CCC on Muslims

[kelcca]

Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.’

Hi, trying to come back to the Catholic Church but I have problems with the above and a few other beliefs. Christians and Muslims do not in my research and opinion worship the same god. Muslims do not believe in the trinity or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that salvation is through Jesus alone. So I don’t understand the above. Does the Catholic faith believe that there is salvation outside of faith and belief in Jesus?

 

[MartinJordan]

Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.’

Hi, trying to come back to the Catholic Church but I have problems with the above and a few other beliefs. Christians and Muslims do not in my research and opinion worship the same god. Muslims do not believe in the trinity or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that salvation is through Jesus alone. So I don’t understand the above. Does the Catholic faith believe that there is salvation outside of faith and belief in Jesus?

This might be of help:

catholic.com/quickquestions/how-can-allah-be-the-one-true-god

MJ

 

[Fr_Michael_Grac]

Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.’

Hi, trying to come back to the Catholic Church but I have problems with the above and a few other beliefs. Christians and Muslims do not in my research and opinion worship the same god. Muslims do not believe in the trinity or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that salvation is through Jesus alone. So I don’t understand the above. Does the Catholic faith believe that there is salvation outside of faith and belief in Jesus?

It’s worth noting that the CCC does not suggest that they worship a triune God or that there understanding of God is the same as ours, but that they acknowledge “the Creator”. They are considers foremost because they acknowledge God as the 'God of Abraham" and as such, worship the true God, even though their understanding of God is incomplete.

As for the question of Salvation the CCC states

1257 “The church does not know of any means other than baptism that **assures ** entry into eternal beatitude…God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments”

It goes on in 1259 to 1261 to explore exceptions to the necessity of baptism: catechumens, children, martyrs and (to the point of your question) one who is ignorant of the Gospel who nonetheless "seek the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it(1260). 1260 explicitly states that these people “can be saved”, this would hold open the possibility of salvation to Genuine followers of Islam, who serve God according to their understanding.

 

[ANNE_2]

Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.’
Hi, trying to come back to the Catholic Church but I have problems with the above and a few other beliefs. Christians and Muslims do not in my research and opinion worship the same god. Muslims do not believe in the trinity or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that salvation is through Jesus alone. So I don’t understand the above. Does the Catholic faith believe that there is salvation outside of faith and belief in Jesus?

Great that you are reading the CCC !
My husband and I read it just prior to returning the Catholic Church.

The CCC must be read in its entirety.

This is what you may be looking for - - -

CCC - **" **2104 All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it.
This duty derives from “the very dignity of the human person.”
It does not contradict a “sincere respect” for different religions which frequently “**reflect a ray of that truth **which enlightens all men,” nor the requirement of charity, which urges Christians "to treat with love, prudence and patience those who are in error or ignorance with regard to the faith ."

 

[Marybeloved]

This is what the Catechism says about Revelation.

**III. CHRIST JESUS – “MEDIATOR AND FULLNESS OF ALL REVELATION”**25
God has said everything in his Word
65 "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son."26 Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on *Hebrews *1:1-2:

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.27
There will be no further Revelation
66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

IN BRIEF
68 By love, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. **He has thus provided the definitive, superabundant answer to the questions that man asks himself about the meaning and purpose of his life. **
69 God has revealed himself to man by gradually communicating his own mystery in deeds and in words.
70 Beyond the witness to himself that God gives in created things, he manifested himself to our first parents, spoke to them and, after the fall, promised them salvation (cf. *Gen *3:15) and offered them his covenant.
71 God made an everlasting covenant with Noah and with all living beings (cf. *Gen *9:16). It will remain in force as long as the world lasts.
72 God chose Abraham and made a covenant with him and his descendants. By the covenant God formed his people and revealed his law to them through Moses. Through the prophets, he prepared them to accept the salvation destined for all humanity.
73 ***God has revealed himself ***fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him.

 

[Marybeloved]

You see Kelcca, the Church does not acknowledge the legitimacy of Islam at all. :shrug:What the Church does is simply recognize a fact.

The Muslim conception of God was derived from Judeo-Christian understanding and fits the description of the Judeo-Christian God- One, invisible, eternal, infinite, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent creator and judge of mankind. This means they know the true God in a very vague, hazy manner. They are further from us than the Jews, who also have not only the right conception of God but the revelations of the Prophets as well, but they are not like idolaters or polytheists. This is not legitimizing the religion but mere appreciation of a fact. So while the Church says good things about Muhammad’s innocent believers (Muslims), she clearly rejects Mohammed’s claims and “revelations” and the religion based on it as seen in the sections I quoted above.

Don’t be confused about the Church’s actual position. All words of praise are directed to the people who innocently follow Muhammad believing it to be God’s will but never to Mohammad himself or his “revelation” or Islam.

More so my friend, you should come to the church on the basis of truth. If the church is true, then you can’t pitch your own theology against hers, you must submit your own judgment to the Church because what she teaches is true regardless of whether we like it/agree with it or not. So I would advise you to study the Church’s claims about herself. If you believe them, then you submit yourself to her- That’s the difference between us and Protestants, we don’t chose for ourselves what to believe or not based on personal views of truth. :shrug:Ultimate authority on what constitutes truth in matters of faith and morals resides with the Church.

Peace!

 

[Lisa44]

1 John 4:3-6
But every spirit who does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the anti-Christ; and you have heard that he is coming, and he is already in the world now.
You are from God, little children, and you have conquered them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world. Therefore what they say is from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God. Anyone who knows God listens to us; anyone who is not from God does not listen to us. From this we know the Spirit of truth, and the spirit of deception.

This does not say anyone who confesses God, but JESUS. Who are these people that are in the world at the time this is written? They are those who deny that Jesus is God. They are already in the world. Are these people who deny Jesus is God, are they from God? No, they are from the world. Which do you listen to, the Spirit of truth (who is the Holy Spirit) or the spirit of deception?

If you have any doubt about who this anti-christ is than read on:

John 4:7-19
Dear friends, let us love oneanother, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love. God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent His One and Only Son into the world so that we might live through him. Love consists in this: not that we loved God but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Dear friends, if God loved us in this way, we also must love oneanother. No one has ever seen God. If we love oneanother, God remains in us and His love is perfected in us.
This is how we know that we remain in Him and He in us: He has given to us from His Spirit. And we have seen and we testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God - God remains in him and he in God.

Now, if you are confused, and I don’t know how a Christian could be confused about this but, if you are uncertain of what 1 John says then lets look at history. 1 John says the one who does not love does not know God.

And the CCC says the Muslims know God right? So then they must love.

Let’s look at Islam. They are the only religion on the planet, that i am aware of, that allows old men to marry children. The age of 9, the age that Muhammad de-flowered Aisha was when she was age 9. Therefore men are allowed to take child brides at age 9.

Is that LOVE? Yes or no?

Islam allows men to take up to 4 wives. A man can go out any day of the week and bring home another wife, without his current wife having any say in the matter. Now I ask you? Is that LOVE?

A man in Islam can divorce his wife by saying three times “I divorce you”. Is that LOVE?

How about the killing of infidels? Is that LOVE?

No, none of these things are LOVE and that is why they do not have LOVE is because they DENY the ONE and ONLY SAVIOR.

There is ONLY ONE JUDGE.

If you deny God, then there is no love in you. Because how can you say that these things that people do are from love? If you say that pedophilia is love, and killing infidels is love then YOU are the one who does not have God in you.

Why don’t you stand up for what is right? Do you not have any love in you?

 

[rossum]

Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.’

Hi, trying to come back to the Catholic Church but I have problems with the above and a few other beliefs. Christians and Muslims do not in my research and opinion worship the same god. Muslims do not believe in the trinity or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that salvation is through Jesus alone. So I don’t understand the above. Does the Catholic faith believe that there is salvation outside of faith and belief in Jesus?

Jews also do not believe in the trinity or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that salvation is through Jesus alone. Do Jews worship the same God as Christians? If your answer is yes, then surely the same answer applies to Muslims as well.

rossum

 

[kelcca]

Can someone show me where the Church clearly rejects Islam? Yes Jews worship the same God as Christians, but they do not accept Jesus or the old Testament prophesies foretelling Jesus. In my opinion Islam is a totally false religion and I can not see how they and Christians worship the same God. The main goal of Islam is to bring the world under Shari’ah law and to convert all unbelievers. They do not worship the same God as us, as our God and Jesus is the same person, the God of the Old Testament and New Testament are the same person and they see Jesus as only a prophet so therefore they do not worship the God of the Old Testament. This is obvious in there hatred of non-believers, Jews and Christians.
I am struggling and would love to come back to the Church, I was raised RC but left to become Pentecostal, now I fell a pull back to the Church after studding the Church Fathers. If I asked a Pentecostal pastor about Islam the answer would be short and to the point, “They are a false religion who don’t accept Jesus therefore they are not saved” , simple. This is what they would say about all non-christian religions. So why is the Catholic Church not as straight forward, there seems to always be a sense of to much political correctness, scared to hurt unbelievers feelings, scared to proclaim the truth.

Thank you for all your reply’s. help and patience!

 

[rossum]

“They are a false religion who don’t accept Jesus therefore they are not saved” , simple.

Is your Pentecostalist pastor’s God so weak that His power to save is limited by the speed at which Christian missionaries could travel the world? Could his God save Australians before the first Christian missionaries arrived there? What of Native Americans before Columbus? Could the Pentecostalist God save them? The Catholic God could. I know which God I think is the more powerful and the more merciful.

rossum

 

[kelcca]

John 14:6

New International Version (NIV)

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

No one, not Jews, Muslims, pagan native Americans. No one is saved unless they believe in Jesus and Jesus alone. Who do you think Jesus was preaching to ? JEWS! He out right told them to believe in him and only him for eternal life.

 

[kelcca]

If there is salvation outside of faith in Jesus then this makes his death and resurrection pointless. It makes the whole New and Old Testament irrelevant. It makes Jesus a lier!

 

[hn160]

If there is salvation outside of faith in Jesus then this makes his death and resurrection pointless. It makes the whole New and Old Testament irrelevant. It makes Jesus a lier!

You are right on. Too many want to be politically correct and not want to tell people of other non-Christian faiths that they will go to Hell. Christ said that no one comes to the Father except through Him.

 

[Fr_Michael_Grac]

Hold on people, an look at what the church teaches. She, the only institution with the authority to teach on these matters, states explicitly in an ecumenical council of the church, that those who are ignorant of the Gospel, but otherwise try and serve God as best they understand him can be saved.

They are not saved ‘apart from Jesus’ but through an invisible connection with him, one that they are unaware of. Jesus’ death and resurrection is the only means of salvation, not only for Christians but for our Jewish ancestors in faith. It is his death which holds out the promise of salvation. It is God’s will that all men be saved! Those who are not saved, are lost, not because of some circumstance beyond their control (i.e. no one ever preached the gospel to them) but because of their own sinfulness.

Who are we to question the teaching of the Church?

However, as I pointed out before, only baptism assures salvation, thus the church should (and does) teach the necessity of baptism for salvation. Those who knowingly reject baptism or through sloth or for other reason fail to peruse it when they ought to have, face the very real danger of Hell. On can uphold church teaching and still speak strongly on the topic.

 

[Fr_Michael_Grac]

Is your Pentecostalist pastor’s God so weak that His power to save is limited by the speed at which Christian missionaries could travel the world? Could his God save Australians before the first Christian missionaries arrived there? What of Native Americans before Columbus? Could the Pentecostalist God save them? The Catholic God could. I know which God I think is the more powerful and the more merciful.

rossum

This exaclty!

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Can someone show me where the Church clearly rejects Islam? Yes Jews worship the same God as Christians, but they do not accept Jesus or the old Testament prophesies foretelling Jesus. In my opinion Islam is a totally false religion and I can not see how they and Christians worship the same God. The main goal of Islam is to bring the world under Shari’ah law and to convert all unbelievers. They do not worship the same God as us, as our God and Jesus is the same person, the God of the Old Testament and New Testament are the same person and they see Jesus as only a prophet so therefore they do not worship the God of the Old Testament. This is obvious in there hatred of non-believers, Jews and Christians.
I am struggling and would love to come back to the Church, I was raised RC but left to become Pentecostal, now I fell a pull back to the Church after studding the Church Fathers. If I asked a Pentecostal pastor about Islam the answer would be short and to the point, “They are a false religion who don’t accept Jesus therefore they are not saved” , simple. This is what they would say about all non-christian religions. So why is the Catholic Church not as straight forward, there seems to always be a sense of to much political correctness, scared to hurt unbelievers feelings, scared to proclaim the truth.

Thank you for all your reply’s. help and patience!

To start off there are two issues, one religion the other people.

There are teaching of the Catholic Church that would apply to the religion of islam. One is Jesus Christ taught all truths necessary for salvation to the Apostles. Private revelaton ended with the death of John the Apostle. So there is no private revelation giving after the Apostle that includes all religions that have a vision of an angel like islam and Mormonism or encounters with aliens like Raëlism. Basically one of the belief in islam is that all prior religion were allowed by allah to be corrupted and it’s the final version. And as a Christian you know that is not true. God didn’t send His only Begotten Son only to be replaced by muhammed.

Take any issue, and event in history there are four groups of people those for, those against, and those who know about it but are indifferent to it, and those for whatever reason are ignorant or unknowing of it. I’m sure that if one looks at people who claim to be muslim they would either be for or against or indifferent to Christianity. There are muslims who by the grace of God convert to Christianity and others who are vehemently opposed to Christianity, and still some muslims who know very little and care even less…

All the teachings of the gospel apply welcome the person who converts from islam to Christianity, if they hate you pray for our enemies, if some one was tinkering with islam and was deciding to be a muslim and asks your advices, do your best to explain the inherent problems of islam but understand they have a free will, they might be your friend they might not.

 

[jonbhorton]

Is your Pentecostalist pastor’s God so weak that His power to save is limited by the speed at which Christian missionaries could travel the world? Could his God save Australians before the first Christian missionaries arrived there? What of Native Americans before Columbus? Could the Pentecostalist God save them? The Catholic God could. I know which God I think is the more powerful and the more merciful.

rossum

You’re confusing chronology of the Faith’s spread with what is applicable NOW.

It is well established what the Church’s standpoint is on such examples, both in doctrine and Scripture.

However, Muslims specifically REJECT Jesus as the Messiah. Ergo, if they hear the Gospel and reject it until death and whatever period/events happen between “death” and true sealing of their eternal fate- yeah, they most definitely go to Hell according to Scripture and doctrine.

Do I think God will send to Hell some little urchin in the streets of Karachi, Pakistan or BFE, Afghanistan if they never heard the Gospel? Not outright, but I’m sure there will be a litmus test for entrance into Heaven- what did they do with the Law God wrote on their hearts? What about some little pygmy in Africa who never saw a missionary in his life? Same. What about someone in Yemen in a little village who has only been to the other dirty, poor village a few miles over? Same.

Now, what about Muslims in this day and age who have massive access to Christian resources, doctrine, teaching, etc?

Well, if they ignore the Holy Spirit’s pleas to become a Christian, and continue to reject Christ as the Messiah, they’re going to Hell. I’m not judging, I’m just going off of what Jesus Himself said, the various epistles say, and what Revelation says.

Furthermore, the Hebrew plainly points to a Triune God in the very Tanakh and its word usage regarding God. Elohim = plural; only way to get plural in semitic languages is via 3 or more. Adonai = again, plural; literally “my Lords”. Proverbs 8, plainly talks about Jesus as being part of God, but also distinct within the Trinity if you just look at what’s being said. Etc. Verses 30-36 are rabidly “New Testament” in their tone and in the context of the preceding verses can ONLY refer to Jesus.

The modern Jewish rejection of God in a Triune concept is just that, modern. The language, the ancient language, however, describes perfectly well when we just understand what it’s actually saying. Elohim becomes a title, great. But linguistically, it’s plural indicating unison in thought and action. Adonai, same.

Edit to add:

If you really think about it, islam is a sure ticket to Hell to begin with. It categorically rejects Christ, after the revelation of Christ, having been exposed to the Gospel. Your original arguments were founded in the concept of global chronological processes being equal with the objective chronology. Islam, in itself, is rectifiable within both. In fact, islam spread, largely in the Byzantine empire, through the outright rejection of ALL Christian dogma, because of having heard a false version of the Truth. Some of the most venerated cities in islam, including ones in Iraq, were Catholic strongholds. the city of my first deployment, Samarra, was actually a monastic town prior to islam. You will not find Christianity there today. Neither will you find anything other than a mosque over the site of a church St. Polycarp helped pastor or establish. It seeks, at every twist and turn, to supplant Christianity and murder our Jewish brethren. It is, by definition, antiChrist.

 

[LoyalChristian]

Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.’

Hi, trying to come back to the Catholic Church but I have problems with the above and a few other beliefs. Christians and Muslims do not in my research and opinion worship the same god. Muslims do not believe in the trinity or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that salvation is through Jesus alone. So I don’t understand the above. Does the Catholic faith believe that there is salvation outside of faith and belief in Jesus?

As a Christian, I can understand why The Church says this. We also need to understand that Christians in other countries are being persecuted and killed.

 

[ringil]

You’re confusing chronology of the Faith’s spread with what is applicable NOW.

It is well established what the Church’s standpoint is on such examples, both in doctrine and Scripture.

However, Muslims specifically REJECT Jesus as the Messiah. Ergo, if they hear the Gospel and reject it until death and whatever period/events happen between “death” and true sealing of their eternal fate- yeah, they most definitely go to Hell according to Scripture and doctrine.

Do I think God will send to Hell some little urchin in the streets of Karachi, Pakistan or BFE, Afghanistan if they never heard the Gospel? Not outright, but I’m sure there will be a litmus test for entrance into Heaven- what did they do with the Law God wrote on their hearts? What about some little pygmy in Africa who never saw a missionary in his life? Same. What about someone in Yemen in a little village who has only been to the other dirty, poor village a few miles over? Same.

Now, what about Muslims in this day and age who have massive access to Christian resources, doctrine, teaching, etc?

Well, if they ignore the Holy Spirit’s pleas to become a Christian, and continue to reject Christ as the Messiah, they’re going to Hell. I’m not judging, I’m just going off of what Jesus Himself said, the various epistles say, and what Revelation says.

Furthermore, the Hebrew plainly points to a Triune God in the very Tanakh and its word usage regarding God. Elohim = plural; only way to get plural in semitic languages is via 3 or more. Adonai = again, plural; literally “my Lords”. Proverbs 8, plainly talks about Jesus as being part of God, but also distinct within the Trinity if you just look at what’s being said. Etc. Verses 30-36 are rabidly “New Testament” in their tone and in the context of the preceding verses can ONLY refer to Jesus.

The modern Jewish rejection of God in a Triune concept is just that, modern. The language, the ancient language, however, describes perfectly well when we just understand what it’s actually saying. Elohim becomes a title, great. But linguistically, it’s plural indicating unison in thought and action. Adonai, same.

Edit to add:

If you really think about it, islam is a sure ticket to Hell to begin with. It categorically rejects Christ, after the revelation of Christ, having been exposed to the Gospel. Your original arguments were founded in the concept of global chronological processes being equal with the objective chronology. Islam, in itself, is rectifiable within both. In fact, islam spread, largely in the Byzantine empire, through the outright rejection of ALL Christian dogma, because of having heard a false version of the Truth. Some of the most venerated cities in islam, including ones in Iraq, were Catholic strongholds. the city of my first deployment, Samarra, was actually a monastic town prior to islam. You will not find Christianity there today. Neither will you find anything other than a mosque over the site of a church St. Polycarp helped pastor or establish. It seeks, at every twist and turn, to supplant Christianity and murder our Jewish brethren. It is, by definition, antiChrist.

You seem to know a lot about the specific in’s and out’s of the afterlife. Most of us admit that we cannot know the mind of God and comprehend His infinite Mercy.

Perhaps the highly concrete and specific nature of your belief system in this area gives you a sense of security.

 

[Luvtosew]

I really have a hard time thinking that Muslims believe in the same God as us. Their God has left Jesus out of him, and the way we came to know God is throughr Jesus, so I just don’t think their idea of God is the same as ours.

If it were not for Jesus and we just had the OT , I would think what a mean God we have , the way I felt when I first read the OT.

Just my opinion.