Celibacy as a requirement

[ASimpleSinner]

Okay, and how many of these are homosexual? Notice also, that these “growing” memberships began just about the same time as the child molestation law suits became public. What’s going on here is very clear to see. Homosexuals have always been lonely and hungry for God (which is good). Once they found out they can be closer to God and in the company of their own kind (and I don’t mean that maliciously) they enlisted all over the place.

???

Was that written in response to someone’s post, or just an abrupt change of subject to challenge the practice of celibacy.

Are you of the thinking that child-molestation is a widespread phenomena among the clergy?

Are you of the thinking that in today’s pansexual fantasy land of the west same-sex attracted men really find 6-12 years of priestly formation and a life of living in the closet so desirable that they are signing up in droves? To be sure there are more than a few that struggle with this, but are you putting the cart before the horse to say that gay men are going past the urban “gayborhoods” and past the gay bars to find haven in the seminary and presbyteral closet in droves?

Are you of the thinking that sexual deviants are not found in the married state and marriage can and would protect church communities from sex scandals?

No, sorry I won’t. Not only did you fail to look up your own scripture (what was that about “lazy”?) but now you’re asking someone else to look up history. Tell you what “yo” … look it up yourself.

You will not back up your statements with citation? Originally I was being self-deprecating with the “lazy” reference, but now I think I can easily roll with applying it to the OP.

If you make an accusation back it up. If you engage in a polemic or discussion or dialogue with someone, remember who it is with whom you are discussing these points. In fact I am familiar with the scripture you provided for us - so I can’t see where you can post to me and say “Not only did you fail to look up your own scripture …”

Did you think I didn’t look it up or was not familiar with it because I did not draw the same conclusion you did?

 

[fix]

You are absolutely correct in saying that celibacy is a matter of PERSONAL CHOICE and no church or institution has the right to exclude anyone from pastoral service based on that, if they have been called into service by God - and the scriptures SAY SO !

Again, you are the authority?

 

[clmowry]

No as Catholics we’re free to opine on non-defined issues to our hearts content.

This subject, however’s been closed (from a Catholic doctrine stand point.) Disagreeing would be, I think, by definition, desent.

In a similar way, we could talk about the Trinity and try to better understand it and write about it in ways that make it better grasped, but all that talk is not going to lead to a change in the doctrine.

So from a Catholic perspective, the “debate” has been over for a long long time.

Having discussions so that we can better understand the teaching makes since to me. “Debating” the subject, at least from the perspective of the teaching changing, on the other hand is a waste of time.

Now when it comes to say a married priesthood, the debate is far from over. This and similar subjects seem like a better place to spend our time.

Of course that said. I’m pretty sure you can put just about anything up for debate on this forum and get takers from both sides.

Chuck

Is anyone who disagrees with the Pope or Bishops on non-infallible issues a dissident? Am I to blindly follow any statement of the Pope or the Bishops ? I think good healthy debate and disagreements should not necessarily be just rejected and thrown into the dissident file. Good dialogue should not always result in phrases like “dissident factions”,“feminist nuns” etc. If we can’t have healthy, civil disagreements without calling one another names then what’s the point of these forums ?

 

[kerren1]

Absolutely not. As a Christian and Protestant won’t be reading up on the Council of Nicaea - or whatever - any time soon. And as a Christian I don’t recognize your early Catholic “practioners” as any kind of authority ON ANYTHING ! ! !

So, if you want to discuss this topic with me, you should confine yourself to THE WORDS OF CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES ONLY. No other teachings will be recognized here today.

By the way … these early practitioners that you’re trying to quote are the same ones who started “indulgences” … paying money to “get into heaven” … limbus infantium - which is a lie from hell … beating and hurting oneself as a means to “holiness” …
and praying to little statues of DEAD PEOPLE … who have no right or authority to answer prayer. (You have to be born of a Virgin and then nailed to a cross to do that.) Okay? So you have yourself a Proberbs 10:22 day.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

You are absolutely correct in saying that celibacy is a matter of PERSONAL CHOICE and no church or institution has the right to exclude anyone from pastoral service based on that, if they have been called into service by God - and the scriptures SAY SO !

It is also a choice how one serves God.

If we could take a pause here for a second and establish who it is or how it is to be determined who has a “right” to priesthood. Is that right to be understood as also being in line with the mandate to evangelize? Are you of the thinking that only priests take on pastoral duties?

For the record, my Catholic priest IS married - it is part of my Greek Catholic tradition. Having said that, I still support the right and decision of a church to establish who may be formed for and ordained to the priesthood. No one has that “right”.

We don’t know each other terribly well - as of this writing you have only posted seven comments online - so when looking at your profile to learn more about your thinking on this matter I noticed that you had self-described yourself as Protestant.

Before going even further into the debate on celebacy for priests, I would like to better understand your thinking on what a priest is - your thinking on holy orders as a divinely granted office.

IF we are not in agreement on our thinking about the nature of the priesthood, then it may be something we should examine first before looking at celibacy and its pros, cons and historical applications in the Church.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Absolutely not. As a Christian and Protestant won’t be reading up on the Council of Nicaea - or whatever - any time soon. And as a Christian I don’t recognize your early Catholic “practioners” as any kind of authority ON ANYTHING ! ! !

So, if you want to discuss this topic with me, you should confine yourself to THE WORDS OF CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES ONLY. No other teachings will be recognized here today.

No dice darlin.

Only you will be left to discuss things if you are to tell us how we are to discuss things.

How familiar are you with Catholic thought and teaching?

Here at Catholic Answers forum we won’t be told that we cannot be Catholic. And as Catholics, we won’t be pigeon-holed into the ahistorical system of sola scriptura.

Share with us please how you came to understand that only the Bible has authority?

 

[kerren1]

Yes, you’re free to opine anything you like - but not free to join the priesthood if you tell ‘em you’re gonna’ get married. Correct? So again, celibacy is being “forced” upon priests as a requirement for priesthood. By the way, I’m not a Catholic, I’m a Christian … or if you prefer … a Protestant. Have a good day sir.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You are absolutely correct in saying that celibacy is a matter of PERSONAL CHOICE and no church or institution has the right to exclude anyone from pastoral service based on that, if they have been called into service by God - and the scriptures SAY SO !

Yes but how do we determine if one is called by God into service?

The Catholic understanding of this is that one is actually called. That is one may feel that they have a calling and they go into discernment on it. At some point they go the next step, that is if their discernment leads them to this point, and they enter in to a time of shared discernment with a diocese or religious order. This will be a time of spiritual formation and education to prepare the man for ordination or what ever else his ministry (in the case of religious brothers/sisters) will be.

At the end of this the individual will be called to ordination (or religious vows) by a bishop or religious superior. This is the only time that a person can truly say that they are called.

A calling is not a person thing. A calling is for service to the Body of Christ and needs to be discerned with that Body, which is the Church. The call must also come from the Body, again, which is the Church. This happens thought the office of the bishop or religious superior.

As for the comment, “no church or institution has the right to exclude anyone from pastoral service based on that”, you are wrong. No one has a right to serve in the Church, especially as a priest, deacon, or religious brother/sister.

Also very interesting is that whenever this topic comes up, we are always given the story of the eunich and Pauls’ preamble on abstinance. But he also said very clearly abstinace is NOT FOR EVERYONE. He also said FORCING this upon someone is a DOCTRINE OF DEMONS. See the following scriptures:

Hebrews 13:4

1st Timothy 4:1-5

You will also note that celibacy in the secular clergy is only a disciplinary matter. It is not the law for the whole Church as the Byzantine Catholic Churches have as the norm a married secular clergy (a tradition that has been lost in America but is slowly being restored) and has been dispensed in the case of a number of converting protestant ministers.

Religious must always be celibate.

 

[fix]

Yes, you’re free to opine anything you like - but not free to join the priesthood if you tell ‘em you’re gonna’ get married. Correct? So again, celibacy is being “forced” upon priests as a requirement for priesthood. By the way, I’m not a Catholic, I’m a Christian … or if you prefer … a Protestant. Have a good day sir.

Anyone who claims a calling needs to have that calling verified by the Church. Simply claiming such does not make it so.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Yes, you’re free to opine anything you like - but not free to join the priesthood if you tell ‘em you’re gonna’ get married. Correct? So again, celibacy is being “forced” upon priests as a requirement for priesthood. By the way, I’m not a Catholic, I’m a Christian … or if you prefer … a Protestant. Have a good day sir.

You can’t force something on a volunteer. In the Latin Church you may do one or the other. In the east, you must be married before ordination, or remain celibate. If your wife dies you must also remain celibate.

If you were a Baptist, and wanted to become a Baptist minister, the criteria laid out for you - up to and including adherence to that communities accepted theologies - is expected.

I do prefer Protestant because it is a more apt descriptor of your particular theological ideaology.

As to the idea that Protestants as a whole do not look to the Church Fathers or early Ecumenical councils. This is simply not so. The level to which they ascribe authority or reliability on them varies greatly, but more than a few would be happy to consider, if not follow Nicea.

Then again, you are the one who asked up to look up some history on this matter. Would it kill you to look a bit of what we offer up?

 

[kerren1]

I know for a fact Old and New Testaments are the FINAL authority of God because of this …

Galatians 1:6-9:
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel there be some that would pervert the gospel of Christ.

If any preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Do you see the words “cursed” and “another Gospel” … Okay, now let’s a look at some of the things the Catholic Church has been teaching which are not found ANYWHERE in the Old or New Testaments:

1. Praying to statues of dead people
2. Limbus Infantium
3. Purgatory
4. Paying Indulgences
5. Beating and cutting oneself as a means to “holiness”
6. Burning people at the steak for disagreeing.

Yes sir, you can be Catholic all you like, but you cannot add on or take away from the TRUE words of Christ and the Apostles. Christ is the Son of God … no other.

Share with us please how you came to understand that only the Bible has authority?

 

[clmowry]

Well to use a southern phrase, you don’t really have a dog in this hunt do ya?

No one ever said that the Bible teaches that all preists must be celibate.

This is a discipline of the Catholic Church in the west, though there are exceptions (seems like I remember reading that there are 1,000 or so married priest in the Catholic Church).

It could be changed, though there are plenty of good reasons why it might not ever be changed.

I’m sure if you look carefully at the “WORDS OF CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES ONLY.”

You will see that the Apostle Paul and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ while not mandating that all preists be celibate sure thought it was the better choice for those called to do so.

Seems a bit strange that Christ called his Apostles to leave behind the married life and follow Him if it was just as good an idea to bring the wife and kids along, don’t ya think?

Chuck

Absolutely not. As a Christian and Protestant won’t be reading up on the Council of Nicaea - or whatever - any time soon. And as a Christian I don’t recognize your early Catholic “practioners” as any kind of authority ON ANYTHING ! ! !

So, if you want to discuss this topic with me, you should confine yourself to THE WORDS OF CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES ONLY. No other teachings will be recognized here today.

By the way … these early practitioners that you’re trying to quote are the same ones who started “indulgences” … paying money to “get into heaven” … limbus infantium - which is a lie from hell … beating and hurting oneself as a means to “holiness” …
and praying to little statues of DEAD PEOPLE … who have no right or authority to answer prayer. (You have to be born of a Virgin and then nailed to a cross to do that.) Okay? So you have yourself a Proberbs 10:22 day.

 

[clmowry]

Yes, you’re free to opine anything you like - but not free to join the priesthood if you tell ‘em you’re gonna’ get married. Correct?

Correct.

So again, celibacy is being “forced” upon priests as a requirement for priesthood.

Nobody is being forced to become a priest. So no.

By the way, I’m not a Catholic, I’m a Christian … or if you prefer … a Protestant.

Never doubted it for a second.

Chuck

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I know for a fact Old and New Testaments are the FINAL authority of God because of this …

Can you tell me where the Old and New Testaments come from? How they were formed into the Bible?

Can you show me a list in the Bible (besides the Table of Contents) that lists what books are to be included in the Bible?

The Bible is a product of the Church. The Church formed the Canon of the Bible. The Early Church had no Bible. The Church is the FINAL authority of God because He made it and it was the Church that produced the Bible.

That is unless you can show me a list in the Bible that lists the books.

As for your other nonsense with really do not fit this topic, if you had a real Bible that had all the books in it, rather than the protestant version that cut out books (Books that are Inspired by God just as all the other books in the Bible) you would find many of those things your are looking for.

 

[jam070406]

1. Burning people at the steak for disagreeing.

I like my steak medium well.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

1. Burning people at the steak for disagreeing.

Wow, missed this.

Let me see, the protestants are not free of this one either. Remember the witch trials of New England?

How about Martin Luther calling for the killing of Jews?

I also believe that the Church of England killing many Catholics for the very fact that they disagreed with them.

 

[kerren1]

Apples and oranges, sir. Yes it’s really great to receive confirmation of one’s calling and it SHOULD be that way. But what if that particular institutions makes requirements against one’s own will. The bottom line is … it’s not anyone’s business whether a “called servant” stays celibate or marries. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Take a look …

1 Timothy 3:1-2
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of ONE WIFE, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach…

The other thing is, we have all been created with an “ear to hear” the Creator call us. We’re not children or nursing babies. We can hear Him speak on our own and don’t need a bishop to “give us permission” to fellowship with God. Take a look …

John 14:16-18:
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Anyone who claims a calling needs to have that calling verified by the Church. Simply claiming such does not make it so.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Wow, missed this.

Let me see, the protestants are not free of this one either. Remember the witch trials of New England?

How about Martin Luther calling for the killing of Jews?

I also believe that the Church of England killing many Catholics for the very fact that they disagreed with them.

I would much rather have taken my chances in the Inquisistion in Spain rather than been in Northern (Protestant) Europe where they were also burning witches.

Any one care to look up the reputable stats on that one?

 

[kerren1]

Yeah yeah yeah … I like mine well done. ha.

I like my steak medium well.

 

[FCEGM]

I like my steak medium well.

I like mine medium rare - but it’s still steak.