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twf
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I don’t know if things have changed under Pope Francis, but when I was in Rome for Holy Week 2009, most of the masses were sung in Latin with the readings in the vernacular Italian.
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Don_Ruggero
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The liturgy of the papal court is governed by its own norms, which are unique to it. Prerogatives of it are extended beyond it at times, as was the case recently in a specific instance that had occasioned many petitions to the Holy Father from the world’s bishops.
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FabiusMaximus
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Entwhistler
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The comments are almost more interesting than the article. 
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OraLabora
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I’ll mention it to our choirmaster.
In addition to Mass once a month, this year we did Solemn Vespers in Advent and Lent, Lauds of Holy Saturday, a funeral Mass, and a nuptial Mass, all in the Ordinary Form. Plus we sang at a sold-out concert last winter. We were the only performers. If Gregorian chant dies, it won’t be because we didn’t try!
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IOGD
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OraLabora is there a name for your schola so we could find any videos, information, etc? I would love to hear some of your work! It sounds like it will be beautiful.
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bobballen_18
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Each of these “options” for the EF is mandated to be celebrated in a rather specific way, nothing like these “broad guidelines” you speak of from SC. There are very few differences in actual texts between each of these “options” in the EF. I may very well be mistaken, as I don’t usually get to attend anything other than Low Mass, but I definitely can’t think of a variance in text off the top of my head between say, a Low Mass for Pentecost, and a Solemn High Mass for Pentecost.
So to sum, I am not sure it’s really very accurate to say that the EF has options, at least not in the same sense that the OF does. In the OF you can technically choose whether to even do the propers at all (you can do “some other appropriate text”); you can choose between three penitential rites; you can choose between four (or I think more in some cases) eucharistic prayers; you can choose between three memorial acclamations. You cannot choose such differences in texts in the EF. The only textual differences are possible variances in what saints to celebrate or commemorate. And I don’t know, maybe this is just my biased opinion, but to me, being able to use different proper texts according to the appropriate saint is a little different than being able to vary things such as the eucharistic prayer and penitential rite.
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FabiusMaximus
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Could this be why the Ordinary Form Mass is so varied among the parishes, because the Church allows a lot of leeway in how it is celebrated?
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FabiusMaximus
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Some of us need a fix when we don’t have constant access to a Tridentine Mass XD.I’ll mention it to our choirmaster.
In addition to Mass once a month, this year we did Solemn Vespers in Advent and Lent, Lauds of Holy Saturday, a funeral Mass, and a nuptial Mass, all in the Ordinary Form. Plus we sang at a sold-out concert last winter. We were the only performers. If Gregorian chant dies, it won’t be because we didn’t try!
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OraLabora
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choeurgregoriensherbrooke.org/
All in French for the time being alas. We mostly use the site to download our music sheets. I’m not aware of any youtube recordings of us, possibly we have been recorded without knowing it. I’ll mention it to the choirmaster that we need recordings. We’ve talked about it in the past.
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IOGD
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N’est pas un problème, je le parle! Merci pour le site-web!choeurgregoriensherbrooke.org/
All in French for the time being alas. We mostly use the site to download our music sheets. I’m not aware of any youtube recordings of us, possibly we have been recorded without knowing it. I’ll mention it to the choirmaster that we need recordings. We’ve talked about it in the past.
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ProVobis
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So many options. May make one wonder why they just didn’t offer the 62 Missal as one of the options of the normative liturgy (OF) in the first place.
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Don_Ruggero
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Indeed it should not be, given what Sacrosanctum Concilium says needed to be fixed in the vetus ordo.
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twf
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Of course, Father, various elements of the old Mass were made options for the new. I know a liturgical scholar, such as yourself, may not agree, but as a lay man in the pews, an OF celebrated with all the “traditional” options (chanted propers and readings, polyphonic choir, incense, sprinkling rite, ad orientem, Eucharistic Prayer 1, etc.) is almost indistinguishable in look and feel from a sung EF dialogue mass…and completely and utterly alien experience from the OF mass as celebrated in most North American parishes.
If I were a Protestant off the street (which in I was once), and first went to an EF sung dialogue mass, and then went to an OF mass at St. Peter’s in Rome, I would detect few differences. If I went to an OF mass at an average parish in North America, I would assume I was experiencing a completely distinct rite. These are superficial comparisons of course, but I think accurate for the perceptions of the “average Joe”.
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OraLabora
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I don’t see it as such a distinct difference for a Catholic though. Whether I am at a spoken OF Mass, or an OF Mass sung in our abbey in Gregorian chant, it is still very clear to me that it is the same Mass. The order is the same, the words the same, only the degree of solemnity, musical selections (if any) and a few options, perhaps, vary.
To be honest, I suspect that your hypothetical Protestant off the street would say the same thing if he first attended a low spoken EF Mass at 7 am on a Sunday morning, versus a solemn EF High Mass at St. Peter’s or anywhere else. To us, as Catholics, it would clearly be the same Mass. but to your hypothetical Protestant off the street, (who in fact probably has no knowledge of the Latin liturgy to begin with), he would wonder why such a big difference between 7 am and 10 am Masses (unless of course he was a High Church Anglican… then he’d have a clue).
As I write this I have a 1935 “Liturgical Manual and Ceremonial” from France in front of me. The degree of minutiae depending on altar configurations, how to incense them, mind boggling. In a Mass with the altar between the choir and the nave, for instance, turned towards the choir, the Mass would be seen as v. populum for the faithful and ad orientem for the clergy/community seated in the choir. But if the altar is turned the other way, it is the other way around, v. populum for the clergy in the choir and ad orientem for the faithful.
Mass types are divided into:
- Low Mass (without sacred ministers, and no incense)
- Sung Mass (sung by the priest without sacred ministers, incense by indult only)
- Solemn Mass (with sacred ministers and incense)
- Conventual Mass (Mass sung in choir which must conform to the breviary, for cathedrals, colleges and religious communities)
- Mass corresponding with the breviary
- Mass not corresponding with the breviary (e.g. votive Mass)
Reading this book makes it clear why the Mass reforms of Vatican II happened.
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ProVobis
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I attended a Lutheran service which was practically identical to an English Mass. Looks and feels don’t tell the whole story.
The amount of minutiae and detail required is unbelievable, to the point of specifying on which step to genuflect, how many swings and pattern to incense an altar. It’s a wonder a Mass was ever celebrated without even a minor error. If the Liturgical Abuse Police of CAF ever got a hold of this book they would have a field day at any EF Mass
For what it’s worth, the 1962 Missal had already made some what-was-needed reforms to the Mass. That’s why when JPII restored the vetus ordo, he specified it must be the 1962 Missal and in Latin only. Some groups were using earlier versions, such as the 1945 Missal.
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ProVobis
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S/b “what-were-needed reforms.” They had been started in 1948, if not before. And from the looks of things the 1962 Missal was never really fully implemented, except perhaps at the Council sessions themselves. The irony.
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OraLabora
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Yes, the Pian commission started in the ‘40s under Annibale Bugnini. The Holy Week reforms were the first major result. Also the Mass versus populum was first tested at the abbey of Sant’ Anselmo in Rome around the same time.
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ProVobis
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Was it “versus populum” per se or free-standing altars? I know our parish had a “pulled back” high-altar in the 50’s.
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OraLabora
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The monastery in question has a quite common altar arrangement for a monastery, that is between the nave and the choir. It is my understanding from a tour of the place, that they had the specific mandate to test versus populum. I know the place quite well, having been 4 times including two stays of a week each. It is a free-standing altar.
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