CCC always right?

[littlenothing]

I feel terrible asking this, but I need to know. Is the CCC always right in every statement and every nuance? I never questioned the Baltimore Catechism. How could you? Its pretty straight forward. But some things in the CCC leave me wondering. For example, the part about Islam. I’m on my cell phone, so it isn’t easy to quote it exactly. But do we KNOW Mohammed descended from Ishmael? Do we know it for a FACT? It isn’t just about Islam, that’s only an example. Another example is about confirmation. It says part of confirmation is to teach the young how to be a part of the Christian commu city, or something like that. That seems almost like an opinion. His does some PSR teacher know how to tell us where God might have us? Am I just being too literal? Or must I believe those things that seem like conjecture or opinion?

 

[1ke]

I feel terrible asking this, but I need to know. Is the CCC always right in every statement and every nuance?

Depends upon what you mean by “right”. It is a sure norm for teaching the faith. It comes from the Magesterium. It references documents that have various levels of inspiration, inerrancy, and Magesterial teaching that has various levels of certainty/infallibility- canon law, doctrine, dogma.

So one must understand the level of authority that the documents quoted have, and what the Church means by “sure norm”.

I never questioned the Baltimore Catechism. How could you? Its pretty straight forward.

The BC was/is not a universal catechism. It was written by the US Bishops. It makes no claim of inerrancy, nor should we treat it as such. It is a very good document, but it is what it is, a regional catechism.

But some things in the CCC leave me wondering. For example, the part about Islam. I’m on my cell phone, so it isn’t easy to quote it exactly. But do we KNOW Mohammed descended from Ishmael? Do we know it for a FACT? It isn’t just about Islam, that’s only an example.

The CCC does not state that Mohammed descended from Ishmael. Not sure where you got that.

Another example is about confirmation. It says part of confirmation is to teach the young how to be a part of the Christian commu city, or something like that. That seems almost like an opinion.

Or something like that… uh, perhaps you could give some actual specifics. The Catechism does address catechesis in preparation for Confirmation. It is not an opinion, it is a directive of the Magesterium.

His does some PSR teacher know how to tell us where God might have us? Am I just being too literal? Or must I believe those things that seem like conjecture or opinion?

I don’t understand your question.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I feel terrible asking this, but I need to know. Is the CCC always right in every statement and every nuance? I never questioned the Baltimore Catechism. How could you? Its pretty straight forward. But some things in the CCC leave me wondering. For example, the part about Islam. I’m on my cell phone, so it isn’t easy to quote it exactly. But do we KNOW Mohammed descended from Ishmael? Do we know it for a FACT? It isn’t just about Islam, that’s only an example. Another example is about confirmation. It says part of confirmation is to teach the young how to be a part of the Christian commu city, or something like that. That seems almost like an opinion. His does some PSR teacher know how to tell us where God might have us? Am I just being too literal? Or must I believe those things that seem like conjecture or opinion?

Every thing in the Catechism is to be believed at least with Religious assent and thing in it are to be believed with the assent of Faith ( Dogmas like the Assumption of Mary ). The most important Cathechism we have is the Catechism of the Catholic Church which every Catholic should have. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM . You can get a paper backed copy for about $10, which is about the cost of printing. It is the most complete Catechism we have. The Roman Catechsim is another and shorter. I’m not sure the Baltimore Catechsim has been updated since Vatican II.

When you have questions like that, always use exact references - we can’t remember everything we would like to .

Linus2nd

 

[Nita]

I feel terrible asking this, but I need to know. Is the CCC always right in every statement and every nuance? I never questioned the Baltimore Catechism. How could you? Its pretty straight forward. But some things in the CCC leave me wondering. For example, the part about Islam. I’m on my cell phone, so it isn’t easy to quote it exactly. But do we KNOW Mohammed descended from Ishmael? Do we know it for a FACT? It isn’t just about Islam, that’s only an example.

These are the only 2 sentences in the CCC about the Muslims:
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM#2G6
As you can see, it doesn’t say a single thing about who they are descended from.

 

[littlenothing]

Every thing in the Catechism is to be believed at least with Religious assent and thing in it are to be believed with the assent of Faith ( Dogmas like the Assumption of Mary ). The most important Cathechism we have is the Catechism of the Catholic Church which every Catholic should have. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM . You can get a paper backed copy for about $10, which is about the cost of printing. It is the most complete Catechism we have. The Roman Catechsim is another and shorter. I’m not sure the Baltimore Catechsim has been updated since Vatican II.

When you have questions like that, always use exact references - we can’t remember everything we would like to .

Linus2nd

You’re right about the exact refs. Perhaps as things swish around in my mind they get muddied.

 

[littlenothing]

These are the only 2 sentences in the CCC about the Muslims:
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM#2G6
As you can see, it doesn’t say a single thing about who they are descended from.

How do they know its the same one merciful God? What if it isn’t? Do we really know He is the same?

 

[littlenothing]

1ke, what is a sure norm?
What do you mean a regional catechism? I know it says Baltimore, but do you mean to say only those bishops wrote it or something else?

 

[littlenothing]

Linus, I have a copy but that was so nice of you to include a link for me. Maybe a catechism for dummies link might help!

 

[Nita]

How do they know its the same one merciful God?
What if it isn’t? Do we really know He is the same?

It’s the same because there IS only one eternal, omnipotent God who is Creator. He is the God who revealed Himself to Abraham. That is the God that we believe in, that the Jews believe in, and that the Muslims believe in.

Our knowledge about the one God varies however.

 

[littlenothing]

1ke, how can I find some exact prescription for confirmation? In other threads, people speak of being confirmed at a younger age than is common now, and seemingly no preparation. I went to a Catholic highschool, so my parish exempted me from the PSR classes. If there is some universal norm, it appears it has either changed or isn’t always followed. Why? Did it change? Must it always be class for one year every Wednesday night or something similar?

Please be patient with me, folks. I really want to know and do what is right. I want to understand what is unchangeable and what is just a matter of how things are done right now or how people think right now. I’m sorry if I am a bit irritating.

 

[littlenothing]

It’s the same because there IS only one eternal, omnipotent God who is Creator. He is the God who revealed Himself to Abraham. That is the God that we believe in, that the Jews believe in, and that the Muslims believe in.

Our knowledge about the one God varies however.

In other words, if someone from a different time and then lace thought the moon was the only and one true God, they would still be worshipping the one true God, just not understanding Him.

 

[Anthony86]

I feel terrible asking this, but I need to know. Is the CCC always right in every statement and every nuance?

The CCC is authoritative, but not it is not covered by infallibility ‘in every statement and every nuance’. Just as an example: the teaching regarding capital punishment (2267) is a prudential teaching of the Church, not infallible dogma.

 

[Nita]

In other words, if someone from a different time and then lace thought the moon was the only and one true God, they would still be worshipping the one true God, just not understanding Him.

Nope. Because they would not be worshipping the God of Abraham - the God revealed in the Old Testament.

 

[littlenothing]

The CCC is authoritative, but not it is not covered by infallibility ‘in every statement and every nuance’. Just as an example: the teaching regarding capital punishment (2267) is a prudential teaching of the Church, not infallible dogma.

Truth in a nutshell. Thank you.

 

[1ke]

1ke, what is a sure norm?

I suggest:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-catechism-of-the-catholic-church.cfm

What do you mean a regional catechism?

It is a local Catechism, written by US bishops for US Catholics.

I know it says Baltimore, but do you mean to say only those bishops wrote it or something else?

The “Baltimore” in Baltimore Catechism references the Third Council of Baltimore, a council of US bishops, at which the bishops of the US commissioned the writing of a US Catechism to be used primarily as a text for Catholic education. Six bishops wrote the catechism.

The last universal Catechism prior to the CCC commissioned by JPII was the Catechism of the Council of Trent.

 

[littlenothing]

Nope. Because they would not be worshipping the God of Abraham - the God revealed in the Old Testament.

Are you sure about that? I’ve never heard that!

 

[1ke]

Are you sure about that? I’ve never heard that!

Read what the CCC says-- it talks about our relationship with non-Christians in two distinct categories-- those worshiping the God of Abraham (Jews, Muslims) and others (i.e. Hindus, Buddhists, etc, who worship other gods and do not worship the one, true God).

 

[Michael1966]

Hi LittleNothing

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that what starts as pious speculation (faith seeking understanding) can become dogmatised over time. The Church at times seems uncomfortable with uncertainty, especially in matters of potential dispute with Protestantism. I wonder if we should regain a sense that it is OK to be uncertain, especially in matters where we are going beyond the understanding of the apostolic age. Schisms, it seems to me, lead to a temptation to want to proclaim certainty against the teaching of the ‘other side’.

Anyways, that’s just one way of seeing things.

 

[Nita]

Are you sure about that? I’ve never heard that!

??? You never heard (or were taught enough to know) that someone who worshipped the moon would not be worshipping God as revealed in the Old Testament?

 

[dmar198]

How do they know its the same one merciful God? What if it isn’t? Do we really know He is the same?

We do know that the sentence is correct as it stands because it is a quote from paragraph 16 of the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church from Vatican 2. The Council isn’t gonna be wrong. And it makes sense if you look at the history of the Church, because throughout history whenever there were groups who believed in one Creator, they were typically talked about as believing in the true God, even if they had a whole host of other errors and even if they didn’t believe in the Trinity. The Arians, the Gnostics, and even the Manicheans are examples of heretical groups that the Church considered to worship the true God because they believed in one Creator even though they had a bunch of other errors mixed up with that.

The Manicheans are a special example of this. Like Muslims, the Manicheans started in the middle east. Like Muslims, the Manicheans thought that Jesus was only a prophet. Like Muslims, the Manicheans thought that the person who started their religion was the final prophet who completed the teachings of Jesus. And like Muslims, the Church’s works against the Manicheans regard them as worshiping the one Creator but believing false things about Him. In the history of the Church, the litmus test for whether you believe in the correct God or not seems to be, do you believe in one Creator or not. Muslims pass that test, so they make it “into the club” as far as that is concerned. But that doesn’t mean they’re all set. They’ve got a bunch of serious errors about Him that need to be corrected, and that means reaching out to them with the Gospel and showing them the necessity of the Church as the sacrament of salvation.