Celibacy and the Catholic Priest

[davidv]

Except that there is no “choice” involved.

There is always choice involved. The first choice is whether we will answer God’s call to the particular vocation he planned, i.e., husband, wife, father, mother, consecrated religious, lay single, or ministerial priesthood. Then during the rest of our lives, we are faced with the many choices needed to remain faithful to that calling.

 

[rr1213]

Actually, the Church has a perfect right to establish its own discipline. Protestant churches, too, have a right to insist that only married men may be ordained…

I would disagree with that position as much as I disagree with the Church’s prohibition in the Latin Rite on ordaining married men to the clergy. Again, Scripture contemplates a clergy which includes both married and celibate men. For the Church, or Protestant Churches, to insist on one status over the other (as opposed to merely ***preferring ***one status to the other) does violence to the Scriptural framework.

 

[rr1213]

There is always choice involved. The first choice is whether we will answer God’s call to the particular vocation he planned, i.e., husband, wife, father, mother, consecrated religious, lay single, or ministerial priesthood. Then during the rest of our lives, we are faced with the many choices needed to remain faithful to that calling.

Since a priesthood that includes married men is contemplated by Scripture, the choice to marry cannot–in and of itself–be a legitimate disqualifier to the same man also being called to the vocation of priest.

 

[joshua_b]

I’ve read each of your posts. I even agree with much that you say. Where your train goes off the rail is your assertion that the policy (discipline, rule…whatever) of the Latin Rite is no more than a ***preference ***for an unmarried priesthood. In actuality, it is a prohibition for which the Church reserves to itself the right to make exceptions.

The rule is that if you are Latin Rite Catholic–and married–you will not be ordained as a priest. In some cases, an exception may be made for Protestant clergy who have converted to the Catholic faith.

How often is a married cradle Catholic ordained to the Latin Rite priesthood? For that matter, how often is a married convert to the Catholic faith–who was not a clergyman in his former life–ordained to the Latin Rite priesthood? The answers to these questions illustrate that we are talking about a prohibition, not a preference. Just because there are exceptions to the rule does not make it less of a prohibition.

In contrast, a preference (or even a presumption) would be a factor that is considered at the time of application to the priesthood but which, in and of itself, is not determinative of the matter either directly or by its absence. For example, if a married cradle Catholic applies to the priesthood and is rejected simply because he is married (in all other respects it is agreed that he would make a fine priest) then you are essentially creating an “irrebuttable presumption”…otherwise known as a “prohibition”. Since Scripture expressly permits a married priesthood, the enforcement of a prohibition by the Church contradicts Scripture. The Church cannot prohibit what Scripture expressly permits, thereby prescribing something that is within the realm of Christian liberty.

Okay, now I feel like we are actually engaged in a productive discussion.

I suppose all I can do is disagree with your assertion. I just can not see how you can assert this discipline as a “prohibition” in “the Catholic Church” in light of the position of the Eastern Rites and all the exceptions made in the Latin Rite. The point you’re hung on is illogical to me, in that I fail to see how your line of reasoning leads to the conclusion that the Catholic Church contradicts Scripture.

The “numerous exceptions” in the Latin Rite and the allowance in the Eastern Rites (both of which you correctly point out have been mentioned repeatedly), from my perspective give obvious testimony to the fact that there is no “prohibition”. If there were a “prohibition” in “the Catholic Church” on married priests, there would be no married Catholic priests. The fact that they exist rules out a prohibition in the Catholic Church. It really is that simple (in my mind at least). Until you can point me to an official statement of the Church that says “no priests can be married throughout the entire Church”, or can prove that there are no Catholic priests that are married, then I don’t think you can fairly say that the CC’s position on this contradicts Scripture.

You may be of the opinion that the CC is a bit extreme in its interpretation of the benefits of a celebate and unmarried clergy, and how it goes about trying to adhere to the Scriptural preference for such, and although I would disagree with that opinion, I would still recognize it as valid and able to be substantiated. But to say that the CC contradicts Scripture is a leap that I just dont think can be reasonably defended.

 

[rr1213]

Okay, now I feel like we are actually engaged in a productive discussion.

I suppose all I can do is disagree with your assertion. I just can not see how you can assert this discipline as a “prohibition” in “the Catholic Church” in light of the position of the Eastern Rites and all the exceptions made in the Latin Rite. The point you’re hung on is illogical to me, in that I fail to see how your line of reasoning leads to the conclusion that the Catholic Church contradicts Scripture.

The “numerous exceptions” in the Latin Rite and the allowance in the Eastern Rites (both of which you correctly point out have been mentioned repeatedly), from my perspective give obvious testimony to the fact that there is no “prohibition”. If there were a “prohibition” in “the Catholic Church” on married priests, there would be no married Catholic priests. The fact that they exist rules out a prohibition in the Catholic Church. It really is that simple (in my mind at least). Until you can point me to an official statement of the Church that says “no priests can be married throughout the entire Church”, or can prove that there are no Catholic priests that are married, then I don’t think you can fairly say that the CC’s position on this contradicts Scripture.

You may be of the opinion that the CC is a bit extreme in its interpretation of the benefits of a celebate and unmarried clergy, and how it goes about trying to adhere to the Scriptural preference for such, and although I would disagree with that opinion, I would still recognize it as valid and able to be substantiated. But to say that the CC contradicts Scripture is a leap that I just dont think can be reasonably defended.

What percentage of the Catholic Church is Latin Rite vs. Eastern Rites? I don’t know, but I suspect that the Church, lay and clergy, is overwhelmingly Latin Rite. Assuming this to be the case, if the Church effectively prohibits the priesthood to married Latin Rite Catholic men then, for the most part, it is a prohibition that applies through most of the Church. It would be like saying in the United States that a prohibition of casinos, except on sovereign land of Native Americans, isn’t really a nation-wide prohibition of casinos. Yes, actually it is…with some very small exceptions. Likewise married clergy in the Eastern Rite Churches.

Still, even if you agree with what I’ve stated above, you are not going to concede that the Church’s practice contradicts Scripture. I know that it is impossible for a faithful Catholic to make, or believe, such an admission.

 

[jmcrae]

I would disagree with that position as much as I disagree with the Church’s prohibition in the Latin Rite on ordaining married men to the clergy. Again, Scripture contemplates a clergy which includes both married and celibate men. For the Church, or Protestant Churches, to insist on one status over the other (as opposed to merely ***preferring ***one status to the other) does violence to the Scriptural framework.

Then how do you maintain discipline in the Church? If an unmarried pastor can be married, then how does he deal with the many women who pursue him to become his bride? (Or those who suspect him of being homosexual, if he rebuffs their attentions, because he wants to be celibate?)

The majority of Protestant organizations deal with it by only ordaining married men and men who are already engaged to be married. They certainly don’t advertise that they don’t ordain single, celibate men, but at the same time, when is the last time you saw a single, celibate man ordained in a Protestant church - who didn’t end up married two years later, purely in self-defense?

 

[rr1213]

Then how do you maintain discipline in the Church? If an unmarried pastor can be married, then how does he deal with the many women who pursue him to become his bride? (Or those who suspect him of being homosexual, if he rebuffs their attentions, because he wants to be celibate?)

I’ve been talking primarily of ordaining married men, not allowing unmarried priests to marry after ordination. I think the two issues are distinguishable. To the extent that they are not, then an eligible priest will just need to bear that burden as does any other eligible man in a stressful profession.

 

[rr1213]

The majority of Protestant organizations deal with it by only ordaining married men and men who are already engaged to be married. They certainly don’t advertise that they don’t ordain single, celibate men, but at the same time, when is the last time you saw a single, celibate man ordained in a Protestant church - who didn’t end up married two years later, purely in self-defense?

I’m privy to no statistics on the issue, but from personal observation I would agree that most Protestant clergy are probably married. As I’ve said above, I certainly don’t think that this must be the case…I have no problem with a celibate clergyman who is eligible to be married choosing to remain celibate…afterall Paul even recommends this approach. The difference is that Paul did not mandate that it be so.

On a practical side, I suspect that an unmarried man who is a Protestant clergyman is likely, at least in the US, to be suspected to be homosexual. Sad, but true. Maybe some Churches even hesitate to ordain single men because of that possibility. Again, said but likely to be true.

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve been talking primarily of ordaining married men, not allowing unmarried priests to marry after ordination.

Well, as others have pointed out, we have in the past, and still today, ordain married men to the priesthood - rarely, but it is not absolutely forbidden. Even St. Paul believed and taught that it was ought to be normal for the clergy to be celibate - which is the case in the Catholic Church.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

First off, where specifically in scripture does it say any of the apostles had wives? We know St. Peter had a mother in law. Because Christ healed her of a fever, right? And then SHE GOT UP TO SERVE HIM. It goes to reason that if her daughter, Peter’s wife, was still alive, wouldn’t she have gotten up to serve Christ and let her mother rest? (When Christ brought the dead little girl back to life, he told them to give her something to eat. So it’s obvious that scripture writers do pay attention to detail. No one mentioned a wife in that story.)

I just wonder if St. Peter was a widower already.

Having said that, what about women who want to be nuns and also have kids and husbands? They need to make really big convents so people can have it all!

How can a man take the Church for his bride if he already has a bride? I know exceptions are made. But I think the whole celibacy thing keeps lots of problems at bay:

1. Messy divorces of priests and their wives that cause public scandal and undermine his ability to teach the permanency of marriage.
2. Priests who contracept in their marriages and so can’t get up in the pulpit and preach against it.
3. Children of priests who can cause all kinds of scandal on their own. And I knew the deacon’s kids growing up had a hard time of it, because they had the burden of their father’s vocation on them too.
4. The financial problems of the priest’s family either living in poverty in the parish, or living better than the families the priest serves. Who supports him and his family? Does he send his kids to the Catholic school when other families who are supporting him cannot afford to do so?
5. The lack of justice in the priest being unavailable to his own family in order to fulfill his obligations to his parish. He would never be around on Christmas, Easter, etc. Being called to make sick calls all the time, hear confessions, counselling…
6. The potential for gossip that would occur that would undermine his authority.
7. What if his wife dissents from church teaching? Or his kids?
8. What if he dies? Does his family get thrown out on the street?
9. It won’t take care of the vocation shortage. Where I came from, the ex was Orthodox before he was Catholic. His church diocese had a worse vocation crisis than the Catholic diocese.
   And they couldn’t even claim celibacy as a reason.

Just some practical questions about all of it. And don’t point to the 2 - 4 % of pedophile priests over the last half century as a reason for getting rid of celibacy. Those men shouldn’t have been ordained to begin with, or should have been thrown out the first time they offended. That is not the issue here.

The self-sacrifice necessary to become a good priest is tremendous. Knowing the priesthood entails a lifetime of celibacy makes it in a sense a bit self-selecting. You are going to get a group of men who go in willing to be self-sacrificing. (Hopefully.)

 

[SyCarl]

1Co 9:5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?

 

[rr1213]

Well, as others have pointed out, we have in the past, and still today, ordain married men to the priesthood - rarely, but it is not absolutely forbidden.

Very, very rarely. Answer me this honestly. If I am a married Catholic man of the Latin Rite with my wife still alive, what are my chances of being ordained in the Latin Rite? Practically nonexistent.

 

[davidv]

Very, very rarely. Answer me this honestly. If I am a married Catholic man of the Latin Rite with my wife still alive, what are my chances of being ordained in the Latin Rite? Practically nonexistent.

If you were in that state, why would you want to be ordained a priest?

 

[rr1213]

First off, where specifically in scripture does it say any of the apostles had wives?

SyCarl:
Beaten to it.

 

[rr1213]

If you were in that state, why would you want to be ordained a priest?

Not the question asked.

Nonetheless, perhaps I have been called to the priesthood. Afterall, seems to work for Eastern Rite Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, both of which have a valid–and to a great extent–married priesthood.

 

[jmcrae]

Very, very rarely. Answer me this honestly. If I am a married Catholic man of the Latin Rite with my wife still alive, what are my chances of being ordained in the Latin Rite? Practically nonexistent.

So are your chances of having a vocation to the priesthood, in the first place.

Most likely, you have already finished school, you’ve started on a career path, and you have a job, or at least an apprenticeship, in order to be able to support your wife and any children who are about to come along.

It is extremely unlikely that someone would suddenly find out after they were married that they had a vocation to the priesthood. Most boys know it when they are quite young, and they make their life choices based on their responses to their vocation.

 

[Bishopite]

No, the Church must act in conformity with Scripture. If it does not act in conformity with Scripture, it is not acting as the Body of Christ because Christ will not contradict himself.

So to which Scriptural interpretation does the “Church” conform??

 

[davidv]

Not the question asked.

Nonetheless, perhaps I have been called to the priesthood. Afterall, seems to work for Eastern Rite Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, both of which have a valid–and to a great extent–married priesthood.

I don’t have any data. Do you know how many Eastern Rite Priests are married as a % of the total. I have read (don’t know where), that despite the married priests, there are no married bishops.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t have any data. Do you know how many Eastern Rite Priests are married as a % of the total. I have read (don’t know where), that despite the married priests, there are no married bishops.

They also have a very strong monastic tradition - both male and female, who of course are all celibate, as well. As I understand it, they select their Bishops from among priest-monks rather than from their regular priesthood.

 

[rr1213]

So are your chances of having a vocation to the priesthood, in the first place.

Most likely, you have already finished school, you’ve started on a career path, and you have a job, or at least an apprenticeship, in order to be able to support your wife and any children who are about to come along.

I, of course, am way beyond that point personally. Nonetheless, a calling to the clergy can come later in life. I’ve personally known of a number of people who were called after being married and well within their careers.