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billcu1
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Shooting someone armed in a chase that is doing a rampage shooting others in a mall. I understand killing someone in that situation.
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billcu1
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theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/27/death-penalty-support-persists-no-end-executions
Which executions would those be, where the convict dies in a bloody mess and people don’t care?
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billcu1
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But what about 1 Corin 13:1 and so on.There is a lot of misinformation about the Church’s teaching on the death penalty in this thread.
The Catechism does not say that capital punishment is “unwise” in modern societies. The Catechism states that if there are non-lethal means of protecting society then the death penalty is off the table.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means
Some have spoken about justice but the Church clearly teaches that mercy contains all justice and is the fullness of Justice.
***"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. (Matthew 5:7)
For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:13)***
The words in the Catechism and Scripture are crystal clear, very easy to understand.
-Tim-
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billcu1
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Anyone who confusing to “something” and has no idea what the interrogator is talking about. I’m sure the interrogator will accept the confession to “something” and us it against someone.If innocent people get hanged for a crime they didn’t commit, how many innocent people go to jail for something they didn’t commit?
If someone wants to put someone in jail. Get a bunch of people together. Shear numbers will sway a jury. There must be some kind of guilt. They will think and convict.
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Captain_America
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This is something that in my gut I never can agree with, capital punishment.
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YADA
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prison_escapesThe Church does teach that it’s immoral, except when the only way to stop the aggressor from hurting more people is to kill them.
In modern nations, we have the ability to detain such people, so it is immoral for us in most if not all cases. For some African tribe with no way of stopping such people except for ending their lives, the situation is very different. Even in that case, I think the means of death would still have to be as humane as possible.
philly.com/philly/blogs/dncrime/Convicted-killer-arrested-in-new-murder.html
azfamily.com/news/local/Convicted-killer-accused-of-murdering-Scottsdale-woman-278708351.html
cbc.ca/news/canada/convicted-killer-murdered-in-n-b-prison-1.186054
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Ender
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Perhaps a greater familiarity with church teaching on the subject would clarify why she has always recognized that States have the moral right to employ capital punishment.It must be remembered that power was granted by God [to the magistrates], and to avenge crime by the sword was permitted. He who carries out this vengeance is God’s minister (Rm 13:1-4). Why should we condemn a practice that all hold to be permitted by God? We uphold, therefore, what has been observed until now, in order not to alter the discipline and so that we may not appear to act contrary to God’s authority. (Pope St. Innocent I, 405 AD)This is something that in my gut I never can agree with, capital punishment.
Ender
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billcu1
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I don’t know. My self I believe mercy is greater than Judgment. And I believe in 1 Corin 13:1 et seqPerhaps a greater familiarity with church teaching on the subject would clarify why she has always recognized that States have the moral right to employ capital punishment.It must be remembered that power was granted by God [to the magistrates], and to avenge crime by the sword was permitted. He who carries out this vengeance is God’s minister (Rm 13:1-4). Why should we condemn a practice that all hold to be permitted by God? We uphold, therefore, what has been observed until now, in order not to alter the discipline and so that we may not appear to act contrary to God’s authority. (Pope St. Innocent I, 405 AD)
Ender
Bill
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Ender
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Mercy and justice are both virtues; one does not trump the other.Q. 177. Why must God be “just” as well as “merciful”?I don’t know. My self I believe mercy is greater than Judgment.
*A. God must be just as well as merciful because He must fulfill His promise to punish those who merit punishment, and because He cannot be infinite in one perfection without being infinite in all. *(Baltimore Catechism)
*Mercy differs from justice, but is not in opposition to it *(JPII)
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billcu1
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God’s judgment they say is perfect because it is based in truth. God has love for his people. Yet God is love and God is truth. Having love for his people sounds to me like a way to “humanize” God for our understanding. How can God have love when God is love. Can you have something you are? If a thing does not trump another then how can “charity” be greater than all? 1 Cor 13Mercy and justice are both virtues; one does not trump the other.Q. 177. Why must God be “just” as well as “merciful”?
*A. God must be just as well as merciful because He must fulfill His promise to punish those who merit punishment, and because He cannot be infinite in one perfection without being infinite in all. *(Baltimore Catechism)
*Mercy differs from justice, but is not in opposition to it *(JPII)
Ender
Bill
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Bob_Crowley
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Probably a number, but at least they’re still alive to launch an appeal.If innocent people get hanged for a crime they didn’t commit, how many innocent people go to jail for something they didn’t commit?
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billcu1
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How are you going to win an appeal? To much deference is given to the trial courts. If you make no objection to something during the trial you waive that right forever. Reversals are made in clear or plain error cases or Abuse of discretion of the trial court Judge. If this doesn’t exist there’s not basis for appeal. It depends on your council. If he raises no objects your toast. Is he working for you or competent? You might get a new trial, but be re sentenced to an even harsher sentence. If you get life with mercy because the jury recommends it. A new jury might say execution.Probably a number, but at least they’re still alive to launch an appeal.
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LongingSoul
Guest
Since the States first and foremost duty is to the common good, it only stands to reason that if the common good is being harmed by the practice of capital punishment, then to continue with it on principle alone, would constitute an immoral act. It no longer serves justice.This is a false statement. As stated in the catechism, the traditional teaching of the Church throughout her history has been that the legitimate authority has a right and a duty to maintain the social order with recourse to capital punishment. To this day, it is still the official teaching of the Church. Pope John Paul II is the one who, in his effort against the culture of death, has offered the end of capital punishment as a pastoral teaching but it does not have the authority to be binding upon Catholics in good conscience who believe that capital punishment is both moral and, at times, necessary for not only keeping a murderer from killing again but to address the harm he did by seeking Justice for his crime.
This is from the first edition of the catechism; it is still a valid summary of the Church’s traditional teaching on the subject since the early days of her existence:
*“Preserving the common good of society requires rendering the aggressor unable to inflict harm. For this reason the traditional teaching of the Church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty” *
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Ender
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As JPII said, mercy does not conflict with justice, nor is it universally applicable.*In no passage of the Gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence towards evil, towards scandals, towards injury or insult. *(JPII)If a thing does not trump another then how can “charity” be greater than all?
Mercy should not be automatic in every instance.
Ender
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Ender
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The determination of what constitutes the common good is surely a prudential judgment, and the church has always accepted that capital punishment should not be used if it causes more problems than it solves. This is nothing new.Since the States first and foremost duty is to the common good…
If an action is taken without regard to its impact it would immoral, but if it was done in the belief that it was the best course of action then at worst it would be a mistake. It is not immoral to err.…it only stands to reason that if the common good is being harmed by the practice of capital punishment, then to continue with it on principle alone, would constitute an immoral act.
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TimothyH
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It’s abhorrent, especially in the modern, western world where there are alternatives.This is something that in my gut I never can agree with, capital punishment.
We deserve death for our sins. How anyone can receive mercy from God in the face of our sins and not extend that same mercy toward others is something I will never understand.
To not give a human being purchased with the Blood of Christ an opportunity for repentance when there are alternatives to death is the greatest injustice man can commit against another man.
-Tim-
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Ender
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Does this mean you disbelieve in hell? Surely if hell exists there are those who have not received God’s mercy, but if not everyone receives God’s mercy what is the argument that we should be more merciful than God? Beyond that, how do we reject a punishment that has been set by God himself? Did you ignore the comment of Innocent I?*Why should we condemn a practice that all hold to be permitted by God? We uphold, therefore, what has been observed until now, in order not to alter the discipline and so that we may not appear to act contrary to God’s authority. *How anyone can receive mercy from God in the face of our sins and not extend that same mercy toward others is something I will never understand.
To not give a human being purchased with the Blood of Christ an opportunity for repentance when there are alternatives to death is the greatest injustice man can commit against another man.
- Paradoxically, those who oppose capital punishment on these grounds are assuming the state has a sort of totalitarian capacity which it does not in fact possess, a power to frustrate the whole of one’s existence. Since a death imposed by one man on another can remove neither the latter’s moral goal nor his human worth, it is still more incapable of preventing the operation of God’s justice, which sits in judgment on all our adjudications. *(Romano Amerio)
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billcu1
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Disbelieve in Hell? As it’s taught now in modernity Definately. Gilgul, Sheoul, The street in Israel that they burned trash in they called hell…No I don’t think you go there when you die. God always makes a way so what is this evil stuff? “Evil” is only good in the making. The sacred scriptures have always taught “All that has been called evil, has only been called evil to conceal its’ holiness”. So we know when something is called “evil” in the scriptures. Something has yet to be revealed to the Masses. Something Good. Hence, the Messiahs. Or as the essenes taught concerning Jesus " A messiah. And several more to come…" “There will be those greater than me to come…”Does this mean you disbelieve in hell? Surely if hell exists there are those who have not received God’s mercy, but if not everyone receives God’s mercy what is the argument that we should be more merciful than God? Beyond that, how do we reject a punishment that has been set by God himself? Did you ignore the comment of Innocent I?Why should we condemn a practice that all hold to be permitted by God? We uphold, therefore, what has been observed until now, in order not to alter the discipline and so that we may not appear to act contrary to God’s authority.
- Paradoxically, those who oppose capital punishment on these grounds are assuming the state has a sort of totalitarian capacity which it does not in fact possess, a power to frustrate the whole of one’s existence. Since a death imposed by one man on another can remove neither the latter’s moral goal nor his human worth, it is still more incapable of preventing the operation of God’s justice, which sits in judgment on all our adjudications. *(Romano Amerio)
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Bill
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Ender
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Are you saying that God will always forgive us regardless of what we do?Disbelieve in Hell? As it’s taught now in modernity Definately. Gilgul, Sheoul, The street in Israel that they burned trash in they called hell…No I don’t think you go there when you die.
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hazcompat
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