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Tonight I saw a quote for the Catechism that said "460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.“81”

In researching thes passage I have no problem with the idea of becoming “partakers of the divine nature,” but the part that states that “we might become God” worries me. Is this saying that we can one day become God’s equal or close to it; or that we will become a god in the sense that God is our God?

Please help me understand this passage. Thanks.
 
In researching thes passage I have no problem with the idea of becoming “partakers of the divine nature,” but the part that states that “we might become God” worries me.
They mean one and the same thing.
 
This is called Theosis (or Divinization). It is a theological framework which was worked out in the early Church, when the nature of Christ (and our relationship to it) was not clearly understood. St. Athanasius of Alexandria (one of the greatest Early Church Fathers) helped explain this mystery.

But it is important to note that Athanasius did not intend to teach that man might become divine by having a divine nature ourselves - only that man can partake in the divine nature of God (in whose image we are created). We partake (meaning consume, not assume). We partake (for example) in Christian Baptism, when the Spirit of God comes to dwell within us, and in Eucharist, when we unite ourselves with the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord.

This article should provide additional clarity.
 
Tonight I saw a quote for the Catechism that said "460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.“81”

In researching thes passage I have no problem with the idea of becoming “partakers of the divine nature,” but the part that states that “we might become God” worries me. Is this saying that we can one day become God’s equal or close to it; or that we will become a god in the sense that God is our God?

Please help me understand this passage. Thanks.
Very interesting question, my friend! Here is a concept to consider:
When Jesus laid down His life during His crucifixion. He revealed His Holy Spirit. Since we have the Holy Spirit in us, we have the ability to act in oneness with the Holy Spirit. At this point in consideration, it becomes a math equation.
If a person is acting in oneness with the Holy Spirit, then s/he is one with the Holy Spirit.
If a person is one with the Holy Spirit, then there is no division between the Holy Spirit and the person, therefore it can be stated that the person is the Holy Spirit or God.
If a person can perfect living in oneness with the Holy Spirit, until death, then the person became eternally one with the Holy Spirit, and therefore became God.
 
Very interesting question, my friend! Here is a concept to consider:
When Jesus laid down His life during His crucifixion. He revealed His Holy Spirit. Since we have the Holy Spirit in us, we have the ability to act in oneness with the Holy Spirit. At this point in consideration, it becomes a math equation.
If a person is acting in oneness with the Holy Spirit, then s/he is one with the Holy Spirit.
If a person is one with the Holy Spirit, then there is no division between the Holy Spirit and the person, therefore it can be stated that the person is the Holy Spirit or God.
If a person can perfect living in oneness with the Holy Spirit, until death, then the person became eternally one with the Holy Spirit, and therefore became God.
Where did you get this from?

Was this something your read or distilled from a variety of other teachings?

-Tim-
 
When Jesus laid down His life during His crucifixion. He revealed His Holy Spirit. Since we have the Holy Spirit in us, we have the ability to act in oneness with the Holy Spirit. At this point in consideration, it becomes a math equation.
If a person is acting in oneness with the Holy Spirit, then s/he is one with the Holy Spirit.
If a person is one with the Holy Spirit, then there is no division between the Holy Spirit and the person, therefore it can be stated that the person is the Holy Spirit or God.
If a person can perfect living in oneness with the Holy Spirit, until death, then the person became eternally one with the Holy Spirit, and therefore became God.
Again with the ‘math equation’ stuff, jochoa? :rolleyes: 😉

But, there’s more to address than your attempts to turn the Trinity into an algebraic identity…

You first assert that, due to the presence of the Holy Spirit (which I would peg to Pentecost, rather than to the Crucifixion, strictly speaking), we “have the ability to act in oneness with the Holy Spirit.” However, you make a leap of logic that seems unsubstantiated: your premise requires that we are actually “acting in oneness with the Holy Spirit”. Yet, you’ve never established that assertion, but rather, only that we have that ability.

I’d agree with you that, by virtue of our baptism and confirmation, we have the ability to act in concert with God’s will. However, in no way does that mean that we actually do so, at any arbitrary time (in fact, given that we are all sinners, and are all in need of repentance and metanoia, it’s more reasonable to say that we, as humans, are typically not acting in oneness with the Holy Spirit!). Worse yet, you move not only from ‘ability’ to ‘act’, but from ‘act’ to ‘state of being’ – again in an unsubstantiated way, you assert that acting in oneness is equivalent to being in a (constant) state of undividedness with the Spirit! There’s nothing that warrants such an assertion!

In mathematical terms, your first statement looks something like:

∀ (x, y) such that y=F(x, t), ∃ a non-empty set SP such that y ∈ SP and at least one other element z, such that z ∈ SP.

Now that you’ve established that a correspondence is possible between y (the human) and z (“acting in oneness”), you assert without proof that y ∈ SP and z ∈ SP implies y=z. That’s just doesn’t hold.

Your third assertion, then, seems to be saying that, for all t, F(x, t) = z. Again, no substantiation.

Nevertheless, outside of these particular claims, your general ‘math equation’ stuff still breaks down. “Acting in oneness with the Holy Spirit” doesn’t make us identical to the Holy Spirit, while we live as humans on this earth. That kind of perfection may only be attained in heaven.

Therefore, an attempt to assert that, while alive on earth, we may be one with God in heaven – as an ongoing condition – runs counter to what we know about God’s nature and our human nature.

Blessings,

G.
 
One of the most beautiful passages in the whole Bible, which speaks to me pesonally of prayer, is the beginning of 2 Peter.

***His divine power *has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. (1 Peter 1:3-4)

By knowledge, the author does not mean book knowledge or intellectual knowledge, but knowledge gained through experience of actually being touched by God, experience of being in intimate contact with God.

This “Taste” of God is a pledge, a foretaste of heaven, a pearl of great price, a precious and very great promise of what awaits us. Being called to his golory and excellence, we can actually become “Partakers” in God’s own divine nature, moving from the image to the likeness of God.

No disciple is above his teacher, no slave above his master. It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, for the slave that he become like his master. (Matthew 10:24-25)

To become like the master. To be divinized. To become partakers in God’s divine nature. That is what CCC 460 is talking about.

***And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, *(Luke 1:46)

That is what CCC 460 is talking about.

-Tim-
 
Where did you get this from?

Was this something your read or distilled from a variety of other teachings?

-Tim-
Thank you for inquiring further.

I distilled this from a variety of Scriptures, Catechisms, Homilies, understandings and practices of the Sacraments, and prayers.
 
Again with the ‘math equation’ stuff, jochoa? :rolleyes: 😉

But, there’s more to address than your attempts to turn the Trinity into an algebraic identity…

You first assert that, due to the presence of the Holy Spirit (which I would peg to Pentecost, rather than to the Crucifixion, strictly speaking), we “have the ability to act in oneness with the Holy Spirit.” However, you make a leap of logic that seems unsubstantiated: your premise requires that we are actually “acting in oneness with the Holy Spirit”. Yet, you’ve never established that assertion, but rather, only that we have that ability.

I’d agree with you that, by virtue of our baptism and confirmation, we have the ability to act in concert with God’s will. However, in no way does that mean that we actually do so, at any arbitrary time (in fact, given that we are all sinners, and are all in need of repentance and metanoia, it’s more reasonable to say that we, as humans, are typically not acting in oneness with the Holy Spirit!). Worse yet, you move not only from ‘ability’ to ‘act’, but from ‘act’ to ‘state of being’ – again in an unsubstantiated way, you assert that acting in oneness is equivalent to being in a (constant) state of undividedness with the Spirit! There’s nothing that warrants such an assertion!

In mathematical terms, your first statement looks something like:

∀ (x, y) such that y=F(x, t), ∃ a non-empty set SP such that y ∈ SP and at least one other element z, such that z ∈ SP.

Now that you’ve established that a correspondence is possible between y (the human) and z (“acting in oneness”), you assert without proof that y ∈ SP and z ∈ SP implies y=z. That’s just doesn’t hold.

Your third assertion, then, seems to be saying that, for all t, F(x, t) = z. Again, no substantiation.

Nevertheless, outside of these particular claims, your general ‘math equation’ stuff still breaks down. “Acting in oneness with the Holy Spirit” doesn’t make us identical to the Holy Spirit, while we live as humans on this earth. That kind of perfection may only be attained in heaven.

Therefore, an attempt to assert that, while alive on earth, we may be one with God in heaven – as an ongoing condition – runs counter to what we know about God’s nature and our human nature.

Blessings,

G.
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge! You are intellectually far past my understanding of algebra, and I appreciate you demonstrating how my understandings break down. Please know I only share these as personal concepts which help me grow closer to God in the hopes of helping others grow closer to God and help me grow greater in presentation.

Regarding “acting in oneness”
This is currently the understanding I have of “acting in oneness” based on the Greatest Commandments, Embracing the Cross, Practice of Patience and Kindness for Peace and Happiness while on earth, and Loving the Enemy: Always freely being and spreading the means to freely be perfectly patient, kind, and motivated with all the body, spirit, thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self for the experience of limitless happiness without ever losing peace in all your relationships, including the self, through the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.

Here are a few questions to consider:
Is Jesus a man, a god, or God, or some combination?
Do you believe that the Father’s Will is/will be done on earth, as it is in heaven? And if His Will is being done, do you believe this is an experience of Heaven? What are your understandings on How the Father’s Will is done on earth?
Do you believe that during Holy Communion, we are in complete union (body, spirit, mind, and will) with God, the Holy Trinity, or the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit?
 
Please know I only share these as personal concepts which help me grow closer to God in the hopes of helping others grow closer to God and help me grow greater in presentation.
jochoa,

Yes, that makes sense. My concern, though, is that some of your meditations may be leading you to expressions that aren’t in line with the way that the Church expresses her doctrine. So, while valuable to you in your faith journey as mileposts along the way of your growing understanding, they may nonetheless prove to be stumbling blocks. So, I think our discussion has great merit, allowing many to benefit both from your deliberations and from the wisdom of the Church… 🙂
Here are a few questions to consider:
Is Jesus a man, a god, or God, or some combination?
Yes, no, yes, no. 🙂

Jesus is the incarnation of the Logos, the 2nd person of God. So, properly speaking, Jesus is the incarnation of God. He is not a ‘combination’, though. In the early centuries of the Church, as the doctrine of the Trinity was beginning to be developed, there were many misunderstandings. Among them were ideas that Jesus was some mixture or combination of God and man; or, a man specially blessed by God; or God, who just appeared to be a man. What the Church came to understand was that in Jesus, we see the incarnation of the Logos, fully God and fully Man, with a complete divine nature and a complete human nature, without any type of ‘mixture’ or any type of ‘confusion’ between the divine and human nature or will. It’s not an easy concept.
Do you believe that the Father’s Will is/will be done on earth, as it is in heaven?
I believe that, since Jesus taught us to pray this, it is something that we strive toward. Since God’s will is done in us through our thoughts and actions, it’s a goal that we’ll never completely reach while living on earth; however, it’s a standard to which we aspire, and so, it becomes more (or less) present depending on our reaction to God’s grace in our lives.
And if His Will is being done, do you believe this is an experience of Heaven?
The Kingdom of Heaven is both ‘already’ and ‘not quite’ here on earth. In a limited sense, yes, we experience the Kingdom of Heaven already. However, it would be an exaggeration to say that we fully experience Heaven, although we have tastes of it: in the Eucharist, in the gifts of the Spirit, in the grace that we encounter and attempt to act in concert with…
What are your understandings on How the Father’s Will is done on earth?
Aah, that’s a deep question. I don’t know that there is a single answer, but Jesus’ words in the Bread of Life discourse provide a good summary:

"And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it [on] the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him [on] the last day.” (John 6:39-40)

So, I think that, on a macro level, it’s reasonable to say that the will of the Father is that all people should come to Him and be with Him in eternal life; so, we do the will of the Father when we act in a way that brings us closer to salvation… but also, when our words and actions also bring others closer to unity with God, as well. Do I always act in that way? No. When I stumble, though, I hope that I turn to God in contrition, ask forgiveness, and stand up, dust myself off, and try again…
Do you believe that during Holy Communion, we are in complete union (body, spirit, mind, and will) with God, the Holy Trinity, or the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit?
Well, I wouldn’t make such a strong statement as “we are in complete union”. Let’s remember how the Eucharist ‘works’ (if I can put it that way). The Eucharist truly is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus, present sacramentally in the physical elements of bread and wine. Therefore, there is grace present in the sacrament itself (that is, the Eucharist, by its very nature, is a means of conferring grace – the technical phrase is ex opere operato). Neither the personal holiness of the priest who confects the Eucharist nor the disposition of the person receiving the Eucharist ‘make’ the Eucharist efficacious – it confers grace, freely given by God, by virtue of the fact that it is the Eucharist.

However, it doesn’t follow that, by virtue of receiving the Eucharist, you automatically receive the grace of the sacrament. (In other words, although the Eucharist is a miracle that happens at every Mass, it isn’t magic.) A person has to be predisposed to receiving the grace in the Eucharist in order to receive the benefit of the sacrament.

(Wow… that took longer than I thought it would!)

With that in mind, then, you can see why I’d say that it isn’t necessarily true that we’re “in complete union” with God when we receive the Eucharist, right? Let’s use a thought experiment. Three of us are in line to receive Communion: you, me, and someone who has just committed murder. The murderer, who is not in a state of grace, receives communion, but is not disposed to receive the grace that the sacrament offers; certainly, he is not in union with God, even though he has received Communion – in fact, he’s committing a sacrilege by receiving while in mortal sin! I, perhaps, have committed venial sins, so I’m not perfect, but I can receive the grace offered in the sacrament in proportion to how I am predisposed (I receive some grace, and am brought closer to union with God, but it wouldn’t be accurate to say that I’m “in complete union” with God at that point). You, perhaps, have just come from Confession: you are in a state of grace, and therefore, you receive the grace of the sacrament; for that moment, you are in a certain state of union with God (although that doesn’t imply that you will necessarily remain that way – we’re human, and we sin, right?).

Sorry for the length of my answer… but you asked some deep questions, that require a bunch of up-front info in order to answer!

Blessings,

G.
 
Tonight I saw a quote for the Catechism that said "460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.“81”

In researching thes passage I have no problem with the idea of becoming “partakers of the divine nature,” but the part that states that “we might become God” worries me. Is this saying that we can one day become God’s equal or close to it; or that we will become a god in the sense that God is our God?

Please help me understand this passage. Thanks.
**Re: paragraph #460 and footnote #81, it’s from **St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4
»Enter the Catechism at this paragraph

Where is something like that mentioned in scripture? Psalm 8 refers to humans a little less than a god 5 old.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm8.htm

I also like Timothy’s response forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9570154&postcount=8
 
My understanding is though we partake in the Divine nature we will always be creatures, and will never be able to plumb the infinite depths of the creator. That is something only the Trinity will ever be able to do, as we will never ourselves become omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent because we are limited beings, and God is an unlimited being… But hey I’d be happy to just stand on the porch and look in.
 
My understanding is though we partake in the Divine nature we will always be creatures, and will never be able to plumb the infinite depths of the creator. That is something only the Trinity will ever be able to do, as we will never ourselves become omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent because we are limited beings, and God is an unlimited being… But hey I’d be happy to just stand on the porch and look in.
I think what they are trying to say is that by the Incarnation, Jesus has elevated mankind to a new level whereby we are able to partake or commune with God, in such a way that His attributes can be shared with us to a certain extent, first in this life, but more fully in the next.
 
Yes, that makes sense. My concern, though, is that some of your meditations may be leading you to expressions that aren’t in line with the way that the Church expresses her doctrine.
Thank you very much for such an enlightening post, my friend! I have thoroughly enjoyed rereading your words! You are definitely spot on with this statement! Please consider one question: Although my way of expressing may not be in line with the way the Church is expressing her doctrine, if my expressions are meaning what the Church expressions are meaning, are my understandings in alignment with Church teachings?

Regarding “Jesus is the incarnation of the Logos, the 2nd person of God.”
To redirect back to the question of the OP, in another discussion, you mentioned:
…it addresses the mystery of how Jesus, a human person, might be considered to be divine.
Is there a way to solve the mystery of how Jesus, a human person, might be considered to be divine, so that we, as human persons, might be considered to be divine? And could this be what Catechism 460 is declaring? I say yes to both.
…it’s a goal that we’ll never completely reach while living on earth…
I am in agreement, but perhaps there is a way of thinking which demonstrates now is the time we are being perfected.
The Kingdom of Heaven is both ‘already’ and ‘not quite’ here on earth.
This ties in with what I am trying to say about being perfected now.
Do I always act in that way? No. When I stumble, though, I hope that I turn to God in contrition, ask forgiveness, and stand up, dust myself off, and try again…
Your words are excellent! And I definitely give a Strong Amen to that!
Well, I wouldn’t make such a strong statement as “we are in complete union”.
I really enjoyed reading and rereading your thoughts, and I especially liked your words, “Let’s use a thought experiment.” Simply brilliant! In regards to the thought experiment as well as the Union gained from the Sacrament, please consider the following concept:
Although a person can declare the act of Holy Communion, it is only when there is complete union with God, that it is actually Holy Communion. For if it is not complete union, it is incomplete and not a union, therefore not Holy Communion, although it is still the Eucharistic Sacrament of which we receive the blessings of God. Therefore, in my previous question, I should have asked do you hold your act of Holy Communion to only Truly be Holy Communion when you are in complete union (body, spirit, mind, and will) with God, the Holy Trinity, or the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit?
Sorry for the length of my answer… but you asked some deep questions, that require a bunch of up-front info in order to answer!
No need to apologize! You are a great friend with great words! Thank you for the wonderful discussion!
 
Stop reading Matt Slick!

He misinterprets the Catechsim.

Read Grendron, hes for beginner apologetics. 😛
 
Tonight I saw a quote for the Catechism that said "460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.“81”

In researching thes passage I have no problem with the idea of becoming “partakers of the divine nature,” but the part that states that “we might become God” worries me. Is this saying that we can one day become God’s equal or close to it; or that we will become a god in the sense that God is our God?
No.

God is infinite.

Divinization means that by grace we share in the infinite divine nature and grow eternally in our resemblance to God.

The fundamental difference is that it’s a free gift of grace and not something we possess of ourselves.

Edwin
 
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