Celebrate Recovery

[Sufjon]

And as PR is explaining Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli would qualify as heretics.

I think that every person is bound to follow what their best judgement tells them based on what information they have available to them and their ability to understand. God did not give the gift of vision and reason not knowing what we might see. And Saint Peter said that he didn’t suppose that God plays favorites, but that in any nation someone who does what they reason is best is acceptable to God. We all see things in what way we are able, and this is inherent in our design, and the designer is God. To label someone a heretic only diminishes the person using the term. If your faith is sound, it should stand on it’s own without making judgement on the faith of others. Your will bear itself out on it’s own merit.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Faith1960]

I am not disputing your mental illness. You have pointed out that you are not addicted and that is not your problem to contend with. The focus as been on addiction, CR, 12 steps and for some reason you find solace in these programs…

No, I never said that I find solace in them I said I’ve tried going to them.

 

[Faith1960]

It is you that has said it and why do you call me thus…

On this thread you said both this: <<<<<<<<<<<< I am the type of Physician that provides information, ask that others I speak to research on their own and find what they can do to get them going towards something that works. I have an opinion, my opinions are information based on knoweldge, training, experience and it appears that you have lots of experience and are doing something. >>>>>>>>>>

And this: <<<<<<<<
I am the type of Physician that provides information, ask that others I speak to research on their own and find what they can do to get them going towards something that works. I have an opinion, my opinions are information based on knoweldge, training, experience and it appears that you have lots of experience and are doing something. >>>>>>>>>>

 

[CopticChristian]

On this thread you said both this: <<<<<<<<<<<< I am the type of Physician that provides information, ask that others I speak to research on their own and find what they can do to get them going towards something that works. I have an opinion, my opinions are information based on knoweldge, training, experience and it appears that you have lots of experience and are doing something. >>>>>>>>>>

And this: <<<<<<<<
I am the type of Physician that provides information, ask that others I speak to research on their own and find what they can do to get them going towards something that works. I have an opinion, my opinions are information based on knoweldge, training, experience and it appears that you have lots of experience and are doing something. >>>>>>>>>>

And thus it is true.

 

[PRmerger]

And as PR is explaining Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli would qualify as heretics.

Actually, Coptic, I believe they proclaimed heresies, but as to calling them heretics, well, I have a hard time doing that.

If Holy Mother Church, in her wisdom, saw fit to call them that, then I defer to them. (And if anyone here has anything from the Magisterium that has declared them to be heretics, I would be quite interested to read those references.)

However, for me to call them heretics, independent of the Church, would be for me to know that they were willfully and obdurately rejecting a truth. And I cannot say that I know that they were willful and obdurate.

 

[Castello]

How, IYO, would we become Protestant by going to CB meetings held at a Catholic parish?

A Catholic Parish would want to have a group that is based on solid Catholic teaching - as has been posted on here before, soberforchrist.com/ is a Catholic group

 

[JMShermanEsq]

In the context of 12 steps, AA, Celebrate Recovery…all have to do with the false notion that alcoholism is a disease…

Celebrate Recovery does NOT teach that alcoholism is a disease.

I invite you to attend a Celebrate Recovery meeting close to you and see if your contempt prior to investigation is misplaced. Here is a link to a list of CR meetings in Arizona: celebraterecovery.com/?page_id=62

Blessings!

 

[CopticChristian]

Actually, Coptic, I believe they proclaimed heresies, but as to calling them heretics, well, I have a hard time doing that.

If Holy Mother Church, in her wisdom, saw fit to call them that, then I defer to them. (And if anyone here has anything from the Magisterium that has declared them to be heretics, I would be quite interested to read those references.)

However, for me to call them heretics, independent of the Church, would be for me to know that they were willfully and obdurately rejecting a truth. And I cannot say that I know that they were willful and obdurate.

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

CONDEMNING THE ERRORS OF MARTIN LUTHER
Exsurge Domine

Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520

Therefore we can, without any further citation or delay, proceed against him to his condemnation and damnation as one whose faith is notoriously suspect and in fact a
true heretic with the full severity of each and all of the above penalties and censures. Yet, with the advice of our brothers, imitating the mercy of almighty God who does not wish the death of a sinner but rather that he be converted and live, and forgetting all the injuries inflicted on us and the Apostolic See, we have decided to use all the compassion we are capable of. It is our hope, so far as in us lies, that he will experience a change of heart by taking the road of mildness we have proposed, return, and turn away from his errors. We will receive him kindly as the prodigal son returning to the embrace of the Church.

Martin Luther…

 

[PRmerger]

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

CONDEMNING THE ERRORS OF MARTIN LUTHER
Exsurge Domine

Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520

Martin Luther…

Then I have no problem calling Martin Luther a heretic. :sad_yes:

 

[CopticChristian]

Celebrate Recovery does NOT teach that alcoholism is a disease.

I invite you to attend a Celebrate Recovery meeting close to you and see if your contempt prior to investigation is misplaced. Here is a link to a list of CR meetings in Arizona: celebraterecovery.com/?page_id=62

Blessings!

“Celebrate Recovery”…lets see. Addiction is a disease you recover from. Well what kind of a disease is it? It is a spiritual disease. Say What? Now if we are celebrating recovery then are we not foolishly falling into the paradigm by celebrating what you recover from…For the only way to be able to speak of recovery is if you speak of addiction and if you speak of addiction then you speak of disease and that is all 12 step mumbo jumbo balooney jargon…to get people to believe that they have to “revcover” from something that is a spritual disease whatever that means…

Celebrate I can tolerate. Recovery???

Why not just call the program celebrate? Because then the attraction of those that it is trying to attract would falter!!!

 

[CopticChristian]

Celebrate Recovery does NOT teach that alcoholism is a disease.

I invite you to attend a Celebrate Recovery meeting close to you and see if your contempt prior to investigation is misplaced. Here is a link to a list of CR meetings in Arizona: celebraterecovery.com/?page_id=62

Blessings!

I really do not believe that it would be in the interest of this organization to have me visit.

A purusal of the list of meetings is that they are all at Protestant ecclesial communities…hummmmmmm!!!

 

[kirkdickinson]

Celebrate Recovery does NOT teach that alcoholism is a disease.

I invite you to attend a Celebrate Recovery meeting close to you and see if your contempt prior to investigation is misplaced. Here is a link to a list of CR meetings in Arizona: celebraterecovery.com/?page_id=62

Blessings!

I think you will find that there are a couple of people here that find contempt in the program, not because they have any first hand experience, but because the program did not originate in Rome.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think you will find that there are a couple of people here that find contempt in the program, not because they have any first hand experience, but because the program did not originate in Rome.

You are wrong. Contempt is not for the Program. I have contempt for the Protestatnt/Baptist paradigm that this program professes to garner converts. These are people at their weakest. There is no need for the program to originate in Rome. I am not sure if you understand that there is no other Program. The program satisfies what the paradigm professes and if there was a need for a program it would not have to originate in Rome it would only need approval from Rome…you are wrong…

 

[CopticChristian]

I think you will find that there are a couple of people here that find contempt in the program, not because they have any first hand experience, but because the program did not originate in Rome.

I have seen Crosses, burning crosses, white robes, people claiming to be Christian in the South,called the KKK. I don’t have to experience it to know I don’t want to be part of it.

You are stuck in empiricism. You don’t have to experience homosesuality to know you don’t want any part of it. You don’t have to know what it is like to be beaten to know you don’t want to be beaten. Do you believe that you have to experience Cocaine, Heroin, Methamphetamine to know you will not try it or use it…Do you believe you have to experience everything to render an intelligent, informed, educated decision?

I am intelligent, educated, informed and when I testified in court when I rendedered an opinion I would say “this opinion is based on knowledge, training and experience”…my opinion was never based on experience alone. This is the definition of an “expert” opinion.

If you want an opinion you can get one from anyone. If you want an expert opinion look for
knoweldge, training and experience.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think you will find that there are a couple of people here that find contempt in the program, not because they have any first hand experience, but because the program did not originate in Rome.

Perspective is everything. I believe a little education would be in order.

1. Frank Buchman was the founder of Moral Rearmament a forerunner of the Oxford Group a forerunner of AA. Read about Frank at the following.

search.time.com/results.html?N=0&Nty=1&p=0&cmd=tags&srchCat=Full+Archive&Ntt=frank+buchman

1. AA is a religion…2,3,7th United States Court of Appeals has ruled that AA is a religion and it would appear the CR satisfies that premise.

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT​

No. 1760------August Term, 1994
(Argued: July 20, 1995 Decided: September 9, 1996)
Docket No. 95-7055​

---

ROBERT WARNER,
Plaintiff-Appellee,
v.
ORANGE COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF PROBATION,
Defendant-Appellant.

Resolving questions as to the reach of the Establishment Clause “of necessity [requires] line-drawing, . . . determining at what point a dissenter’s rights of religious freedom are infringed by the State.” Id. at 2661. We have little difficulty concluding that the constitutional line was crossed here.

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE THIRD CIRCUIT
No. 99-4013
HENRY RAUSER,
Appellant
v.
MARTIN HORN, in his official capacity as Commissioner
of the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections;
WILLIAM F. WARD, in his official capacity as
Chairman of the Penna. Board of Parole
On Appeal From the United States District Court
for the Western District of Pennsylvania

After completing a related religious substance abuse program known as the “New Values Ten Week Twelve-Step Lecture,” Rauser objected to continuing in AA/NA on the basis of his own religious beliefs. In spite of this objection, the DOC refused to consider recommending Rauser for parole unless he participated in AA or NA. The DOC did not offer Rauser a non-religious alternative to these programs until after he filed the complaint in this action.

In the United States Court of Appeals For the Seventh Circuit

No. 95-1843

JAMES W. KERR,
Plaintiff-Appellant,
v.
CATHERINE J. FARREY and LLOYD LIND,
Defendants-Appellees.

Although it has been clear for many years that the state may not coerce people to participate in religious programs, see Barnette (1943), Torcaso (1961), and Engel (1962), the particular application of this principle to prisons has arisen only recently in the courts. See Matter of David Griffin, Warner, and O’Connor, supra.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think you will find that there are a couple of people here that find contempt in the program, not because they have any first hand experience, but because the program did not originate in Rome.

So having read about Frank Buchman and AA and understanding that AA is a religion, the question is what kind of religion? It is a form of Methodism.

              12 Step Programs. Today, they are rampant.  Alcoholics

Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, etc. If something has ever been a
problem for someone, there is probably a 12 step program somewhere
that is intended to help.

Below is a description of a 12 step program that has been re-revised to
reflect a Biblical standard. I submit this to you with the
understanding that it is denominational in its origin and will
undoubtable have terminology that is not scriptural and that it will
very probably have passages misapplied. Nevertheless, there is a good
bit of “meat” in it for those who truly desire to serve the Lord.

***** Permission to reproduce was granted*****************

Prepared by Dr. Gary R. Sweeten & Hal B. Schell c1989 Christ Information
Committee, Inc. P.0. Box 24080. Cincinnati, Ohio 45224

Following a tradition of the early church and the Wesley revival, the
Oxford Group systematized a series of “steps” as a process of cleansing
one’s inner life. These “steps” were later adapted by Alcoholics
Anonymous, with much of the Christian basis ignored. They are here
re-adapted emphasizing this great Christian base so integral to the
wholeness sought. Here the center of wholeness is recognized as the
Lord Jesus Christ. The “steps” have also been changed to conform to
other principles at discipleship and Christian growth. If a Christian
will vigorously apply these principles, and make these decisions, that
person will move toward “Teleios”-Wholeness in Christ.

1. I now see that I, of myself, am powerless, unable to control (manage)
   my life by myself.

Romans 7-8 Romans 7:16-19 Psalm 32:3-7 Romans 3:9-10 Romans 3:23

1. I now realize that my Creator, God the Father Son, and Holy Spirit,
   can restore me to wholeness in Christ.

Psalm 27:4-5 Mark 10:26-27 Philippians 2:13 Romans 8:9 Ezekiel 36:27

1. I now make a conscious decision to turn my entire will and life over
   to the care and direction of Jesus Christ as Teacher, Healer, Savior and
   Lord.

Joshua 1:6-9 Jeremiah 29:11-14 Jeremiah 32:27 John 14:6 John 10:30 Mark
10.?7 Matthew 28:18, 20b

1. Having made this decision, I now obey God’s call in Scripture to make
   a fearless ethical, moral, and scriptural inventory of my entire life in
   order to uncover all sins, mistakes, and character defects. and to make
   a written list of every item uncovered.

Psalm 139:23-24 Lamentations 3:40 Jeremiah 23:24 Romans 8:26-27

1. After completing this inventory I will now will to “walk in the
   light, as He is in the light” by admitting to myself, to God. and to at
   least one other person in Christ the exact nature of these wrongs.

1 John 1:7 Ephesians 6:13-14 Psalm 119:9-11 1 Timothy 1:15 Acts 13:38-39
James 5:13-l6 Hebrews 9:14 Acts 2:37-38

1. Having agreed with God about my sinful behavior, I now ask His
   forgiveness through Christ and openly acknowledge that I am forgiven
   according to the Scripture.

I John 1:8-9 James 4:10 1 John 2:1-2 Psalms 27:13-14 Psalms 110:18, then
17

1. I now repent (turn away) from all these behaviors in thought, word,
   and deed and ask God to remove each besetting sin, through Jesus
   Christ.

John 5:14 John 8:10-11 Job 11:13-19 Ezekiel 18:30-32 Romans 5-6 Romans
12:1-2 1 John 2:3-6 2 Corinthians 10:5 Colossians 3:17

1. I now make a list of all persons I have harmed in thought, word, and
   deed and a list of all persons I believe have harmed me, and will to
   make amends to all of them.

Ephesians 4:29-32 Hosea 11:1-4 Ephesians 5:1-2 Luke 6:31 Matthew 5:43-44
Matthew 18:15 Leviticus 19:17-18 Mark 12:31 Matthew 5:9

1. I now go directly to these persons to forgive and to seek
   forgiveness, reconciliation restitution, or release whenever and with
   whomever possible, unless to do so would cause further harm.

Matthew 5:23-24 Isaiah 1:15-20

1. I now; consciously and prayerfully continue to “walk In the light”
   by unceasingly taking personal inventory of all my temptations and sins,
   and by keeping a constantly open relationship with God, myself, and
   other persons.

Matthew 26:41 James 1:13-15 Matthew 6:11-13 Colossians 3:13 Proverbs
30:8-9 Ephesians 5:15-18 Psalms 4:3-5 Psalms 55:22 1 Peter 5:6-7
Ephesians 4:22-28

1. I now continue in regular Scripture, study, prayer, worship and
   fellowship to increase God’s will in my life.

Acts 2:42 Mark 12:28-33 Matthew 6:33 Psalms 89:15 Joshua 1:6 1 Kings
8:68*61 Colossians 3:12-17

1. Recognizing the impact of God in my life, I now intentionally share
   these principles and their effect with others as God’s Spirit leads, and
   will practice these principles in all areas of my life.

Micah 6:8 Ephesians 5:8 Psalms 40:8-10 Galatians 5:1 Revelation 12:1 2
Corinthians 3:17 Ephesians 6:10-18

 

[CopticChristian]

I think you will find that there are a couple of people here that find contempt in the program, not because they have any first hand experience, but because the program did not originate in Rome.

Another view of Methodism for compare and contrast with the aforementioned and Methodism in its formula. Compare and contrast that with CR. There is nothing new under the sun.

The Methodist Method
The members of the Oxford Holy Club were called Methodists because they practiced methods of holiness. These methods were fitted together “to make overcomers”. The significance of the method is very important, because it is “the method to Christian perfection”. John Wesley (the founder of Methodism) taught that “a Methodist is one that lives according to the method laid down in the Bible”.
These are the methods of holiness used by the Oxford Holy Club and the early Methodists.
“WWJD?” (from John Wesley’s diary)
“Whenever you are to do an action, consider how God did or would do the like, and do you imitate His example.”
General Rules as to Intention (from John Wesley’s diary)

1. In every act reflect on the end.
2. Begin every action in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
3. Begin every important work with prayer.
4. Do not leave off a duty because you are tempted to do it.
   General Rules for Employing time (from John Wesley’s diary)
5. Begin and end every day with God; sleep not immoderately.
6. Be diligent in your calling.
7. Employ all spare hours in religion, as able.
8. And all holidays (holy days).
9. Avoid drunkards and busybodies.
10. Avoid curiosity, and all useless employments and knowledge.
11. Examine yourself every night.
12. Never on any account pass a day without setting aside at least an hour for devotion.
13. Avoid all manner of passion.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think you will find that there are a couple of people here that find contempt in the program, not because they have any first hand experience, but because the program did not originate in Rome.

Continued…

1. Avoid all manner of passion.

I found a great many unclean thoughts arise in prayer or devotion, and discovered these temptations to it:

1. Too much addicting myself to light behaviour at all times.
2. Listening too much to idle talk, or reading vain plays or books.
3. Idleness, and lastly want of devotion, from which I perceive it is necessary:
   a. To labour for grave and modest carriage;
   b. To avoid vain and light company; and
   c. To entertain awful apprehensions of the presence of God.
   d. To avoid idleness, freedom with women and high seasoned meats;
   e. To resist the very beginnings of lust, not by arguing with them, but by thinking no more of it or by immediately going into company; lastly
   f. To use frequent and fervent prayer.

Spiritual Pulse Taking
Daily examination of conscience; a sample of the questions one would ask oneself:

1. Did I in the morning plan the business of the day?
2. Have I been simple and recollected in everything?
3. Have I been or seemed angry?
4. Have I prayed once an hour?
   Temperance
   The Oxford Methodists would practice temperance when eating. A list of rules from Wesley’s Diary:

As to Temperance, I resolve in eating,

1. Taste only of two flesh meals.
2. Only one slice of each.
3. At each meal, fix your quantity before you taste.
4. If possible help yourself last.
5. When I have port, only port and water.
6. Before you sit at full table, pray for help.
7. In company, only a cheese and roots.
8. After any excess, abridge the next meal.
9. Only three dishes of tea in the afternoon.
10. When sugar or cream in afternoon, no bread and butter.

Evidently the significance of this method of holiness would be that Wesley practiced control of the “flesh” through a written agreement he had with himself when he was not affected by emotion. He uses logic to determine what will be eaten before he will taste it and then get carried away. This written set of rules provides self control.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think you will find that there are a couple of people here that find contempt in the program, not because they have any first hand experience, but because the program did not originate in Rome.

continued…

Receiving Grace
You can only receive the grace of God while it is available. Recognized ways to make yourself available to the grace of God or the “means of grace” would include:

1. Prayer
2. Bible reading
3. Communion
4. Worship
5. Service
6. Practice a method of holiness

Having a pure love of God is the basis for Christian perfection which John Wesley taught. Putting faith into practice is the follow through. The General Rules continue to be the general rules today.

Accountability According to Grace Received
The Oxford Methodist would practice their religion in small groups using Dr. Horneck’s Rules for Religious Societies. The significance of this method of holiness was the spiritual fellowship bond that can only come from small groups and was something practiced by Christians since the first century, designed to “Flee the Wrath to Come” by watching over one another under the direction of a group leader. The group leader reports to his superiors the condition of his group members. A code of conduct is provided so members can give an account of their obedience.
To better understand how these methods of holiness worked together, let’s start with where they started. The entry point to the Methodist Societies was the Methodist Class Society. This was an open meeting and if someone was drawn to Methodism by prevenient grace one would start by visiting a “class”. Historically, on average after 2-3 years of meeting in a class society people would experience justifying grace and would desire to move onward. This next accountability step was the Methodist Band Society. This was a small circle of 4-6 people grouped according to age, marital status, and sex. These groups were designed to draw people close to one another and though accountability and prayer bring healing from the consequences of sin. The design of this meeting was based on James 5:16: “Confess your faults to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed”
Those who became leaders and would desire to go on to perfection in sanctifying grace might also be “selected” by John Wesley to enter the “Select Society”. This was a group that John Wesley would himself attend till at least the age of 85. Backsliders also had a place. The no one left behind attitude produced a special meeting called the Penitent Society, conducted on Saturday nights, apart from the Class and Band meetings usually held on Thursday nights.

1. Continuous Diaries
   The significance of this “Method of Holiness” is that the diary served as a tool for self examination, and included blessings, sins, detailed accounts of daily activities, books read, conversations with other Methodists, means of grace observed, including prayer time, and devotions, including an intensity gauge for many of the entries. Every hour of the day the Oxford Methodist would update the diary.
2. Comparing Diaries
   The Oxford Methodists did not stop with keeping a continuous religious diary. To put oneself on a path to greater holiness they would compare and evaluate each others diaries. A secret code prohibited outsiders from understanding the diaries, insuring privacy, so the only people who could participate in the diary swapping were the Methodists. The significance of this method of holiness is sharing diaries provided the Oxford Methodist with a high degree of accountability.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think you will find that there are a couple of people here that find contempt in the program, not because they have any first hand experience, but because the program did not originate in Rome.

continued…

1. One on One Discipling
   The Oxford Methodist would meet one on one with John Wesley for discipling. The significance of this method of holiness showed both the dedication that Wesley had for each person in his care and the time invested in each and every one.
2. Weekly Home Visits
   The Group leader would visit each member in their home for the purpose of instruction, prayer, Bible reading and to provide the member the opportunity to practice confession, repentance, and accountability. Because of interference from family members, this Method of Holiness was replaced with meeting in groups, with other members of the “Class” society.
3. Group and Individual Society Meeting (Class Society)
   The members of a Methodist Class Society would come together with their group leader once a week for worship, prayer, Bible reading, and instruction, then each member would meet with the group leader separately for confession, repentance, and accountability.
4. Accountability with a group leader (Class Society)
   Each member of this method of holiness would give his or her account of that week with a reply from the group leader to each in turn. This was the entry point to Methodism that comes from the General Rules of the Societies. Usually a group of 12 persons, men and women various ages and stages in life. Prevenient grace was the spiritual level these persons were primarily ministered to; however in later years of Methodism, they were blended with those who had received justifying grace.
   The group leader would reply to each group member, but evidently a “no crosstalk format” was employed. This would mean that there would not be conversation between group members, which was a more user friendly way to conduct a group meeting for beginners. This eases the tension that may arise from dreading questions or comments from others (not qualified to ask) that might embarrass.
   An example we could easily relate to would be’ prayer circle where each person prays in turn but others do not respond by asking questions of the person who prayed. So with this method each person would offer his or her state of mind and the group leader would reply, because the accountability is being directed through the group leader The significance of this method of holiness is that a spiritually mature Christian appointed by the pastor directed the spiritual development.