Celibacy: east vs. west

[notredame_999]

I don’t think that there is any way that we can prove or disprove that the grandfather of St. Patrick was continent. It does not really matter. The marriage act is not only an act of love between husband and wife, but it is also an act of justice. Couples have a right to each other’s physical love. A spouse cannot deny the other without just cause. The fact that a man will be celebrating the sacraments or assisting at liturgy as does a deacon is not just cause to deny your spoiuse her rights, because the two are not in conflict.

There was a time in the history of the Christian world when the sexual act was viewed with some negativity. It was viewed almost as a necessary evil. But this was never a doctrine of the Church. It was a product of the times The Church’s understanding of the sexual act between spouses has become clearer with the passing of the centuries.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Yes but Brother those times are very relevant because it was those beliefs in the Latin Church that influenced the decision for mandatory celibacy. St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc. all believed that sexual intercourse between man and his wife made him unclean. In fact I have read that St. Augustine believed that a man’s erection signified man’s disobedience to God. I also read that St. Thomas Aquinas felt the only reason the marital act was good was because it produced more potenital virgins.

Why can’t latin catholics just be honest about why we have mandatory celibacy for clergy? Why can’t we just say its because our latin fathers believed that marital intercourse made a man unclean to administer the sacraments?

Why don’t we drop these ridiculous arguments about time management. As many eastern catholics have pointed out, many married priests have been much more accessible than celibate ones.

 

[notredame_999]

Adding on to my last post, the reason why the latin fathers believed the marital act made a man unclean was because the amount of pleasure involved for an erection/orgasm. This goes back to jewish tradition.

However, don’t diocesean priests experience pleasure by:
-vacationing
-going to the horse track
-going to the casino
-golfing
-watching movies
-drinking alcohol

I’m just trying to understand how the latin church can ban a married priesthood because of the amount of pleasure experienced with sex, yet they can allow other pleasurable activities.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yes but Brother those times are very relevant because it was those beliefs in the Latin Church that influenced the decision for mandatory celibacy.

I know you believe this but I do not think that it has been sufficiently.

I believe your opinion is colored by your feeling that you are called to both which can not be the case in the Latin Church.

Have you gotten a spiritual director yet? Having one is very important in discernment and will be required when/if you enter formation, it might even be required before you are able to apply. It was in my experience, at least it was highly suggested if not required.

 

[notredame_999]

I know you believe this but I do not think that it has been sufficiently.

I believe your opinion is colored by your feeling that you are called to both which can not be the case in the Latin Church.

Have you gotten a spiritual director yet? Having one is very important in discernment and will be required when/if you enter formation, it might even be required before you are able to apply. It was in my experience, at least it was highly suggested if not required.

I think you are right my opinion is probably colored. I just wish people would be honest about why the latin church has adopted celibacy because of the beliefs of our church fathers regarding sex, and drop the time management arguments. Technically, I could wake up at 7, say mass at 8, hear confessions from 11-12, visit sick parishoners and manage a parochial school in the afternoon, teach catechsim at night, and then return to my family at 8pm. So yes its possible. Look at all the men who lead secret lives and have other families. It is possible.

No I dont have a spiritual director yet, but yes I should get one. I want to find a priest who talks like a man and wants to save souls…someone like a Fr. John Corapi or Fr. William Casey.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I think you are right my opinion is probably colored. I just wish people would be honest about why the latin church has adopted celibacy because of the beliefs of our church fathers regarding sex, and drop the time management arguments. Technically, I could wake up at 7, say mass at 8, hear confessions from 11-12, visit sick parishoners and manage a parochial school in the afternoon, teach catechsim at night, and then return to my family at 8pm. So yes its possible. Look at all the men who lead secret lives and have other families. It is possible.

I think there is another possibility. The view within the Latin Church that the priesthood is the highest calling while in the eastern Church the view is that the monastic is the highest calling. This is why all professed monks are called father and all professed nuns are called mother in the eastern Churches.

Though management arguments are very vaild. Where would the family live? Right now the rectories are set up for single priests and usually very accessible to the Church offices, there would need to be major renovations or new properties purchased. What about finances, what priests are paid now a family could not live on. What about insurance costs? Educating married men, you would need housing for them and a different formation program (or a slightly modified one) for them and their spouses. How do you handle the formation of single seminarians who are dating? Are they formed like the married seminarians or the ones who plan to be celibate? Then after ordination there is the issue that the married pirest will have to be stationed at the larger more affluent parishes so that he can be compensated well enough for a family but then what about the priests who do chose to be celibate? Must they be stuck at the smaller less weathly parishes to accomidate the married priests with families? Will they be compensated less becasue they do not have families to care for? There is a possible justice issue to look at there.

There are a lot of hurdles that must be addressed and just saying what you are saying will not make those go away.

I am sorry but it is not as simple as you wish to make it seem.

No I dont have a spiritual director yet, but yes I should get one. I want to find a priest who talks like a man and wants to save souls…someone like a Fr. John Corapi or Fr. William Casey.

You really should work at getting one. They won’t be perfect and you should not expect that of them.

 

[JReducation]

Yes but Brother those times are very relevant because it was those beliefs in the Latin Church that influenced the decision for mandatory celibacy. St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc. all believed that sexual intercourse between man and his wife made him unclean. In fact I have read that St. Augustine believed that a man’s erection signified man’s disobedience to God. I also read that St. Thomas Aquinas felt the only reason the marital act was good was because it produced more potenital virgins.

Why can’t latin catholics just be honest about why we have mandatory celibacy for clergy? Why can’t we just say its because our latin fathers believed that marital intercourse made a man unclean to administer the sacraments?

Why don’t we drop these ridiculous arguments about time management. As many eastern catholics have pointed out, many married priests have been much more accessible than celibate ones.

I don’t know where you got time management as a reason for mandatory celibacy in the Roman Church. It certainly is not an official teaching of the Roman Church. The official teaching of the Roman Church is about the sanctity of celibacy over the married state. That teaching is embraced by the universal Church, not just the Roman Church. The Roman Church applies the discipline to her clerics, because she wants her clerics to aspire to the heights of sanctity, not because she wants her clerics to have more free time. If truth be told, the secular clergy works on a clock. Unlike religious who are on 24/7, secular clerics are not. The secular cleric’s day is finished when he goes off duty, on vacation or on his day off. Try finding a secular cleric on a weekend. Unless he’s on call, he’s not available. Most keep doctor’s hours. They have a regular work day and then they have the extras that come up. It definitely is not about time management.

I do believe that Brother David is correct. Your judgement is due to your belief that you are called to be both husband and priest in the Roman Church, which is not possible. God does not call us to what is not possible or to what is forbidden by the Church. The Church binds and God confirms what she binds and works within those parameters, not because God can be handcuffed, but because he has chosen to function that way.

I’ll give you an example. We have a wonderful friar who is a Doctor of Theology, Master of Philsophy and a Doctor of Medicine. He too believed that he was called to both the consecrated life and to the priesthood. The superiors and formation directors thought the same. After his solemn vows, the major superior realized that the man was not called to be ordained. The ordination never happened. The friar accepts that, because Christ does not call outside of the realm of authority, but only through authority.

Years later, he is an active theology professor, phyisican and currently a superior and he’s very happy, but he’s not a priest. Of course, he is a religious. The permission for Holy Orders was recinded after he had made final vows. He’s bound to remain in the order untild death.

The point . . . we have to learn to accept what Christ says through the voice of authority. Neither the Religious Consecration nor Holy Orders are a right or something to be granted because one desires it. They are a privilege that the Church grants to a select few and Christ wills it to be this way. Why me and not John Doe? I have no idea. God’s ways are not always clear.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Shin]

I want to find a priest who talks like a man and wants to save souls

Have you listened to the priests on Audio Sancto or Sensus Traditionis yet? Good stuff. Like ‘Kissing a Vocation Goodbye’.

‘For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.’

Matthew 22:30

‘The number of the predestined is certain, and can neither be increased nor diminished.’

St. Augustine

There is no more marriage and so no more marital relations, in Heaven, and after the resurrection – for all eternity, it’s over and gone. The human race is finished, all the roles have been filled. Each one is in his proper place, forever. One has to give it up sooner or later. Better to give it up now. Entirely, completely, give it up. Read how the saints are in regards to women.

I tend to think hesitance in giving it up tends to be due towards not having rejecting the pleasure and consolations of desire firmly enough. Not using both ‘hate’ and ‘rejection’ and ‘love’ for the work of God. Once it is out of mind, it is far easier to reject, especially compared to spiritual pleasure.

‘Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife.’

1 Corinthians 7:27

‘From now on, let those having wives act as not having them. . .’

1 Corinthians 7:29

It is a dogma of the Faith that the life of virginity is superior to the married life. St. Margaret of Cortona prayed to regain her virginity and it is believed miraculously she did.

‘Sensual pleasure, more than all things else weakens the strength of the soul. The spiritual eye grows blind, the will becomes lame, as soon as this horrible, this filthy passion gains ground.’

St. Thomas Aquinas

In Heaven, there are different rewards… the rewards for virginity are special:

‘The joys of the virgins are not given to the other saints of God.’

St. Augustine

The saints when married often gave up relations altogether and lived together as brother and sister, or mutually agreed to separate and enter into religious orders.

Moreover, the just penance due for a sin, as well as the medicine for it – is generally the opposite of the sin. In other words, if you have sinned through sensual pleasure, it is not only medicine and mortification, but also a proper and just penance to go without that which you sinned regarding.

‘As you do, I also think that virginity is a good thing, better than the nuptial life. I add that it is as superior to the nuptial life as Heaven is superior to earth, or as Angels to men.’

St. John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church

‘I am the Queen of Heaven. Love my Son, because he is most worthy; when you have him, you have everything that is of worth. And he is most desirable; when you have him, you have all that is desirable. Love him, too, because he is most virtuous; when you have him, you have all the virtues. Let me tell you how beautiful his love for my body and soul was and how much honor he gave to my name. He, my own Son, loved me before I loved him, since he is my Creator. He joined my father and mother in so chaste a marriage that there was no more chaste couple then to be found. They never desired to come together except in accordance with the Law, solely for the sake of procreation. When an angel announced to them that they would give birth to the Virgin from whom the salvation of the world would come, they would rather have died than come together in carnal love; lust had died in them. But, I assure you, out of divine charity and on account of the angel’s message they did come together in the flesh, not out of concupiscence but against their will and out of love for God. In this way my flesh was put together from their seed through divine love. When my body had been formed, God sent the created soul into it from his divinity; the soul was immediately sanctified along with the body, and the angels watched over and ministered to it day and night. It is impossible to tell you what a great joy came over my mother when my soul had been sanctified and joined to its body. Afterward, when the course of my life was done, he first raised up my soul, as being mistress of the body, to a place more eminent than others next to the glory of his divinity, and then my body, so that no other creature’s body is so close to God as my own.’

• Revelations of St. Bridget of Sweden

‘Conjugal sexual intercourse for the sake of offspring is not sinful. But sexual intercourse, even with one’s spouse, to satisfy concupiscence [disordered desire] is a venial sin.’

St. Augustine, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘The custom of the Romans from antiquity has always been, after sexual intercourse with one’s spouse, both to clean oneself by washing and to abstain reverently from entering the church for a time. In saying this we do not intend to say that sexual intercourse is sinful. But because every lawful sexual intercourse between spouses cannot take place without bodily pleasure, they are to refrain from entering the holy place. For such pleasure cannot be without sin.’

Pope St. Gregory the Great

‘It is said above that the consent to the delectation of a mortal sin is a mortal sin, and not solely the consent to an act. And so, as fornication is a mortal sin, and much more other species of luxury *, it consequent that consent to the delectation of such a sin is a mortal sin, and not solely the consent to an act. And so, when kisses and caresses and such are done for such delectation, it is consequent that they are mortal sins. And only in this way they are lustful. Hence, this way, because they are lustful, they are mortal sins.’

St. Thomas, Doctor of the Church*

 

[Shin]

There’s deeper insight into the substance and reasons why certain things are the way they are in the above passages for those who don’t reject them flatly, but search for such deeper reasons and reasons.

But you have to love purity and honesty.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I do believe that Brother David is correct. Your judgement is due to your belief that you are called to be both husband and priest in the Roman Church, which is not possible. God does not call us to what is not possible or to what is forbidden by the Church. The Church binds and God confirms what she binds and works within those parameters, not because God can be handcuffed, but because he has chosen to function that way.

I’ll give you an example. We have a wonderful friar who is a Doctor of Theology, Master of Philsophy and a Doctor of Medicine. He too believed that he was called to both the consecrated life and to the priesthood. The superiors and formation directors thought the same. After his solemn vows, the major superior realized that the man was not called to be ordained. The ordination never happened. The friar accepts that, because Christ does not call outside of the realm of authority, but only through authority.

Years later, he is an active theology professor, phyisican and currently a superior and he’s very happy, but he’s not a priest. Of course, he is a religious. The permission for Holy Orders was recinded after he had made final vows. He’s bound to remain in the order untild death.

The point . . . we have to learn to accept what Christ says through the voice of authority. Neither the Religious Consecration nor Holy Orders are a right or something to be granted because one desires it. They are a privilege that the Church grants to a select few and Christ wills it to be this way. Why me and not John Doe? I have no idea. God’s ways are not always clear.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Br. JR,
I want to thank you for bringing up “God will not call you to where you can not go”. I have said it before and I wanted to say it here again but did not want to sound like a broken record.

You story made me think. Yesterday was the Feast of St. Albert of Jerusalem, Bishop and Lawgiver of Carmel. This is one of the intercessions during evening prayer.
To some of us you give special authority so that they may b at the service of the community ; - may we hear your voice in their word and example.
God speaks to us through our superiors.

 

[notredame_999]

I just don’t want to face Jesus Christ after I die and be sent to hell because I didn’t have the committment to give up marriage, children, sex, vacations, a career for him.

I don’t want to be one of those people described in hell by St. Faustina and St. John Bosco.

Jesus Christ said those who love their family more than him are not worthy of him, and to me that is a call to become a priest.

Jesus Christ said he would chop down those trees that did not bear fruit and they would be thrown into everlasting fire; its hard to see how me getting married and having a family would be bearing fruit considering the talents i have in theology and history.

Avoiding hell and warning people of hell is one of the main reasons I want to be a priest.

 

[Shin]

I just don’t want to face Jesus Christ after I die and be sent to hell because I didn’t have the committment to give up marriage, children, sex, vacations, a career for him.

I don’t want to be one of those people described in hell by St. Faustina and St. John Bosco.

Jesus Christ said those who love their family more than him are not worthy of him, and to me that is a call to become a priest.

Jesus Christ said he would chop down those trees that did not bear fruit and they would be thrown into everlasting fire; its hard to see how me getting married and having a family would be bearing fruit considering the talents i have in theology and history.

Avoiding hell and warning people of hell is one of the main reasons I want to be a priest.

FWIF I think that’s a very inspired reason for becoming one. A priest like that will save souls. And one of the ways to find one’s own salvation more secure is to be a part of that.

I have read a saint say that the majority of men go to Hell because of sins of impurity, or at least, not without those sins in their life. How weak must be all of our approaches to these matters because of the immersion in such a world.

Purity, modesty, and saving souls from Hell. These all go together so fundamentally!

And to gain them, temperance, continence, mortification… forgotten virtues and goods to love and feel positively about rather than negatively as the world does…

Marriage and the priestly life both bear fruit… but one far more than the other…

If you are called to be a priest and reject and cut off all that attempts to divert you 100%, you will be rewarded for that in the next life and in this one. If you do not, you will be constantly tethered and troubled at best. One rejects and cuts off the desires that are contrary to one’s purpose completely, forever, one hates them and prefers the Lord and all His rewards for such sacrifice… and they truly are splendid… beyond compare… so that the carnal is just so much dirt beneath one’s feet…

When one is not married one must cut off such desires in any case completely as well, because one is not in the married state, and longing for what one does not have when one cannot have it, even when it is not carnal, is harmful, self-indulgent, and useless. Our emotions and desires have to be properly ordered. The world’s entertainment does not help in this regard, far from it.

'What fervor can a religious have if she reads romances, comedies, or profane poetry? What recollection can she have in meditation or at Communion? Can she be called the spouse of Jesus Christ? Should she not rather be called the spouse of a sinful world? Even young women in the world that are in the habit of reading such books are generally not virtuous seculars.

But some one may say, What harm is there in reading romances and profane poetry when they contain nothing immodest? Do you ask what harm? Behold the harm: the reading of such works kindles the concupiscence of the senses, and awakens the passions; these easily gain the consent of the will, or at least render it so weak that when the occasion of any dangerous affection occurs the devil finds the soul already prepared to allow itself to be conquered. A wise author has said that by the reading of such pernicious books heresy has made, and makes every day, great progress; because such reading has given and gives increased strength to libertinism. The poison of these books enters gradually into the soul; it first makes itself master of the understanding, then infects the will, and in the end kills the soul. The devil finds no means more efficacious and secure of sending a young person to perdition than the reading of such poisoned works.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

 

[simple_soul]

*Dear notradame,

I do believe you would be very wise to take ByzCath’s advise and find a good Spiritual Director. *

I just don’t want to face Jesus Christ after I die and be sent to hell because I didn’t have the committment to give up marriage, children, sex, vacations, a career for him.

I don’t want to be one of those people described in hell by St. Faustina and St. John Bosco.

Jesus Christ said those who love their family more than him are not worthy of him, and to me that is a call to become a priest.

*When I heard God calling me to the married life it was my greatest fear that my love for my husband and children would become greater than my love for Him. For some reason, that I can only credit Him for, this never happened. My love for God is still greater and it keeps growing. What I have found out also is that the deeper my love for God grows the deeper the love for my family grows. Personally I do not believe I would have ever married if I had not been trying to put God first in everything. *

Jesus Christ said he would chop down those trees that did not bear fruit and they would be thrown into everlasting fire; its hard to see how me getting married and having a family would be bearing fruit considering the talents i have in theology and history.

Avoiding hell and warning people of hell is one of the main reasons I want to be a priest.

*This is why a good Spiritual Director would be so good to talk to. I so wish I had known about them when I was younger and going through my discernment. I do believe it would have saved me a lot of scruples at the time and that I still have to “deal with” from time-to-time.

I do hope and pray I have not added any more confusion,

 

[JReducation]

I just don’t want to face Jesus Christ after I die and be sent to hell because I didn’t have the committment to give up marriage, children, sex, vacations, a career for him.

I don’t want to be one of those people described in hell by St. Faustina and St. John Bosco.

Jesus Christ said those who love their family more than him are not worthy of him, and to me that is a call to become a priest.

Jesus Christ said he would chop down those trees that did not bear fruit and they would be thrown into everlasting fire; its hard to see how me getting married and having a family would be bearing fruit considering ** the talents i have in theology and history.

Avoiding hell and warning people of hell is one of the main reasons I want to be a priest.**

Bold is mine. I just gave you an example of a man who is a theologian and philosopher, but is not a priest. In fact, we have many such friars. Look at Br. Daniel Sulmasy, OFM. He’s a theologian, philosopher and physician. God is using his gifts to serve the cause of life. I have an M.Div, STD and a PhD and I’m not a priest, but I am a superior to several priests.

I’m not trying to discourage you from becoming a priest. I am trying to help you see that your reasons need some reflection and discernment. There are many ways to preach and teach. There are many ways to contribute to the salvation of souls. I just remembered Mother Teresa. There are few priests who can claim to have influenced as many souls as she did.

We put our talents at God’s disposal and let him guide. Don’t try to lock yourself into a box that says priest. Open your heart and mind, listen, discern, pray and dialogue with a good spiritual director. God will show the way.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Layman]

Here’re my ideas on the celibacy rule:

**- In sex, you are trying to bring a divine thing, a soul, down to Earth, into flesh. **

Occultists would talk avout things like ‘vibrations’ and ‘energies’. We might speculate that in sex you are operating a particular spiritual frequency.

**- In religious rites, you are trying to raise your soul up to Heaven. **

You are trying to operate at a different ‘frequency’ so as to communicate better with Heaven and get graces from its residents in return.

- Celibacy is an offering to God. A sacrifice. A constant, lifelong one, thus, valued.
It’s a constant discipline. You learn to master yourself.

Also:

Children, who don’t have the hormones or bodily attributes necessary to think of sexual intercource as a good, are often scandalised and repulsed if they find out what’s involved. I think they’re closer to the mind of Heaven in this. They’re innocent, they don’t have the bodily appetites and thus sex is frightful.

Kind of like how you feel about it in old age, at the other end of your life(?)

 

[simple_soul]

Here’re my ideas on the celibacy rule:

*Dear Layman,

I just wanted to add my “ideas” on marriage.
*

**- In sex, you are trying to bring a divine thing, a soul, down to Earth, into flesh. **

*I do not believe “in sex” has anything to do with it. I believe it is all about Love. Not only does it allow God to bring a soul, new life down to Earth, into flesh, but I believe it also raises souls to heaven. *

Occultists would talk avout things like ‘vibrations’ and ‘energies’. We might speculate that in sex you are operating a particular spiritual frequency.

I have no idea what this is about so I will leave it alone.

**- In religious rites, you are trying to raise your soul up to Heaven. **

I believe marriage should be about this also. Actually I believe every vocation should be about this.

You are trying to operate at a different ‘frequency’ so as to communicate better with Heaven and get graces from its residents in return.

Different frequencies yes. But for some, marriage is the better way to communicate better with Heaven to get graces from it’s residents in return.

- Celibacy is an offering to God. A sacrifice. A constant, lifelong one, thus, valued.
It’s a constant discipline. You learn to master yourself.

So is marriage and yes you still need to learn to “master yourself” in marriage.

Also:

Children, who don’t have the hormones or bodily attributes necessary to think of sexual intercource as a good, are often scandalised and repulsed if they find out what’s involved. I think they’re closer to the mind of Heaven in this. They’re innocent, they don’t have the bodily appetites and thus sex is frightful.

Kind of like how you feel about it in old age, at the other end of your life(?)

*I am sorry but there really is something not quite right about these statements. I believe we all should be repulsed at “having sex.” Now making Love is something very beautiful and special. It is being opened to and centering God in the relationship. What is repulsive about that?

Anyway, I just thought I would interject my :twocents:

As always I hope and pray it makes some sense.*

 

[Layman]

Whether Love with a capital L is involved or not, by sex a soul will be incarnated. How many children a product of lust and not Love? By sex a divine, supernatural being is brought down to Earth and flesh. Via religion, we are trying to make our way back Home.

Factor in the shenanigans and obsessions sex can lead to and you can see why the Church mandates celibacy as a higher estate for a clergyman.

 

[simple_soul]

Whether Love with a capital L is involved or not, by sex a soul will be incarnated. How many children a product of lust and not Love? By sex a divine, supernatural being is brought down to Earth and flesh.

Dear Layman,
All we have to do is look at society and we can see the results of children being born into this world as a result of these reasons. I know life only happens through God. God will work for His Divine plan to unfold with or with out our cooperation. All I am trying to say is that we should be joining Him and not be in a marriage out of love and lust for the marriage in and of itself but for the Love of God.

Via religion, we are trying to make our way back Home.

*I most sincerely have no clue what you mean by this comment. *

**Factor in the shenanigans and obsessions sex can lead to **and you can see why the Church mandates celibacy as a higher estate for a clergyman.

*I do believe that this is why I agree with the Church when she does say celibacy is a higher estate.
I might be getting terms mixed up here, but I believe it is called the Mystical Union or Marriage between a soul and it’s Creator that we are all called to have. I believe that is what the whole Universal Call to Holiness is about. Or, maybe I missed something. I believe some of us are called to this Mystical Union with God through being single and celibate and some of us are called to it by not being single and celibate.
I believe that if the ones who are called to this Mystical Union with God, through a married vocation, keep in mind the higher estate of the celibate life and not make the “lust” and “obsessions” that can be found in it the reason for marriage and make God the reason for Marriage. Then I believe all the “shenanigans” and “obsessions” with “sex” within marriage will not be. It will be about Love. Love of God and each other. Then maybe our society will start showing the results of Marriages centered around Christ instead of “Lust” and “Obsessions.”

As always I hope and pray this makes some sense.
*

 

[Layman]

Dear Simple Soul,

This thread is about celibacy. Previous posters have argued about why a Roman Catholic priest should be so. The topic veered towards why our religion values it. I was trying to give ‘mystical’ reasons why. We’re not talking about love and marriage, etc.

 

[simple_soul]

Dear Simple Soul,

This thread is about celibacy. Previous posters have argued about why a Roman Catholic priest should be so. The topic veered towards why our religion values it. I was trying to give ‘mystical’ reasons why. We’re not talking about love and marriage, etc.

*I know Layman.

It’s just that notredame had expressed a concern about the love for a family becoming greater than a love for Jesus.
He did not want to become unworthy of Him by getting married and then having his love for his family become greater than his Love for Jesus.
I just wanted to share with him how I believed marriage might not do this when it is centered on God’s Will and not on our will.

Your post opened the door nicely for me to be able to demonstrate how I believe this is possible.
I apologize that my method of using your post came off as attacking. But the way you described the reasons for being celibate are reasons that I used to hear of how marriage was always tainted with evil/sin because of “sex.”
If I insulted you or caused any confusion for any one please forgive me.

 

[notredame_999]

*I know Layman.

It’s just that notredame had expressed a concern about the love for a family becoming greater than a love for Jesus.
He did not want to become unworthy of Him by getting married and then having his love for his family become greater than his Love for Jesus.
I just wanted to share with him how I believed marriage might not do this when it is centered on God’s Will and not on our will.

Your post opened the door nicely for me to be able to demonstrate how I believe this is possible.
I apologize that my method of using your post came off as attacking. But the way you described the reasons for being celibate are reasons that I used to hear of how marriage was always tainted with evil/sin because of “sex.”
If I insulted you or caused any confusion for any one please forgive me.

What I just don’t understand is how the church defines celibacy as a “gift.” To me it seems like just a matter of will-power, like all the men who are in prison and all the people who for whatever reason never get married. The church demands that those people stay celibate as well.