CCC 1498 indulgences.

[clmowry]

If you really want to try and understand indulgences, then I think you first need to study up on the doctrines of the “Communion of Saints” and “Purgatory”.

I think these are integral to understanding indulgences.

Chuck

I think temporal punishment is part of picking up our cross daily, for afterall Paul said we are crucified with Christ did he not, and that we need to die daily to our sins? What’s meant by picking up our cross daily otherwise? I just don’t see how an institution can keep a treasury of merits and offer at will for jobs well done or money given or charities completed…

 

[YinYangMom]

I understand indulgences are meant to be a removal of temporal punishment, I still find it denying the all sufficiency of Christ death on the cross, take a look at the following prophesy

bible.oremus.org/?ql=49895403

That was Isaiah and it foretold of the fulfillment of God’s promise.
How many years passed from the Fall and the time Christ died for us?
Look at how many times His Chosen People turned against Him between the time of Moses and Christ’s death.
Those are the transgressions and iniquities Isaiah speaks of that Jesus atoned for on the cross - those of His people for all those years. The offenses were numerous.

He atoned for them once and for all time, thus opening the gates of heaven to the souls which had been waiting all those years, and for the souls yet to be brought into this world, including yours and mine. Remember no one entered into heaven until He descended to the dead to lead them home. He had to die in order for that to happen.

He then returned from the dead to establish a means by which all mankind can know for certain He is still with us even though His physical glorified body sits at the right hand of Our Father. That means is the Church, established by Christ, guided by the Spirit, and deposited into the care of the apostles thru apostolic succession.

It seems to me by dying on the cross Jesus made possible the avenue for forgiveness He instituted in the sacrament of reconciliation when He handed the keys to Peter and breathed upon all 12 apostles the power to bind and loosen. Without His death the power to bind and loosen could not be handed to anyone. He was the key which opened to gates to all souls, and He left that key in holy human hands to be safeguarded until He returns. Had He not breathed on the apostles and given mankind the sacrament of reconciliation any souls after His resurrection would be stuck just like all those who were waiting for him to descend to the dead the first time. At least that’s how I see it.

That’s not to say those Christians who do not believe in the sacrament of reconciliation can’t received God’s forgiveness outside of the Church. Just as in the confessional the sincerity of the plea for forgiveness is visible only to God and the penitent, so it is outside the Church. God’s mercy is His to grant, and He has promised we need only knock and seek to obtain it (with a contrite heart, of course). But, for us Catholics we have the absolute promise and certainty of completely knowing we have received God’s mercy because we hear Jesus say the words of absolution through the body of the priest, His hand selected servant (just as the apostles were hand selected by Him). It’s a peace I would not give up for anything.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Let me get this straight…This…upon him was the punishment that made us whole,

Was only regarding those leading upto Christ death and resurrection?

Please explain how you mean this.

Look at how many times His Chosen People turned against Him between the time of Moses and Christ’s death.
Those are the transgressions and iniquities Isaiah speaks of that Jesus atoned for on the cross - those of His people for all those years. The offenses were numerous.

 

[YinYangMom]

How does Romans 6 1-14 align with indulgences?
bible.oremus.org/?ql=49950812

Well he asks straight out: Should we continue to sin in order that grace may abound?

That is the question, now, isn’t it.

“we too might walk in the newness of life”
“We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.”

In baptism our old body was destroyed so that we could no longer be enslaved to sin…and yet…Christians still sin even after being born again, don’t they? Baptism didn’t immunize them.

For a brief time, they/we, like Adam and Eve, walked hand in hand with God, pure in heart and spirit, free from sin…until Satan showed up and, just like Adam and Eve, they/we found themselves/ourselves faced with temptation.

“That we are could no longer be enslaved to sin” is not the same as no longer being tempted by it, or that it no longer exists for those bathed in Christ. This, Paul knew, and is why he was offering words of encouragement that the faithful would remain strong, resisting that temptation. We had a reason to remain strong - Jesus Christ - Our Savior, who suffered and died just so that we could have this moment on earth of being reborn pure.

But, unfortunately, that reason isn’t enough, or we too easily forget our reason for living in Christ. Christians fell to temptation and continue to do so today. Certainly that has to have implications.

We walked with Him for however brief a time, but the fact remains at some point we fell and got ourselves dirty. Once fallen, now what? Jesus isn’t going to die again, just for our weakness. So how does a Christian die again to his sins so that He may return to the presence of our Lord, return to that state of Grace in which he was bathed at baptism?

Jesus left us a way to return to that state as often as we would need it, through the sacrament of reconciliation handed to the apostles and thus His Church. That is the promise we cling to as Catholics.

What do non-Catholic Christians rely on to return their souls to that state of grace received at baptism after they’ve chosen, of their own free will, to offend our Lord by breaking His commandments?

 

[I_Leatherman]

I just don’t see how an institution can keep a treasury of merits **and offer at will for jobs well done **or -]money given/-] or charities completed…

St.Paul offers his works of satisfaction for you, who are part of the Church.

“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the Church,”

Christs sufferings are like a work of satisfaction offered for mankind, to be applied to him.
(The “institution” you mention happens to be the early Christian Church that Christ founded and which so many protestants wish to travel backwards in time to.)
Christs merits are infinite, otherwise neither you nor I would have any hope.
His Church, He said, is His Body, and He gave it authority to act in His name.
If His Chruch forgives sins, they are forgiven He said, - because of the infinite treasury of Christs merits.
If His Church offers a forgiven person a means with which to pay the penalty he owes, that also is made possible because of Christs infinite merits.

 

[YinYangMom]

Let me get this straight…This…upon him was the punishment that made us whole,

Was only regarding those leading upto Christ death and resurrection?

Please explain how you mean this.

We **are **made whole because of his death and resurrection. With His death the gates of heaven were unlocked. Our access to those gates is made possible through baptism, when our souls are returned to its purified state (removing the stain of original sin).

He personally released all the souls which were waiting up until His death when He descended to the dead prior to rising again. But what about all the souls which were to come into this earth after that moment? In His mercy He insituted the sacrament of baptism so that future generations could continue to be saved after He physically returned to heaven. It is a sacrament because it is an outward sign of God’s grace bestowed upon mankind.

But we are only baptized once. Only at that moment are our souls pure as the white of snow, bathed in His blood and full of grace. That lasts only so long as we follow Paul’s advice and do our darndest not to be enslaved to sin. We are called to cooperate with God’s grace in order to remain pure, but we are human, we are weak (especially if we are not diligent in our faith and works in the Lord, which, be honest, happens) and Satan is persistent, if nothing else. And so we, just like Adam and Eve, make one poor choice and our soul is stained again.

Since we have the stain of sin on us we know we cannot enter into heaven, so now what?

The souls of every person who died from Adam and Eve until Christ descended to the dead were neither in heaven or hell. The gates of heaven were locked. We know this as the punishment for the Fall. I don’t know where they were. Some, I imagine went straight to hell, but many more, I would hope, were in a state of waiting for the Promised One.

So if that state of waiting was the consequence for Adam and Eve’s disobedience which befell their descendents, including those of us who do not get reborn through baptism, why wouldn’t it be the consequence for our own disobedience after we were purified by His blood?

Certainly there has to be a consequence for taking the gift of rebirth for granted by chosing to sin against Our Lord. What do you propose it is?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

What do non-Catholic Christians rely on to return their souls to that state of grace

Christ’s ultimate sacrifice HIS death and resurrection, HIS grace and His love.

received at baptism after they’ve chosen, of their own free will, to offend our Lord by breaking His commandments?

Repenting and fervently trying to constantly walk closer with our LORD always seeking HIS face.
Being completely sanctified and justified in Christ, by the work of Christ on the cross.
The very propitiation offered by the Lord in his sacrifice seems to be usurped by the Catholic Church. The power and priesthood and mediatorship of Christ is replaced by that of the Catholic Church and it becomes the means by which your churches people are relieved of sin punishment.
It seems like quite the outrageous claim in my opinion and it detracts from the power and glory and sufficiency of the cross.

 

[YinYangMom]

Christ’s ultimate sacrifice HIS death and resurrection, HIS grace and His love.

Repenting and fervently trying to constantly walk closer with our LORD always seeking HIS face.

How do you repent? Are there any outward signs of repentence you are obliged to make? If so, who established those?

Being completely sanctified and justified in Christ, by the work of Christ on the cross.

Yeah, that happened at your baptism.
But do you really believe your soul is still sanctified after you willfully sin against Him?
Do you believe His sacrifice atones for all the sins you’ll ever commit in your lifetime?

The very propitiation offered by the Lord in his sacrifice seems to be usurped by the Catholic Church. The power and priesthood and mediatorship of Christ is** replaced** by that of the Catholic Church and it becomes the means by which your churches people are relieved of sin punishment.

Not replaced. Remains. Christ physically returned to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. But His body remains here on earth in the Catholic Church. He said He would remain with us in that way until He comes again in Glory and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. He set it up that way, the apostles didn’t come up with that on their own.

God’s people are relieved of sin and the temporal punishment of those sins through the Body of Jesus Christ, His Church, via the sacraments Jesus himself instituted prior to His departure.

Trinitarian baptism, and the requirement for it, was defined by Him.

Reconciliation was established by him and the power to bind and loosen transmitted to the apostles when He breathed upon them.

He also left the annointing of the sick as a means by which the faithful can be physically/emotionally strenghthened in times of illness: “Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the Church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven” (James 5,14-15).

The Eucharist was established by Him at the last supper.

Marriage was established by God the Father but Jesus clarified the teachings on it while He was here.

Holy Orders was established by Jesus at the last supper when he washed the feet of the apostles and commanded them to serve others. We see in scripture that laying of the hands was one of the outward signs of passing on the authority of the apostles onto certain people hand selected (as the apostles were themselves) to serve the church. Even Paul, who was called by Christ Himself, had hands laid upon him by the apostles before going out to serve our Lord.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

How do you repent?

I walk in the opposite direction of my sin, I pray to my Father that he guide me through my repentance.

Yeah, that happened at your baptism.

If you mean water baptism…
Nothing happened to me at my baptism! I find the regeneration at baptism interpretation of scripture WAY off the mark and something that may prevent many from salvation.

But do you really believe your soul is still sanctified after you willfully sin against Him?

Have you read Peter’s epistles lately? sin is of the flesh!

Do you believe His sacrifice atones for all the sins you’ll ever commit in your lifetime?

The short answer yes.

Not replaced. Remains. Christ **physically returned **to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. But His body remains here on earth in the Catholic Church.

Did He physically return or does His body remain? Just curious

God’s people are relieved of sin and the temporal punishment of those sins through the Body of Jesus Christ, His Church, via the sacraments Jesus himself instituted prior to His departure.

The sacrements are the Catholic churches means of mediatorship, Christ is our mediator.

 

[Zooey]

heisenberg:

A very very simple understanding of an indulgence is simply the opposite of Sin. If something that offends God is a Sin, then something that pleases God is an Indulgence.

That being said, there are several things in scripture that indicate that faith and prayers of one, effect the state of another. Example, In Matthew, the Centurion comes up to Christ and asks him to heal his servant. Christ does NOT say “the servant must ask for help, not you” he Does say, effectively, because of your faith, your servant has been healed.

This is the easiest example to show how the prayers and faith of one effect the state of someone else, regardless of THEIR personal state.

OK, see, I understand that!! Thank you:thumbsup: , Heisenberg, that is clear to me now.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Have you read Peter’s epistles lately? sin is of the flesh!

.

1 Peter 4
Living for God
1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

 

[YinYangMom]

I walk in the opposite direction of my sin, I pray to my Father that he guide me through my repentance.

So as He guides you through your repentence, are there actions required of you? Isn’t there something you are led to do? If so, what? And how did you come to identify which action needed to be taken?

If you mean water baptism…
Nothing happened to me at my baptism! I find the regeneration at baptism interpretation of scripture WAY off the mark and something that may prevent many from salvation.

Ah, so you don’t take Jesus’ words to heart:
John 3
5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

*6 *That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. *7 *Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

Have you read Peter’s epistles lately? sin is of the flesh!

Sin is committed through the flesh, yes. You don’t believe our actions affect the state of our soul? Why then would the souls of Adam and Eve and all their descendents be left waiting for the Promised One to lead them into Heaven? Apparently their actions affected the state of their souls, and thus our actions after baptism affect the state of ours.

The short answer yes.

How does this happen. How does His one sacrifice atone for all the sins you may ever commit?

Did He physically return or does His body remain? Just curious

His spiritual and an aspect of His physical body remains in the Church. His glorified body is in Heaven as we learned through the Ascension. He will physically come again on the Last Day at which time the spiritual body of the Church will no longer be necessary as He will gather all souls at that time and judge them accordingly, separating the sheep from the goats.

The sacrements are the Catholic churches means of mediatorship, Christ is our mediator.

Christ indeed is the mediator of all the graces conferred through the sacraments He instituted. You keep thinking man is doing all this stuff, but it isn’t man, it is Christ Himself working through men.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Ah, so you don’t take Jesus’ words to heart:
John 3
5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

*6 *That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. *7 *Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

No it is your incorrect interpretaion of born of the water I don’t take serious.
Baptized in the spirit is absolutely necessary for salvation.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Why then would the souls of Adam and Eve and all their descendents be left waiting for the Promised One to lead them into Heaven? Apparently their actions affected the state of their souls, and thus our actions after baptism affect the state of ours.

Do you not know Christ came to fulfill the law of the old covenant?
for if the law now matters unto righteousness then Christ died in vain.

See…
“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.” (Gal 2:21, ESV)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

How does this happen. How does His one sacrifice atone for all the sins you may ever commit?

Because if it didn’t we’d all be resigned to hell…

For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23).

 

[YinYangMom]

1 Peter 4
Living for God
1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

Certainly the baptized do not live for evil human desires, but we still succumb to them, do we not?

We can desire to do the will of God 24/7 but desire alone will not make it happen. In fact, we know it is really, really hard to remain that focused on His will, not our own, which is the whole reason Paul is writing to the faithful in that letter, offering encouragement.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Isn’t there something you are led to do? If so, what? And how did you come to identify which action needed to be taken?

Repent= change 180%

Matthew 4:17 17From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

Do you think Jesus meant change your ways or do sacrements?

 

[YinYangMom]

No it is your incorrect interpretaion of born of the water I don’t take serious.
Baptized in the spirit is absolutely necessary for salvation.

So what did Jesus mean when He said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit”???

 

[davidv]

Repent= change 180%

Matthew 4:17 17From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

Do you think Jesus meant change your ways or do sacrements?

Yes

 

[YinYangMom]

Do you not know Christ came to fulfill the law of the old covenant?
for if the law now matters unto righteousness then Christ died in vain.

See…
“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.” (Gal 2:21, ESV)

The Law, being, Old Testament Law handed down thru Moses, yes which was left in the hands of the Levitical priests as the keeper of the tabernacle and those empowered to atone for the sins of the faithful back then.

Jesus established a NEW covenant, left in the hands of the Catholic church (bishops/priests/deacons) as keeper of the Real Presence and empowered to absolve the sins of the faithful.

I see no nullification of grace at all.
I see the transfer of the means by which the grace is dispersed from the Old ways to the New way.