celebrating Jewish holidays

[palmas85]

Said nothing about *going to *another faith, or going to another faith to *feel *anything. My desire to do this has nothing to do with not “connecting” to the One True Faith.

“Need” isn’t the issue. I just -]didn’t/-] don’t see anything wrong with celebrating the mercy of God in delivering the “original Catholics” from physical destruction.
I noticed that many Catholics don’t have a problem with celebrating the New Year, Halloween, Fourth of July, Memorial Day, Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, etc…Wouldn’t the observance of the Lord saving His People through Esther and her cousin be more cause for celebration? Or the Day of Atonement?

I’m not saying this to nag or argue, I truly do not see a problem with this, but if the Church has addressed this issue specifically, I’d really like to read what She said. If you could provide a link please, it would be very helpful?

I would start by taking a look at the Ebionites and then going on from there.

All of the celebrations you mentioned that Catholics have no problem in observing are secular, not religious in nature. The Jewish celebrations that you are referring to are religious in nature. If the early Church had seen the need or the benefit of holding on to and celebrating these old traditions they would have done so. I am sure of it. However they did not and since they did not, I see no reason why we should now. Judaism is not Christianity and in fact explicitly rejects what we believe about Jesus. The early Church, after the condemnation of the Ebionites movement, had neither desire or inclination to observe anything Jewish because they saw themselves as the fulfillment of Judaism. In essence they were the true chosen people not the Jews who had rejected Christ… They no longer needed to hold onto the old ways because they now had the revealed truth that the Jews had rejected. I find it strange that people today in many cases do not feel the same way.

Hey knock yourself out if you really want to do these things. I just don’t understand either the need or the desire to engage in practices that the Holy Mother Church discarded over1800 years ago.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think there is something wrong with a Catholic that is so out of touch with the Church that he needs to go to another faith to feel that he is connecting.

And if you think that you need to go outside of the faith to find something, then I have to wonder about you.

And before you decide to say anything, check out the early sources and see exactly how the Church felt aboty cross religious observances.

She is not buying a menorrah or trying to keep kosher. As for “going to another faith”, why are you so against celebrating the faith of Ester or the Maccabees? Do you ever go farther back in your Bible than the Gospel according to Matthew? There is a reason the Fathers left those books in the canon.

“Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe, Who has given us life, and has sustained us, and has brought us to this time.”

I dare to like a prayer that the Lord probably said himself. I don’t know what the mystery is in that, but whatever.

 

[palmas85]

She is not buying a menorrah or trying to keep kosher. As for “going to another faith”, why are you so against celebrating the faith of Ester or the Maccabees? Do you ever go farther back in your Bible than the Gospel according to Matthew? There is a reason the Fathers left those books in the canon.

“Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe, Who has given us life, and has sustained us, and has brought us to this time.”

I dare to like a prayer that the Lord probably said himself. I don’t know what the mystery is in that, but whatever.

Why am I against celebrating the faith of Esther and the Maccabbees. Let me think. That is a hard question indeed.

Wait, I know. It is because I am not of that faith. Thats why.

As an aside, I wouldn’t participate in Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Shinto celebrations either for the very same reason. They are not Christian in nature.

Yes there was a reason that they left them there. But it was not so that we as Christians would continue the practices of Judaism. I can assure you of that. The Church Fathers really didn’t want us to go in that direction as I am sure you already know.

 

[Shin]

Yes there was a reason that they left them there. But it was not so that we as Christians would continue the practices of Judaism. I can assure you of that. The Church Fathers really didn’t want us to go in that direction as I am sure you already know.

It’s not just the fathers too. People might not yet have gained the spiritual understanding as to why not, but it’s a huge not.

 

[Evan]

My understanding is that some Catholic continued to attend synogogue for 200-300 years after Penticost. It was not discarded so much as the synogogue closed the doors.

Jesus did not come to repudiate the OT, but to fulfill it. So we remember not just what he did but who he was, where he come from and the revelation he gave us before his incarnation.

Paul was found at the synogogue every sabbath. I don’t think Peter or Paul believed they had left the faith but through a development of doctrine, and a new revelation, there was a new expression and fuller understanding of the faith.

Islam, Buddism, etc are not part of our faith, 1st century Judeaism is part of our faith. It is the root and we are the flower. Modern Judeaism, in all its forms, are also growths from the same root.

 

[Melchior]

I don’t know too much about the Jewish religion, but if you are Catholic, why would you want to celebrate Jewish holidays when none of their holidays celebrate Jesus?

I know of one Catholic who had one Jewish parent and grew up celebrating the high holidays with that half of his family. He did it because he was raised to appreciate his cultural heritage and loved every minute of it. It was also and opportunity to be a witness of Christ to these people.

I would not have changed my rich Jewish heritage for the world. My Hebrew heritage only enriched my understanding of the faith because I was to draw connection between Passover and the Eucharist and Yom Kippur and Good Friday at a very young age that few have the opportunity to experience.

Should not Hebrew Jews celebrate them? Probably not on their own - we do have our own Christian heritage and we celebrate the fulfillment, not the shadow. But if invited it is worth the experience.

 

[DixitDominus]

The Council of Florence decreed:

“It [the Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosiac law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.” (Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1348)

 

[palmas85]

My understanding is that some Catholic continued to attend synogogue for 200-300 years after Penticost. It was not discarded so much as the synogogue closed the doors.

Jesus did not come to repudiate the OT, but to fulfill it. So we remember not just what he did but who he was, where he come from and the revelation he gave us before his incarnation.

Paul was found at the synogogue every sabbath. I don’t think Peter or Paul believed they had left the faith but through a development of doctrine, and a new revelation, there was a new expression and fuller understanding of the faith.

Islam, Buddism, etc are not part of our faith, 1st century Judeaism is part of our faith. It is the root and we are the flower. Modern Judeaism, in all its forms, are also growths from the same root.

I always kind of hate it when I have to bring up facts on this forum because I know that many people believe only what they have been told, and that’s sad… So to all those who are going to get huffy and puffy after reading this, they are merely the facts. I am nottrying to stake out a theological position, I am merely posting the facts as they happened.

One of the earliest heresiesyes that awful hurtful word, was that of the Ebionites. It may actually have been the first heresy. It was one of the main reasons for the first Church council in history.

The Ebionites, also called Jewish Christian Adoptionists were a first and second century group that maintained in order to be Christian you had to be Jewish first. Their reasoning was that since Christ fulfilled the Jewish Scriptures, interpreted the Jewish law and had been a Jew himself, it was only natural that all followers of this new faith must of necessity follow the old law and be Jewish as well. In fact many scholars believe that Peter himself and the Church at Jerusalem may have been somewhat of this mindset at first.

The Ebionites while accepting Jesus as the Messiah did not see Him as being divine in any sense. He was a man, who interpreted the law better than any other and was thus blessed by God and risen from the dead. He had been born of the sexual union of Joseph and Mary. He had no powers until his baptism by John the Baptist at which time he was adopted by God, hence the name Jewish Christian adoptionists.

This heresy:bigyikes: that awful word again, was attacked uniformly and pretty viciously by the overwhelming majority of the Church fathers and writers of the time. It died out primarily by the second century although there is some evidence that a form of it survived for some time after that. That is probably where the idea of Christians attending Jewish services until the second or third century came from. It is a fiction and did not happen that way.

Yes, many of the very earliest Masses were held in synagogues as well as private homes. These Masses were not typical Jewish services however due to the emphasis on Jesus that was put forth and the presence of the Eucharist, which was not done at Jewish services. That actually accounted for the Christians routinely getting booted from the synagogues. The overwhelming majority of Jews did not accept Jesus as the Messiah and thought the idea was sheer insanity. It did not mesh with their faith in the Law of Moses.

It is also useful to remember that by the end of the first century and most likely earlier than that, the majority of Christians were not former Jews, but former pagans. They would not have been allowed at Jewish services anyway.

By the second century, relations between the Jews and Christians were uniformly pretty bad; based primarily on the assertion of the Christians that they followed the true teaching and that the Jews did not as they had rejected the Messiah. They saw their position as the believers in the new covenent which had fulfilled and replaced the old. The Jews disagreed The Jews said that the Christians could not be the fullfillment of the old covenent as they did not follow the law as laid down by the Torah. Besides that, the Messiah never came, so how could they be? There was actually a lot and I mean a whole lot of bad blood between the Jews and the Christians over these very issues.

Historical truth is often ignored by revisionists who want to put their own particular spin on things’ And that is really really sad.

 

[EasterJoy]

Why am I against celebrating the faith of Esther and the Maccabbees. Let me think. That is a hard question indeed.

Wait, I know. It is because I am not of that faith. Thats why.

As an aside, I wouldn’t participate in Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Shinto celebrations either for the very same reason. They are not Christian in nature.

Yes there was a reason that they left them there. But it was not so that we as Christians would continue the practices of Judaism. I can assure you of that. The Church Fathers really didn’t want us to go in that direction as I am sure you already know.

But yes, you are of the faith of Ester and the Maccabees, as surely as you are of the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! And again: we’re not talking about keeping kosher or having our boys undergo ritual circumcision. We’re talking about whether it is possible to remember Jewish days of significance in a Catholic way. I think there are ways, and ways that honor our own roots as a People of the Book.

Read this, on the Vatican website: vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01111997_p-24_en.html

There are cautions that need to be observed, yes. We aren’t Jews. We ought not pretend that we are. But as the article above points out, even though we are split by our faith in Jesus, the fact remains that we both share the faith of Jesus.

Now, I don’t want to go around and around about this, because you are raising a worthwhile caution. We are not Jews and have no business pretending that we are Jews. To do so might damage our faith and might insult theirs. That point is very well taken. I agree with you on that.

Nevertheless, to try to understand the Jews, to appreciate the graces God gives them even today (as God undeniably does!), to pray for them on the days they are most turned in their hearts and minds to the one God whom we both worship, to rejoice in God’s love for them, to remember that they–who in spite of any sin are marked by their kinship with Abraham as surely as we are marked by baptism!–enjoy a special relationship with God that is defined not by human infidelity but by Divine Fidelity: in this there is no sin and may be real virtue.

I will grant you this, though: a Catholic who avoids this kind of observance, whether out of lack of interest or out of a desire to avoid doing the wrong thing or whatever, should not feel open to criticism. If Yom Kippur goes by without our notice, it is OK. We are bound, as St. Paul was, to pray for the conversion of all, starting with the Jews, but this need not involve their days observance in any way. That would only be one way of doing it. I am only saying that using their holy days as a way to keep them in our memory and to appreciate and give thanks for God’s graciousness to us all can be done, and can be profitable for all involved.

 

[bluecake]

My mother was Jewish - my father Catholic. I grew up celebrating all of the Jewish holidays as a matter of course - I attended a French convent. No confusion, and my mother used to come to Mass with us too, at Christmas, for example; half of my family, on my mother’s side, is Jewish.
I am Catholic, but cannot possibly deny my heritage - and the food, on the Jewish holidays, is so delicious. I wish I had learned how to prepare it properly, but I never did, because my mother was always going to be here, of course…

 

[Lev23]

would you say that it is sinful for a Catholic person/family to celebrate Jewish holidays privately (as in at home, not with the Jews/at the synogogue)? Not all of them, obviously, but maybe Ta’anit Ester, Yom Kippur, Hanukkah… If you believe it’s sinful, why? By the way, this isn’t an ecumenical thing…like I said, private practice. Thanks.

When you go to church on Sunday, May 31st, you will be celebrating Pentecost, a very Jewish feast indeed. Pentecost, or Shavuot is #4 of the seven feasts the God of Israel gave to Israel.

On this feast, God sent the Holy Spirit to the Church.

Shavuot, or Pentecost in Judasim commerates the day God gave the Law to Israel. We know 3000 died for the sin of the golden calf.

The Shavuot that the Church began on, 3000 were saved and added to the Church.

The letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

 

[palmas85]

But yes, you are of the faith of Ester and the Maccabees, as surely as you are of the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! And again: we’re not talking about keeping kosher or having our boys undergo ritual circumcision. We’re talking about whether it is possible to remember Jewish days of significance in a Catholic way. I think there are ways, and ways that honor our own roots as a People of the Book.

Read this, on the Vatican website: vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01111997_p-24_en.html

There are cautions that need to be observed, yes. We aren’t Jews. We ought not pretend that we are. But as the article above points out, even though we are split by our faith in Jesus, the fact remains that we both share the faith of Jesus.

Now, I don’t want to go around and around about this, because you are raising a worthwhile caution. We are not Jews and have no business pretending that we are Jews. To do so might damage our faith and might insult theirs. That point is very well taken. I agree with you on that.

Nevertheless, to try to understand the Jews, to appreciate the graces God gives them even today (as God undeniably does!), to pray for them on the days they are most turned in their hearts and minds to the one God whom we both worship, to rejoice in God’s love for them, to remember that they–who in spite of any sin are marked by their kinship with Abraham as surely as we are marked by baptism!–enjoy a special relationship with God that is defined not by human infidelity but by Divine Fidelity: in this there is no sin and may be real virtue.

I will grant you this, though: a Catholic who avoids this kind of observance, whether out of lack of interest or out of a desire to avoid doing the wrong thing or whatever, should not feel open to criticism. If Yom Kippur goes by without our notice, it is OK. We are bound, as St. Paul was, to pray for the conversion of all, starting with the Jews, but this need not involve their days observance in any way. That would only be one way of doing it. I am only saying that using their holy days as a way to keep them in our memory and to appreciate and give thanks for God’s graciousness to us all can be done, and can be profitable for all involved.

A well reasoned and thoughtful response. I agree with a lot of what you say. My concern is primarily that by engaging in these activities while we may gain in appreciation for other faiths, we run the terrible risk of denigrating and losing appreciation for our own, albeit unintentionally.

The Catholic Church has hundreds of feast days that are obscure, forgotten and relegated mainly to the memories of those few who practice devotions to them. As an example, recently many parishes and Dioceses started having Corpus Christi processions. These sorts of public displays of our faith had pretty much fallen by the wayside inthe years since Vatican II. Why? In no small part to the objections of non Catholics and subsequent fears by Catholics that such overt displays of faith could be construed as offensive to non Catholics and non Christians alike… Yet we were encouraged at the same time to expose ourselves to the religious displays of other faiths in efforts at ecumenism and inter religious dialogue.

I well remember the Deacon at my old Parish who shuddered at the thought of a public rosary recital but threw himself headlong into planning and executing a yearly passover meal for the RCIA and CCA groups so that they could better understand Judaism.

I do feel that we run a terrible risk in these exercises and care must be exercised.

 

[OraProNobisIHM]

A well reasoned and thoughtful response. I agree with a lot of what you say. My concern is primarily that by engaging in these activities while we may gain in appreciation for other faiths, we run the terrible risk of denigrating and losing appreciation for our own, albeit unintentionally.

The Catholic Church has hundreds of feast days that are obscure, forgotten and relegated mainly to the memories of those few who practice devotions to them. As an example, recently many parishes and Dioceses started having Corpus Christi processions. These sorts of public displays of our faith had pretty much fallen by the wayside inthe years since Vatican II. Why? In no small part to the objections of non Catholics and subsequent fears by Catholics that such overt displays of faith could be construed as offensive to non Catholics and non Christians alike… Yet we were encouraged at the same time to expose ourselves to the religious displays of other faiths in efforts at ecumenism and inter religious dialogue.

I well remember the Deacon at my old Parish who shuddered at the thought of a public rosary recital but threw himself headlong into planning and executing a yearly passover meal for the RCIA and CCA groups so that they could better understand Judaism.

I do feel that we run a terrible risk in these exercises and care must be exercised.

True.

Check out FishEaters.com for some great cultural things to do (and some old calendar things to do, too).

 

[Jo_Benedict]

For the most part, this thread has managed to keep on track and not devolve into anti-Semitism or anti-Judaism. Thanks, everyone!

That said, there are a few hints and rumblings in recent posts that this is about to change, so I’ll close the thread now before I have to invoke the standard policy for this forum on matters of Judaism. The thread linked here will be bumped as a gentle reminder for all.

Note:

This thread is closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.