and someone perceive I am praying to an idol, must I stop praying before a crucifix(cross)?
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**That’s why it is so crucial that we educate those that are “weaker” in faith or ignorant of our beliefs. If my friend took offense to statues and paintings while inside a Catholic Church - I would talk to him and tell him why they’re there. **

**I would also remind him that until the 20th century - a great percentage of the world’s populaton was functionally illiterate. Paintings, statues and other icons were a way for them to understand and become educated about the faith.
 
The_Wizard said:
His arguement is that if a non-believer or “weak” Christian sees statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches or homes, no matter what is the real purpose of them, and comes away with the idea (without asking any questions) that** idol worship **is ok we have caused him to stumble and therefore get rid of the statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches and homes. What are your thoughts?
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Your friend’s arguement is based on a false premise to start with.
He is baiting you trying to get an edge of doubt in yur mind regarding icons and such.
Ask your friend if a non beleiver or weak christian sees him with a flag or standing before an monument for those lost in war if that person would be lead away by thinking your bud was worshipping the monument or flag?
 
The_Wizard said:
If this is not the proper place for this I apologize. I have a co-worker who is a Christian but let me say has issues with the Catholic faith. We were talking about statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches and homes. His contention is that they are absolutely, positively, completely evil (well, maybe I overstated his position a little) because their presence will cause your brother to stumble. I am aware of Bible verses that express this idea, I just cannot cite them now. His arguement is that if a non-believer or “weak” Christian sees statues/icons/pictures in Catholics churches or homes, no matter what is the real purpose of them, and comes away with the idea (without asking any questions) that idol worship is ok we have caused him to stumble and therefore get rid of the statues/icons/pictures in Catholics churches and homes. What are your thoughts?
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Worship means aligning yourself toward that which you worship.
So Catholic statues are incapable of causing idolatry, because they point to the right direction, and speak the right language.

The error of your co-worker is in the understanding of what worship means.
A person who dress like Michael Jackson, walk like him, speak like him, and have little statues of his at home… this person worship Michael Jackson even though they may not realize it in their mind. Worship is in the heart.
This is the same for a Star Trek or Star Wars isolators who don’t realize it.
 
You are hitting close but still not on the head. Check out 1 Corinthian 8: 9-13, especially verse 13.
1 Corinthians 8:9-13 (New American Standard Bible)

9But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

Substitute “a statue” for food and “have a statue” for eat meat again. Now what do you have to say?

Don’t get me wrong I have not problems with statues/icons/picturers I just don’t have a good answer when he says “see DON"T DO ANYTHING that cause your brother to stumble”.
 
The_Wizard said:
If this is not the proper place for this I apologize. I have a co-worker who is a Christian but let me say has issues with the Catholic faith. We were talking about statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches and homes. His contention is that they are absolutely, positively, completely evil (well, maybe I overstated his position a little) because their presence will cause your brother to stumble. I am aware of Bible verses that express this idea, I just cannot cite them now. His arguement is that if a non-believer or “weak” Christian sees statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches or homes, no matter what is the real purpose of them, and comes away with the idea (without asking any questions) that idol worship is ok we have caused him to stumble and therefore get rid of the statues/icons/picturers in Catholics churches and homes. What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
biblelight.net/faustina.htm
 
The_Wizard said:
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your responses but you haven’t hit the nail on the head with your response. You are real close though. Maybe another example might focus the problem. I, a good Catholic and a friend, a new Christian, are walking down the street. Approaching us is a well dressed attractive lady. I look at her not in a bad way. My friend see me look and perceive I am lusting after her. Without asking me as to why I looked he now thinks well he a good Catholic/Christian it must be ok to lust after women. Have I caused my brother to stumble? My coworker position is do nothing even if it is not wrong that might cause someone to stumble. Are we responsible for how other perceive our actions? If I pray before a crucifix (or a cross for you brother Protestants) and someone perceive I am praying to an idol, must I stop praying before a crucifix(cross)?
Click to expand...
Perhaps a little story about two monks may help. Once there were 2 monks walking along the road. The monks belonged to an order which forbade them from ever coming in contact with a woman. the monks came to a ford at a river. There was a woman waiting for a gentleman to carry her across. The one monk saw her plight, offered his assistance and carried her across, to dry land on the other side. The other monk was furious, but held his peace. The monks continued their journey. At nightfall, The angry monk asked his brother, why he had violated the orders commandment, and carried that woman across. The monk who had assisted the lady, stated, “My brother, I set that woman down, on the other side of the river. However, you seem to still be carrying her.”
The point is, wouldnt it be better for the protestant to ask you why you have statues and the like, before coming to a false assumption? Why does the blame have to be on you, a Catholic. Ask them if they have any pictures of family in their home. If so, is that Idolotry? Peace to you and yours. 🙂
 
benidict said:
Perhaps a little story about two monks may help. Once there were 2 monks walking along the road. The monks belonged to an order which forbade them from ever coming in contact with a woman. the monks came to a ford at a river. There was a woman waiting for a gentleman to carry her across. The one monk saw her plight, offered his assistance and carried her across, to dry land on the other side. The other monk was furious, but held his peace. The monks continued their journey. At nightfall, The angry monk asked his brother, why he had violated the orders commandment, and carried that woman across. The monk who had assisted the lady, stated, “My brother, I set that woman down, on the other side of the river. However, you seem to still be carrying her.”
The point is, wouldnt it be better for the protestant to ask you why you have statues and the like, before coming to a false assumption? Why does the blame have to be on you, a Catholic. Ask them if they have any pictures of family in their home. If so, is that Idolotry? Peace to you and yours. 🙂
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I never heard this well said. 👍
 
GaryTaylor said:
I never heard this well said. 👍
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Thank you. I believe I heard this story from Father Corapi. What a great example of a Godly Priest. I love his teachings. 🙂 I think even our Protestant Bretheren could get alot out of his Homilies. Peace 👍
 
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