Celibate & Married (NFP)

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underacloud said:
John,

I know you’re living in a tinderbox, but have you discussed with her from an objective standpoint the success rates of various forms of birth control?

eg if you look at secular resources (eg simply try wikipedia for starters) the failure rate for condom use is listed at 2% for perfect use and 10-18% for typical use. That is, a couple who use condoms (in the typical manner) for contraception will on average have a 10-18% chance of pregnancy per year.

For someone desperate to avoid pregnancy, it’s a bad option! And that’s from a purely secular perspective.

She seems closed to NFP of course, but a very strict approach to NFP, where a couple only has sex once ovulation is confirmed, is about as good as it gets for avoiding pregnancy. Quite simply, once an egg is released, it will die within a day (maybe two as an absolute max or to allow for a possible double ovulation) and after that until menstration, there is 0% chance of pregnancy. There’s still a chance of getting pregnant if you get the timing of the ovulation wrong, which when charting temps can be affected by colds/flu for example, but in a cycle where you are confident that ovulation has occured, you are fine. The challenge of course is to convince her of this.

The other thought I had is that you say she converted to the faith, but have you considered that perhaps she didn’t really want to, or wasn’t ready for all that it meant, eg teachings on contraception? It is commendable that you will not use contraception, but perhaps she feels somewhat that your views are forced on her? I’m just thinking out aloud here…

I really feel for you John and will offer some prayers.
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I see that you also grasp The Simple NFP Method for Sex Once a Month concept that I have advocated to my wife - but she is totally resistant to it right now. The problem is, she doesn’t know her own body - I know some things about how her body works that she resists learning for some reason.

Regarding her conversion, it was a long time in coming (5 years of marriage) but she did it on her own freewill, I never forced her (as if she could be forced to do anything - this thread should be evidence that the opposite is true). She was on board with NFP until we reached the two child 1 boy/1 girl limit she had in her mind - now she is willing to starve us both (yes she is sexually unfulfilled too) - for fear of getting pregnant again. She will not take steps to learn ways around this impasse.

This all amounts to me thinking she really doesn’t love me, at least doesn’t love me enough to try to understand my side, or to try to learn more about NFP and her own body so that we could at least have some sexual relations, even if its only once a month.

She is very stubborn, and has shown me for 5 years that she will stand firm. Sometimes I think she wants to drive me to 1) leave, or 2) have an affair, or 3) fall into something like pornography so she can have something to blame on me, or 4) break down and admit she was right, put on a condom and go for it. All four of these options would be sins in my book, so by God’s grace they will not happen. I think this has frustrated her to no end, and makes her hate me more.

thank you for your continued prayers

—john
 
Hello, John,

I am saddened to read about your situation. Is your wife still treating you disrespectfully? Whatever the state of your marriage, she needs to treat you with respect. Here is something that has worked for me.

When your wife starts nagging or spewing hateful words, don’t stand there and take it. But don’t respond verbally either. Instead, simply walk out of the house without saying a word. Then, take a walk around the block or a short drive in the car or something. And don’t answer your cell phone if she calls. Better yet, leave the phone at home.

When you return, don’t say anything to your wife unless she speaks to you respectfully. If she does talk to you respectfully at this point, say “I went out for a bit.” No more details or explanation than that.

If instead she continues with the ugly talk, turn around promptly leave the house again. Take a walk or whatever, then come back.

Be consistent about exiting the premises when she is ugly to you. Must be consistent. It is hard to yell at a blank wall for long. This is your way of demanding respect in a calm manner. But don’t tell her the ‘whys’ of all this. She’s a smart gal - she’ll figure it out soon enough.

What you don’t want to do is get in a verbal confrontation with your wife. Woman are generally better at arguments and you’ll just get your butt kicked. You need to communicate your demand for respect by actions, not words.

And always treat your wife with respect. Never raise your voice to her - hard as it may be. Always respect, no matter what. But for your sake and your children’s sakes, the ugly talk from your wife must stop.

One other thing… I’d recommend no affection from you towards your wife unless she treats you respectfully for an extended period of time (up to you how long that is). That means no backrubs or the like. If you give her a backrub after she abuses you, that is rewarding her for bad behavior.

Take this all for whatever it’s worth. Good luck.
 
Groo said:
Hello, John,

I am saddened to read about your situation. Is your wife still treating you disrespectfully? Whatever the state of your marriage, she needs to treat you with respect. Here is something that has worked for me.

When your wife starts nagging or spewing hateful words, don’t stand there and take it. But don’t respond verbally either. Instead, simply walk out of the house without saying a word. Then, take a walk around the block or a short drive in the car or something. And don’t answer your cell phone if she calls. Better yet, leave the phone at home.

When you return, don’t say anything to your wife unless she speaks to you respectfully. If she does talk to you respectfully at this point, say “I went out for a bit.” No more details or explanation than that.

If instead she continues with the ugly talk, turn around promptly leave the house again. Take a walk or whatever, then come back.

Be consistent about exiting the premises when she is ugly to you. Must be consistent. It is hard to yell at a blank wall for long. This is your way of demanding respect in a calm manner. But don’t tell her the ‘whys’ of all this. She’s a smart gal - she’ll figure it out soon enough.

What you don’t want to do is get in a verbal confrontation with your wife. Woman are generally better at arguments and you’ll just get your butt kicked. You need to communicate your demand for respect by actions, not words.

And always treat your wife with respect. Never raise your voice to her - hard as it may be. Always respect, no matter what. But for your sake and your children’s sakes, the ugly talk from your wife must stop.

One other thing… I’d recommend no affection from you towards your wife unless she treats you respectfully for an extended period of time (up to you how long that is). That means no backrubs or the like. If you give her a backrub after she abuses you, that is rewarding her for bad behavior.

Take this all for whatever it’s worth. Good luck.
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thank you for this very sound advice - I have been doing this sort of thing, turn and walk into another room when she starts going off on me, or simply be quiet and non-responsive when I can’t get away - I particularly try to go in the other room and have fun times with my kids, and let her stew and hear us having fun, from her facebook puddle.

I have resolved to put the kids in the car and drive somewhere, anywhere, next time she screams and loses it in front of the kiddos, they don’t need to be around all that -

thanks again
—john
 
oh, another thing I did, on Friday, was send her an email, telling her I found us a couple books at the library - one for me, which was “What Wives Wish their Husbands Knew About Women” by Dr. James Dobson, and one for her: “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” by Dr. Laura Schlessinger. I asked her if she wanted me to reserve them at the library. She never responded, and never mentioned it at all this weekend.

I was hoping even the blurb I included in the email about Dr. Laura’s book might jar something in her:

“In her newest book, Schlessinger (10 Stupid Things Women Do to Mess Up Their Lives) relies upon her experience in private practice, radio and letters she received from men and women in tackling the issue of women who mistreat their men and suffer the consequences of unhappiness. The women who criticize their husbands in the stories that Schlessinger relates are depressed in their marriages and feel little love from their husbands. Unabashedly asserting that man is a “very simple creature,” who needs only “direct communication, respect, appreciation, food, and good loving’” to respond with devotion, compassion and love, this controversial marriage and family therapist claims that every woman can achieve a deeply satisfying marriage if she adheres to certain fundamentals men require. Preparing dinner, caring for the children without complaint, greeting her husband with a kiss and engaging in sexual intimacy instead of “tearing down a husband’s necessary sense of strength and importance” can result in the harmonious marriage women crave. While many of her listeners and readers claim her unequivocal advice has salvaged teetering marriages and improved marital harmony, others perceive Schlessinger as a throwback to what many see as years of female oppression in the home. (Jan.) (c) Copyright PWxyz, LLC. All rights reserved”

I have requested Dr. Dobson’s book and will read it anyway as a sign of good faith on my part, I just wish she would read the book I suggested - I have heard really good things about it.

—john
 
Did NFP fail for you guys? Or does she know people who have had it fail? Is this the source of the mistrust of NFP? (and yes, I get that this isn’t the whole problem) - but there are a couple of electronic aides out there - rather pricey (but I bet you’d do just about anything to get her back to being intimate with you) - maybe you can take away her excuses -then maybe that will get her some counseling - but please, try to remember the woman you married - the one you fell in love with - she’s still in there - depression can mess with your head badly - and make you push away the one’s you love most. Think of what you would give to have the feeling of being with the woman you married - knowing her as you did that day - whenever I get angry at my husband, I try to go back and read some of my journal entries or some of his letters to me.
I know it’s nowhere near the same as your situation - I just thought maybe some of this might help
God Bless
Rye
 
Sorry about the above post - I read all of the thread and realized you had not been really avoiding with the second pregnancy - is she still seeing the psychiatrist? Would sending her some information on the electronic aids help, maybe? (I realize she say no to everything but I don’t know - I just feel so awful for you! I can’t imagine not being with my husband for a couple of weeks let alone how long you’re going)
God Bless, good luck and let us know
Rye
 
Oh man, I have read your whole story, and it’s really heartbreakening to read all this.
My prayers are with you dear man, and also for her, that she should get out of the depression, and change back in to a loving mother and wife (without all the shouting etc…)
 
This is an interesting thread, and I’m sorry to hear that the person who posted is having such a difficult time of it.

I can’t help but wondering if there is some kind of underlying problem that has nothing to do with NFP.

Even if the wife can’t use the pill, there are certainly other methods that she could personally use. So if she keeps wanting her husband to use something, why doesn’t she use something herself? I’m not suggesting that she should do that. I’m just saying that I think it’s very odd that she doesn’t. I’m suggesting that since she knows her husband won’t, this conveniently gives her the option of living a celibate life.

Has she had a problem in her past that gives her some kind of post-traumatic stress syndrome? Also, I will say that children can be so nerve-wracking that a person can feel that they’d rather die than get pregnant again. This is especially true for certain personality types.
 
thanks for all the concern, truly

She is on Zoloft, which has helped with her extreme irritability and rage, but hasn’t helped at all with her lack of intimacy, or general putting off on me tasks around the house and with caring for the children -

I think the main reasons she wants to avoid more children at all costs is her age (39, which she perceives as too old), our money is tight, and her in general feeling out of control if we have more than 2.

But like I said, she doesn’t seem to love me or want intimacy since she isn’t trying anything on her end to remedy the situation - she has resolved to starve me and blame me for it all.

I am not aware of any trauma in her life, I really don’t think that’s it - she was spoiled growing up and is used to getting her way even as an adult. If she doesn’t get her way, she makes everyone around her miserable until they give in.

I’ve probably spoiled her myself in our 14 years of marriage, by being so nice and acquiesing to her whims, and overlooking big issues and allowing emotional and verbal abuse to occur without responding in kind - I’ve grown weary with being so mild and spineless, and it hasn’t helped create a happy life for me and my family - people who are nice and accomodating get taken advantage of, and taken for granted, sooner or later - and also hated over the few times that they stand firm and don’t cave, as in this NFP issue.

—john
 
I don’t mean to pile on in any way, but I’m guessing that given her rage and whatnot, she’s not sexually going without by some other means. Perhaps that’s a bit of a projection given my knowledge of what happens in a marriage when one party gets more and more angry with the other seemingly out of nowhere, but that’s my two cents anyway.

A spoiled brat will hold out for a certain amount of time to get his or her way, but eventually he or she will find some way to circumvent the blockade in secret and still complain about the situation as it appears on the surface.
 
I wonder if the one thing she needs and wants, but may not know it, is for you to stand up to her. Not in a mean or ugly way, but in a firm way to let her know that what she is doing to you is not ok. Whatever you may have done in the past, you do not deserve to abused.

Would you want your kids to take the kind of abuse that you are taking? Your kids are going to model their future relationships on what they see between you and your wife. Would you tell your kids to stay in an abusive relationship just because they’re married? I can’t imagine that you would.

Whatever you do, you are going to need support. Consider getting a counselor for yourself. Some employers have employee assistance programs where they’ll pay for a few sessions for free. If there’s a men’s group at your church or a nearby church, even if it’s a Protestant church, consider joining. Don’t be afraid to ask for help.

Also, it might be a good time for you to start contacting lawyers. I know you don’t believe in divorce, but if she does and files for divorce, you may have no choice. Better to be prepared than blindsided.

Finally, what has helped me more than anything is praying a daily holy hour in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Bishop Sheen prayed a holy hour every day for 50+ years. That hour a day has given me more strength and joy than I ever thought possible. This will all work out in the end. May not seem like it, but God loves you and He’s going to see you through this.
 
I know that we’re not supposed to give medical advice on these threads, but it is a known fact that many antidepressants have side effects that are worse than what they’re trying to cure. You said that birth control pills make her sick, so it seems that she must be extra sensitive to medication.

It’s just something to think about.
 
thanks for the additional thoughts and advice - I don’t think she is having an affair, if that was what was alluded to, no opportunity for that, unless it is a “virtual” one, online, but I doubt that too -

Near my work downtown, there are parishes that offer a daily Mass, so I attend when I can, and one has Perpetual Adoration, which has been a sustaining force for me over the years - I try to keep in good shape spiritually

Last night, we had a talk - she had wondered why I had been quiet the past few days - I really didn’t know what to say over the past few days, mulling all this over, didn’t really feel like just acting like everything was fine - also I didn’t want to sound whiney by saying “you’re not having sex with me,” although it is a lot more that that: “I’m tired of you yelling at me over little things, I’m tired of you being on facebook all the time and letting the house go to shambles, I’m tired of you not cooking dinner for your family, etc etc” - I really don’t want to argue, so I keep quiet - I’ve mentioned these things before, and it didn’t go well at all.

She kept bugging me about being quiet, so I asked why she had ignored the emails I’d recently sent (see earlier in this thread) - she tried to act like she didn’t know which emails I meant, “I get a lot of emails” - she knew exactly which emails - I reminded her of them, then said she didn’t know that I wanted to start a dialogue about it (!?) - then we hashed it all out again, she won’t have sex unless I use a condom and since I stand firm on that, she will stand firm too - I said that I am willing to do anything as long as it doesn’t involve sin, and using a condom would be a sin for me - I was not asking her to sin, only to learn more about NFP and give it a chance - she said that she doesn’t trust it and will not use it, she doesn’t want to risk getting pregnant - she doesn’t see the point in charting and taking temps if she isn’t going to have sex anyway.

I told her I did not want to go to Hell for sinning using a condom, and she said that she didn’t want to have anymore children “which would be same as going to Hell for me”, (her words) - I told I didn’t know she felt that way.

We were sitting outside, and could see our kids playing in the house. It was getting late, so I told her the kids needed to go to bed - I gave her a kiss and told her I loved her, and I wouldn’t bring it up again, but that she had wanted me to talk and share what was on my mind. She sat there as I walked inside and put the children to bed.

It was a strange feeling, like she had severed a cord between us - I feel a bit more free, I don’t feel compelled to please her as much anymore, good or bad as that may be - if I want to sit down and read a book when I get home from work, I will - if I want to play my guitar loud, I will (which I did as the kids got dressed for bed) to let off steam, if I want to stop somewhere on the way home from work and be a little late, I will - I am my own person, and without the huge motivator of keeping her a happy wife and in the mood for intimacy, I feel more free - I will certainly do what I feel I need to do around the house (which is quite a lot) as a husband and father, provider and protector, but I feel even less now like bending over backwards to please her and keep her happy, which is usually an unsuccessful venture anyway - - - I can’t burn myself out and ruin my own mental health, I need to take care of myself and my children.
 
Read through some of the posts and thought that along with the many good suggestions, would try mentioning a few others - apologies if already discussed .

Read that your wife is a convert - wondered if she resents The Church for its teaching of NFP , not having recognised the reasons for same and if that anger is adding to the other syptoms of passive aggressive styles , depression etc : along with the idolatry of selfishness , with not much place for God !

Th long lasting effects of going against The Church in this area may be vastly underecognised , with its effects , even for this life and she might be willing to look into some of them to see the need to respect Church teachings .

Her present syptoms in themselves might be a result of such idolatrous deception , to bring both of you ,along with the children , into enemy tyranny and her wasting away her precious time on the Fcaebook may be already a sign of that !

Thus , exorcim prayers as well as confession would be good and here is a good site for same , from a Rome trained priest - Fr.Machado : -

youtube.com/watch?v=FAg0yj3LdCc , may be worth playing 2-3 times a day in the house , along with other good prayer C.D.s such as Gregorian chants , from holy monks .

Fr.Machado, in his book Holy Hands , mention how fasting is a good preparation for confession, which , in itself is a powerful means of exorcism .

Bl.Mother , in her Kibeho apparition also recommends the Rosary of Seven Sorrows , as a means for dealing with personality disorders ; it meditates on the sorrows of The Bl.Mother , as a means of bringing compassion and healing , from any areas of unforeseen , deep resentments .

Having read of widespread immoral sexual practices in supposedly Catholic places like Brazil , have wondered as to how much , such choices lead to also the widespread poverty and such ills !

Since The Word advices men to use the cleansing Words to heal the woman , may be reading esp. the Song of Songs,together, studying the bible together ( the Ignatius Study bible is a good one , for self or home study ) and thus dealing with deeper issues might bring the healing - till then offering up the struggles , in union with that of The Lord 's agony in The Garden, for Church unity , could also bring forth fruit that would last , including . blessings for the children !

God Bless !
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=698825 - here is a thread on devotion to St.Joseph , along with two good homilies on St.Jospeh .

In one sense your situation is not unlike that of Joseph of Old Testament and the wife of Pothiphar trying to force Joseph into illicit sex .

Listening to the good homilies on St.Jospeh above , may be visting the shrine etc might open her heart more to the riches of Catholic beliefs …

In one sense, God hopefully is already using your situation, to possiblyhelp other couples also struggling in this area !

Pretty soon , The Church would be celebrating the Feast of Assumption …reminding us all of what awaits us , in His grace …

Many persons prepare for same, through a period of fasting too , almost like before Easter …anticipating , in joy, what The Father reveals to us ,
through this glorious truth of her Assumption , what can await us too - our own bodies , that are to be also kept sacred …

Such devotions can help to take one’s mind and heart away from execssive cares of this world ( not implying the situation is trivial - but can be an occasion to practice hope )
and focus on what is eternal …thus even making up for the deficiencies of many , in this area , offering up , for conversion of sinners …thus , a vast array of friends for the next …even here , in a spiritual sense …

moynihanreport.itvworking.com/from-the-desk-of/2012-letter-20-pray-with-the-holy-father - here is an article , on joining the Holy Father , who too has been embatteld by much , from his own , and bringing the help of heaven , as he recites the rosary everyday ,
at 6.45.p.m , Vatican time …many others joining him now, which , in turn brings that sense of spiritual communion too …

God Bless !
 
Thanks Josephene, for the astute suggestions - I need to use everything I can
Groo said:
You/re a good man, John! 👍

A far better man than I. God bless.
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what can I say to that, thanks for the encouraging word - it has helped at least to vent all this to others, even if only in this forum -

I bugged her again about the aforementioned books, and she consented to me checking them out - so “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” by Dr. Laura is sitting on her nightstand - she happens to be out of town for a night with some of her old college friends (a reunion of sorts) and honestly, around the house here, it has been a taste of Paradise without her here - such an awful thing to say about one’s wife, but she does bring an oppressive air to the home, I feel quite calm and free when we are apart.

I actually went through and read a lot of the Dr. Laura book, and actually shed some honest-to-goodness tears over all this, I haven’t really done that, been too cold and numb - but Dr. Laura hits the nail on the head, at least in my case: give your hubby some respect in his home, fix him good hot dinners, and give him some “good lovin’” now and then, and he (and the wife as well) will be much happier. Currently, I am daily disrespected in so many ways by her; if there is a hot meal for myself and the kids, I am usually the one who cooks it; and of course it is clear that I get zero “good lovin’” and haven’t really for going on 5 years.

How long can a moral, faithful and godly husband remain moral, faithful and godly in this situation? This is not a good way to enter mid-life, not good at all.

—john
 
johndelacruz said:
guess where she is? facebook-land…

…How long can a moral, faithful and godly husband remain moral, faithful and godly in this situation? This is not a good way to enter mid-life, not good at all.
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Don’t break my man, we know you didn’t sign up for this; don’t falter under the weight of this tedious evil; sometimes it seems the odds are stacked against us when we choose to do what is right, and the fact that you’ve made it this far is a testament to your spirit. This is undoubtedly a heavy cross to endure. I will say a rosary for you John…

Stay strong, and mabye cut that internet cable

peace and God bless
 
Greg_N said:
Stay strong, and mabye cut that internet cable
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I second this…it’s clearly a source of severe stress in your relationship.

Yes, it’s drastic…but it makes a statement.

I’d even go after it with a pair of pliers and cut it literally.

Or in my case…an “Office Space” reinactment on the wireless router with a sledgehammer. 👍
 
Kelfa28 said:
I second this…it’s clearly a source of severe stress in your relationship.

Yes, it’s drastic…but it makes a statement.

I’d even go after it with a pair of pliers and cut it literally.

Or in my case…an “Office Space” reinactment on the wireless router with a sledgehammer. 👍
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sounds tempting, and I’ve considered sabotage - but she would go inot a meltdown over it - whenever our internet goes down, she fiends after it like a drug, and we are all more miserable - she’d find a way to get it, and would cost us more money and trouble
 
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