Celibacy in marraige

[jegow]

byzmelkite:

Could I do things over again I would consider the monastic life instead. I did consider it. I am grateful for my wife and children but I can’t help but feel disgusted for the sexual lust and desire I feel. God did not mean for us to be animals but rational spirits. Sex, while pleasurable, is disgusting.

Yeah, the more I study and look into morality and marriage I find that there are so many ways to ruin sexual purity. I think that sex is a beautiful thing but I also think that everyone who is called to that life is called to perform it so as to remain pure (If that makes any sense). Really the reason for looking into this so much is because I know that sex can be a beautiful thing but that it is not the only thing married people do, that the married are also responsible to work towards their holiness and the holiness of their spouse. I think it can be a challenge to married people to grow in that holiness if they live a life of sexual impurity. Anyways, thank you for your replies.

 

[byzmelkite]

jegow:

Yeah, the more I study and look into morality and marriage I find that there are so many ways to ruin sexual purity. I think that sex is a beautiful thing but I also think that everyone who is called to that life is called to perform it so as to remain pure (If that makes any sense). Really the reason for looking into this so much is because I know that sex can be a beautiful thing but that it is not the only thing married people do, that the married are also responsible to work towards their holiness and the holiness of their spouse. I think it can be a challenge to married people to grow in that holiness if they live a life of sexual impurity. Anyways, thank you for your replies.

And thank you. Its nice to see someone appreciating how difficult it is to remain pure within marriage. Its not easy at all.

 

[porthos11]

Krasnaya Kometa:

Not only that, but how can anyone who respects their wife make (or let) her do that? And how could he ever kiss her afterwards?

Again, if you don’t like it, it’s fine. All that is said is that it is not morally wrong to stimulate your spouse for as long as it leads to vaginal intercourse. It is not disordered for as long as it is not an end unto itself.

Only when such things are used by themselves, without completing the conjugal act does it become morally wrong, even mortally sinful.

 

[byzmelkite]

porthos11:

Again, if you don’t like it, it’s fine. All that is said is that it is not morally wrong to stimulate your spouse for as long as it leads to vaginal intercourse. It is not disordered for as long as it is not an end unto itself.

Only when such things are used by themselves, without completing the conjugal act does it become morally wrong, even mortally sinful.

Technically its okay, but one is walking a dangerously thin line. Mouths were meant for eating food and talking, not for doing…er, well, that.

 

[cynic]

byzmelkite:

I am quite sympathetic with you. I say its “technically” permissible insofar as it is used only to stimulate the genitals. My understanding is that this is generally acceptable according to the Church’s pastoral practice. That being said, I think you might be right that sodomy is sodomy whether one does it to finality or not. In that case, all genital touching with anything other than the genitals would be sinful. This would mean that even petting in marriage would be sinful. Personally, I think that this is why it is best not to marry and choose the monastic life. It is just too hard for a married person to get to heaven. Could I do things over again I would consider the monastic life instead. I did consider it. I am grateful for my wife and children but I can’t help but feel disgusted for the sexual lust and desire I feel. God did not mean for us to be animals but rational spirits. Sex, while pleasurable, is disgusting.

you have to be a troll. Sex is not disgusting, emotions are not all bad - but at least it’s finally clear where your coming from. Couldn’t be clearer. It sounds like an egotist “I’m stronger and more self hating than any of you” kind of thing, but if that’s how you get your kicks…

 

[Christian4life]

I don’t really get how anyone could say sex is disgusting…between married people it is meant to be an expression of unity and intimacy. Even in my worst times I don’t find it disgusting, just annoying.

God invented sex and procreation. Not us, not the devil. And it was good.

 

[jegow]

cynic:

you have to be a troll. Sex is not disgusting, emotions are not all bad - but at least it’s finally clear where your coming from. Couldn’t be clearer. It sounds like an egotist “I’m stronger and more self hating than any of you” kind of thing, but if that’s how you get your kicks…

• You’ve met trolls before?
• Where did you get self hating.
• Did you realize that he was replying to several other posts that I had written? Because I was talking about actions - not emotions.

 

[porthos11]

byzmelkite:

Sex, while pleasurable, is disgusting.

You insult God and his wisdom by questioning his creation. Male and female he created them, and it was all very good.

Not liking foreplay and oral sex is one thing. Dismissing the holy and sacramental expression of married love as disgusting is outright heretical.

I’m outta here.

 

[byzmelkite]

porthos11:

You insult God and his wisdom by questioning his creation. Male and female he created them, and it was all very good.

Not liking foreplay and oral sex is one thing. Dismissing the holy and sacramental expression of married love as disgusting is outright heretical.

I’m outta here.

Tell that to the church fathers. Maybe you shouldn’t be so addicted to your passions.

 

[jegow]

Christian4life:

I don’t really get how anyone could say sex is disgusting…between married people it is meant to be an expression of unity and intimacy. Even in my worst times I don’t find it disgusting, just annoying.

God invented sex and procreation. Not us, not the devil. And it was good.

• So it’s not disgusting but you say, “annoying”.
• I guess then I don’t really get how people who marry would say that sex is annoying unless there were reasons for it to be - oh - you didn’t mention those.
• Also, God creates - not invents.

 

[byzmelkite]

cynic:

you have to be a troll. Sex is not disgusting, emotions are not all bad - but at least it’s finally clear where your coming from. Couldn’t be clearer. It sounds like an egotist “I’m stronger and more self hating than any of you” kind of thing, but if that’s how you get your kicks…

This coming from someone who calls himself a Cynic. Go take your pop psychology somewhere else.

 

[Christian4life]

jegow:

• So it’s not disgusting but you say, “annoying”.
• I guess then I don’t really get how people who marry would say that sex is annoying unless there were reasons for it to be - oh - you didn’t mention those.
• Also, God creates - not invents.

None of your business!!!

 

[jegow]

porthos11:

Not liking foreplay and oral sex is one thing.

The point here is not whether certain forms of foreplay are likeable but morally permissible (i.e. not sinful). Of course people find sin alluring - would they be tempted to do it otherwise? Allurment doesn’t make all forms of foreplay right and neither should likeability.

 

[byzmelkite]

Its become clear to me that I do have a nasty personality at times and I 'm not sure if I feel bad about it. I’m sick of all of this love and compassion and ****. The Church reeks with hypocrisy at all levels and the perverted homosexual hierarchy expects the laity to follow the church’s teachings. Its absurd. They pronounce on all matters of politics and social issues but don’t say one word about what 's actually contained in Scripture, “Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins.” It seems to me today that the Church is a joke and just wait, in 30 years they will decide that contraception is perhaps only a venial sin and then in another 30 years a “development” will take place and Vatican theologians will twist the tradition into a pretzel explaining how contraception isn’t necessarily sinful and the Death Penalty and War are always sinful. I can see it coming now. I’m only 35. Don’t mind me, I’m just practicing for my old age when I get to become a true curmudgeon .

I must confess that Tertullian and the Montanists and the later Donatists are beginning to make a bit of sense to me. Time to go back and read my St. Augustine.

 

[Doihavtasay]

"Who here can HONESTLY say that they can’t afford another child. I know there are people making 10% as much as you that have at least as many kids and are getting along just fine. It’s all about managing what you have, working hard, and being grateful for what you have! "

I can HONESTLY say we can’t afford another child. Or maybe it should be a .

I have been following this thread because we have had very little sex since the birth of our 7th child. We have always just let God decide and have never regreted that, but our last child has caused us to pause and think about things.

She has 2 major heart defects, has had 2 major surgeries and will be needing one more for sure and most likely 2-3 more in her life time, 4 helicopter rides ( you know they cost $5000 EACH?!?!) countless minor surgeries and tests. Has a number of other chronic health issues including a small airway and asthma that keeps me on my toes.

When we say she has a million dollar smile we mean it! Literally. We have pretty decent insurance but even a small percentage of really large, constant and never ending bills adds up. We are so close to going to down finacially, it’s scary.

We have not taken any kind of vacation for 5 years. We have all old falling apart cars, kids don’t have the lastest clothes. We have cut lots of corners and even if we cut them all, the bills are still out of control. To top this off I have an older son who has been having lots of problems and really needs to get a dx but he is 18 and unless we pay for him to enroll in college full time, they are going to cut him off, but right not in his current condition, he can’t handle college. It’s a catch 22 alright.

To top it off we get NO help from anyone, state, federal, etc… they only look at our income, not the bills we owe. So they steal 40% of my dh’s income so we can support other people with our taxes, while we can’t support ourselves.

I have not been able to work due to her being sick often, and dh already works a 60 hour a week. Older kids are doing the best they can to support themselves and pay for their college as we can’t help with that either. We didn’t even get a break for her bills there cause many of them were put on credit cards so she could continue going to the Drs and so they are not technically “paid!” and don’t ‘count’ !!:banghead:

So yes… we are avoiding another baby at this time and prolly forever. Hoping menapause comes SOON!!!:dancing:

 

[byzmelkite]

Okay, its clear to me that I’m becoming more bitter every day. I haven’t received communion in weeks and I can barely drag myself to Mass on Sunday and we have a good liturgy. I am guessing it won’t be too long before I’m kicked off of these forums so I’ll just try to spread a little more misery and pessimism to compensate for the excessive optimism of most people. The world and the Church are going down the tubes. Yeehah folks and its all just one big joke. I think I should have been a kindergarten teacher. Then I could have innoculated minds against hope and optimism before it was too late for them. Oh well. Don’t worry. I won’t hang around on here forever to annoy you. If I don’t leave I’ll be booted. The question is will I even be a Christian 2 weeks from now? Who knows? God, I suppose.

 

[jegow]

byzmelkite:

the Church is a joke.

Remember, there is a difference between the Church and her members. The Church having the four marks - One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic - differ from those members of Her’s that unfortunately have not taken the call to holiness too seriously. We must always distinguish between the two. The Church will always be holy - it’s Her members that might need some working on.

 

[Christian4life]

"Who here can HONESTLY say that they can’t afford another child. I know there are people making 10% as much as you that have at least as many kids and are getting along just fine. It’s all about managing what you have, working hard, and being grateful for what you have! "

I can HONESTLY say we can’t afford another child. Or maybe it should be a .

I have been following this thread because we have had very little sex since the birth of our 7th child. We have always just let God decide and have never regreted that, but our last child has caused us to pause and think about things.

She has 2 major heart defects, has had 2 major surgeries and will be needing one more for sure and most likely 2-3 more in her life time, 4 helicopter rides ( you know they cost $5000 EACH?!?!) countless minor surgeries and tests. Has a number of other chronic health issues including a small airway and asthma that keeps me on my toes.

When we say she has a million dollar smile we mean it! Literally. We have pretty decent insurance but even a small percentage of really large, constant and never ending bills adds up. We are so close to going to down finacially, it’s scary.

We have not taken any kind of vacation for 5 years. We have all old falling apart cars, kids don’t have the lastest clothes. We have cut lots of corners and even if we cut them all, the bills are still out of control. To top this off I have an older son who has been having lots of problems and really needs to get a dx but he is 18 and unless we pay for him to enroll in college full time, they are going to cut him off, but right not in his current condition, he can’t handle college. It’s a catch 22 alright.

To top it off we get NO help from anyone, state, federal, etc… they only look at our income, not the bills we owe. So they steal 40% of my dh’s income so we can support other people with our taxes, while we can’t support ourselves.

I have not been able to work due to her being sick often, and dh already works a 60 hour a week. Older kids are doing the best they can to support themselves and pay for their college as we can’t help with that either. We didn’t even get a break for her bills there cause many of them were put on credit cards so she could continue going to the Drs and so they are not technically “paid!” and don’t ‘count’ !!:banghead:

So yes… we are avoiding another baby at this time and prolly forever. Hoping menapause comes SOON!!!:dancing:

Okay, first off, bless you for letting God decide. Second, do you have health insurance? If you don’t, get some! Now, there are lots of organizations that will help you pay for the costs of her medical treatment, especially since she is a child. Don’t be afraid to ask! We all need things from each other at times, and there ain’t no shame in it, especially when it’s something you can’t help like an illness. I can refer you to these organizations if you like.

Third, why isn’t your church helping out?? We are SUPPOSED to be a community who helps each other out, that’s the way it was intended in the Bible. If someone has plenty, they should be willing to share with those who don’t. I once went down to a church and asked them to pay for antibiotics for me when I was a poor college kid and had a sinus infection, and they did, no other questions asked. I found out I’d had walking pneumonia, not just a sinus infection, so a little humility goes a long way.

Now, I’m not convinced your problem is from too many kids. Medical bills are a pain in the neck for us all. I have had chronic problems that we can barely afford the medicine for in the past as well, and there is only 3 of us!

Still, we can talk about how bad we have it, while we are sitting in our nice comfortable homes, with food to eat, and a place to pee. Which is a heck of a lot more than some people have! My mom ended up in a trailer park due to illness, and she’s too proud to get any help from anyone. So phooey. She is doing okay though! You adjust to trailer park living and it isn’t so different!

 

[YinYangMom]

byzmelkite:

The question is will I even be a Christian 2 weeks from now? Who knows? God, I suppose.

Once baptized, always a Christian.
Whether or not you are a practicing one is another matter.

Why haven’t you been to Mass?
Why haven’t you gone to confession?
Why do you want to walk away?

And even if you do walk away, you don’t have to leave the forums…we’ll keep you company until you see your way back home.

 

[byzmelkite]

Christian4life:

Third, why isn’t your church helping out?? We are SUPPOSED to be a community who helps each other out, that’s the way it was intended in the Bible. If someone has plenty, they should be willing to share with those who don’t. I once went down to a church and asked them to pay for antibiotics for me when I was a poor college kid and had a sinus infection, and they did, no other questions asked. I found out I’d had walking pneumonia, not just a sinus infection, so a little humility goes a long way.

QUOTE]
Since when has the local parish ever helped out a member in a situation such as this with insurance, house payment, car payment, etc.? No, the Church’s pastors are too busy fighting welfare reform and illegal immigration and promoting harmony among the world’s religions to do what the Gospel actually teaches. The interesting thing is that Jesus never commanded the Church or the State to set up social welfare agencies for unbelievers. The sign of of Christian was how you treated a believer. All of the Gospel passages that talk about feeding the poor, visiting the prisoner, etc. in Matthew are addressed to believers and are an expression of how they are to treat other believers.