Celibate & Married (NFP)

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Beth_Cecilia said:
I understood that. But he goes on to ask how he is supposed to live. His desires are intense, and unsatisfied. It is a perfectly fair question, but not one for his wife, at least not without understanding the root issues.

The blame that she puts on him could be simple- she wants sex in a selfish not a giving way. Or they could be complicated- the distrust of NFP is a diversion. We cannot know, from what he has given. But from some of the other things he has said, I suspect the latter. In any event, without learning how to communicate with her on the subject, things will not improve even if he can convince her to use NFP.
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I think that this whole struggle over sex is another way of her trying to be controlling over me - it is a power and control thing, and she does this in so many other ways too - she is indeed very selfish, and I say that after really stepping back and looking at it objectively - her own mother tells me the same, quite without prompting - and her mother doesn’t know about the sex thing at all - her mother said that she doesn’t know how I live with her - the hatefulness, the shrieking (in front of the kids), the demands and never being pleased no matter how hard I have worked to please her, the yelling and cussing when I try to talk with her calmly and reasonably etc etc.

She’s depressed and miserable, no doubt - and she’s the kind of person who when miserable makes everyone miserable around her too.

A few of you have encouraged me to take the strong arm approach, to lay down the law regarding facebook, household chores etc - but the only catch with that is that our young children 6 & 3 are always around and she has no qualms about setting off a nuclear war on my head, and her finger is always on the button.

At this point, I go and have a lot of fun with my children in the playroom while she is in the other room on facebook - when I have put the kids to bath and bed, I come down and read a book or something in the same room and glance over at her looking at facebook or watching TV - sometimes I just sit there and do nothing, waiting on her to look up from the laptop and interact with me.

She will then a little while later get up and head upstairs and go to bed and watch TV - I go in there and lay beside her, there is general silence, she is really into her programs - then the lights go out, and she turns her cold back to me - I’ll put my hand on her shoulder and say “good night, I Iove you” and she will say “I love you” - a few minutes later, she is asleep - sometimes I stare at her back wondering how long this can go on? she’s miserable, I’m miserable…

I’ve determined that I cannot change her though, so I have backed off from that approach - I can only manage myself and my reactions, make sure I don’t fall into the sexual temptation trap, and be the best father I can be to my children - I treat her with respect and love the best I can, with God’s grace

Just the other day, she said “at what point is it over?” I reminded her that she is the only one who ever brings up moving out, separating, ending it etc., that I have never broached that topic, it is off the table as far as I’m concerned - I affirmed that I love her, and I am commited to her - I asked her if she is commited to me, and she said that she is - I then asked her well, then stop bringing up this about moving out and it being over and such.

Reading this as someone looking in, I might be tempted to think that she simply doesn’t love me anymore, and maybe has some other relationship cooking on facebook - she may not love or like me anymore, but I honestly don’t think she is having an affair.

But I do agree, if she really wanted to be intimate with me, she would find a way, at least give NFP a try again.
 
Firstly, wow, if this is all true 100000000000 cuddos to you. You work, clean, cook, take care of your children and have managed abstinence for this long?!

I find it hard to believe but I will force myself to do so because it will help in redeeming my image of men.

It is just as hard to believe that your wife is so far removed from you that she would put you through all this. To me, this is such an exceptional situation that I am certain only something exceptional, such as a miracle, can change it. Keep praying and doing what you do for nothing goes unnoticed with God.

I would love to hear her side of the story though. I just can’t imagine that FB or fear of children can keep a woman from her husband for so long!

God bless you and give you strength!
 
Clearly she is being abusive towards you. Her actions sound a lot like somebody that suffered some sort of sexual trauma before your marriage. You seem like a nice safe guy, everything is great, you have a couple of kids and she realizes that the hurt is not repaired. Instead of dealing with the issues, she redirects everything as your fault. Very difficult situation. You try to bring it up and there will be tears or an attack. My suggestion would be to not pursue sexual relations with her until she agrees to get help with this. I would tell her this in some compassionate and firm way (sorry I don’t have the words for you).

All along continue to love her, you are loving her by insisting that you guys get help.
 
First off, God bless you! My prayers are definitely with you. A lot of people have commented on what an amazing husband you sound like… and no doubt, you definitely do. However, I am surprised that for a man who appears to be living his faith so strongly in regards to the refusing to use birth control issue, that you seem to have missed the boat entirely on other issues.

It is your catholic duty to be the man of your household. Your wife’s soul and the souls of your children may very well depend on it. As wonderful as it is that you cook and clean and see that the children are in bathed and in bed each night, I think they are being exposed to extreme dysfunction. I feel for you immensely, but I don’t necessarily see you as a hero in this situation. Saintly maybe, but not a hero.

The most charibtable thing you can do at this point is to upset the apple cart. Let her push the nuclear button. It will make your household hellish but someone has to step up and that someone must be you. Not only because she WONT, but because it is your duty as a catholic husband. Someday you will have to answer for your actions and right now, it doesn’t sound like that is going to go very well.

Im in no way suggesting that you have control over her having sex or not having sex, but you definitely have control over other issues that are going on. And I also know that what I suggest is a WHOLE LOT EASIER SAID THAN DONE. You are so deep in this that there is no quick fix. But some changes have to happen. You deserve that and so do your children.

I am praying for you!!!
 
Little_Mary said:
Your wife is not holding up her end of the bargain as far as being your wife. If you both entered into this marriage on the same page, and you are both Catholic of your own free well, and you are doing everything right that you know to do, then she is the problem. IMO you have grounds for divorce and annulment. Mind you, that is just my humble opinion. However, if I were in your shoes, I would definitly look into both of those things and then place the facts before her in black and white (documented).

Maybe those actions will be enough to wake her up. If not, I would pursue divorce and annulment.
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Marriage is not a bargain. Its a covenant of two people who give themselves fully.
Cant you see that there are children involved here??? 😦
And can’t you see that this wife is not just suffering from a bit of selfish holding back sexual activity, but that she is depressed and even admits it.
This is not a time to leave the ship, and I think its embarrassing to see such encouragements on CAF from fellow Catholics.
 
This is a tough one, but I will vote for option #1,because I love sex, but hate divorce.
  1. find someone else to have sex with on the side: SIN
  2. indulge in internet porn: SIN
  3. masturbate: SIN
  4. divorce her and find someone new: SIN
  5. offer up this suffering and live as a celibate, while Iiving and sharing a bed with my wife:
 
Magickman said:
This is a tough one, but I will vote for option #1,because I love sex, but hate divorce.
  1. find someone else to have sex with on the side: SIN
  2. indulge in internet porn: SIN
  3. masturbate: SIN
  4. divorce her and find someone new: SIN
  5. offer up this suffering and live as a celibate, while Iiving and sharing a bed with my wife:
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You didn’t just write that
 
"You didn’t just write that "

What didn’t I just not write?
 
Barbkw said:
Are you morally retarded?
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It would seem that he is.

As a wise man once said: You can’t fight the devil with the devil.
So one person is cruel, and so the other one responds by more cruelty (and in this case this would also be a horrible role model for the children… a father who betrays their mother… )
The reasoning of the world is like that, but it shouldnt be seen in a Catholic forum.
 
johndelacruz said:
I think that this whole struggle over sex is another way of her trying to be controlling over me - it is a power and control thing, and she does this in so many other ways too - she is indeed very selfish, and I say that after really stepping back and looking at it objectively - her own mother tells me the same, quite without prompting - and her mother doesn’t know about the sex thing at all - her mother said that she doesn’t know how I live with her - the hatefulness, the shrieking (in front of the kids), the demands and never being pleased no matter how hard I have worked to please her, the yelling and cussing when I try to talk with her calmly and reasonably etc etc.

She’s depressed and miserable, no doubt - and she’s the kind of person who when miserable makes everyone miserable around her too.

A few of you have encouraged me to take the strong arm approach, to lay down the law regarding facebook, household chores etc - but the only catch with that is that our young children 6 & 3 are always around and she has no qualms about setting off a nuclear war on my head, and her finger is always on the button.

At this point, I go and have a lot of fun with my children in the playroom while she is in the other room on facebook - when I have put the kids to bath and bed, I come down and read a book or something in the same room and glance over at her looking at facebook or watching TV - sometimes I just sit there and do nothing, waiting on her to look up from the laptop and interact with me.

She will then a little while later get up and head upstairs and go to bed and watch TV - I go in there and lay beside her, there is general silence, she is really into her programs - then the lights go out, and she turns her cold back to me - I’ll put my hand on her shoulder and say “good night, I Iove you” and she will say “I love you” - a few minutes later, she is asleep - sometimes I stare at her back wondering how long this can go on? she’s miserable, I’m miserable…

I’ve determined that I cannot change her though, so I have backed off from that approach - I can only manage myself and my reactions, make sure I don’t fall into the sexual temptation trap, and be the best father I can be to my children - I treat her with respect and love the best I can, with God’s grace

Just the other day, she said “at what point is it over?” I reminded her that she is the only one who ever brings up moving out, separating, ending it etc., that I have never broached that topic, it is off the table as far as I’m concerned - I affirmed that I love her, and I am commited to her - I asked her if she is commited to me, and she said that she is - I then asked her well, then stop bringing up this about moving out and it being over and such.

Reading this as someone looking in, I might be tempted to think that she simply doesn’t love me anymore, and maybe has some other relationship cooking on facebook - she may not love or like me anymore, but I honestly don’t think she is having an affair.

But I do agree, if she really wanted to be intimate with me, she would find a way, at least give NFP a try again.
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I am crying for you. This just breaks my heart to read. Please go to a good (Catholic if you can) therapist yourself. Learn how to deal with this. Your children have to be a priority, and they are learning from her behavior. She obviously needs help, and possibly medication. There is a stigma attached to the need for medication, but there should not be. (You’d take medicine for cancer, wouldn’t you?) You are likely to get good advice about how to get her to come to therapy. You are certain to get advice about how to take care of her.

Just a thought, not to scare you, but it is possible that the behavior is learned from her mother. Mothers do not generally tell their sons-in-law that their daughters are selfish- especially unprompted. They do not generally wonder how they live with them. That is kind of a red flag, IMO- but I am not a professional. You say yourself that everyone thinks you have a great marriage. That is to say, you may not be aware of issues your mother-in-law has. Even if I am wrong, you need to be thinking about your children. (I know you are!) Please talk to a therapist. How can you help your wife? How can you protect your children? These are questions for a professional.
 
whm said:
Clearly she is being abusive towards you. Her actions sound a lot like somebody that suffered some sort of sexual trauma before your marriage. You seem like a nice safe guy, everything is great, you have a couple of kids and she realizes that the hurt is not repaired. Instead of dealing with the issues, she redirects everything as your fault. Very difficult situation. You try to bring it up and there will be tears or an attack. My suggestion would be to not pursue sexual relations with her until she agrees to get help with this. I would tell her this in some compassionate and firm way (sorry I don’t have the words for you).

All along continue to love her, you are loving her by insisting that you guys get help.
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Great advice! That is exactly what my husband did to help be get through postpartum depression. He did not pull away, he loved me more. But he did not let me get away with false worries or accusations either. He kept me focused on reality. Still, I strongly suggest that he go to a therapist for advice about how to address this devastation. Especially if there is a suspicion that she survived a sexual trauma. Obviously she needs help, but he does too in learning how to care for her. I would want professional advice about how to approach her and how to approach the subject of her needing help.
 
If your wife wishes to remain home with the children, it’s her responsibilty to cook and clean and care. Not that you shouldn’t help, but it shouldn’t be your responsibility upon coming home from your 8 hours at work to do work that is hers to perform.

A woman working outside of the home (with a husband at home caring for the children full time) would BLOW the top of her head off if she came home and was “expected” to then cook and clean.

I suspect that it might be best that your wife work part time and possibly full time.

She seems unwilling (or no longer capable) to properly manage her time and has fallen back into slouth. Determine why and what you are doing in codependent support of her inactivity.

If you are the sole breadwinner of the family, it isn’t necessary that your paycheck goes toward the support of her habitual use of the internet.
 
I COMPLETELY understand not wanting to become pregnant. After my last pregnancy, which was basically 9 months of misery, pain and terror, I swore that I’d rather burn in hell than become pregnant again. To some extent, I still feel that way. I totally sympathize with, for one reason or another, not wanting to endure pregnancy again. Having said that, cutting off sex with your spouse is unacceptable and cruel. It is demeaning and selfish.

It seems like if your wife were interested in having sex with you, but didn’t trust NFP, she’d find a way to use contraception that did not involve your participation. The pill is only one of many contraceptive options available for women to use. She could go get her tubes tied or get an IUD behind your back and continue having sex with you if she really wanted to continue that part of your marriage without becoming pregnant. What is sounds like is that she knows you will not use condoms, so it’s a convenient excuse for “getting out of” having to have sex with you. I bet that if you did give in and use condoms, she would still refuse you. This goes much deeper than her desire to avoid pregnancy.

I’m sorry - but this situation sounds downright ridiculous. You haven’t had sex in two years? That would be absolute torture for most men. I hate to be so abrupt, but you guys need to find an EXCELLENT marriage therapist and GO. Like, yesterday. Your wife is abusing you, abusing her power and setting a heinous example for your children.

I will pray for you and I am so sorry you are experiencing this.
 
Barbkw said:
Before marriage, had your wife expressed any reservations about being a mother or about staying home with your children?
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She wasn’t very eager to have children at first, I was ready right away, but waited for her to come around - 5 years after we were married

She can be a devoted mother, sometimes

She is more into picking out clothes for them, and taking pictures (for facebook and to share) than the mundane stuff like changing diapers, baths, picking up after them, making school lunches or cooking dinner - those things fall to me, and I do them for the children - but I think I make it too easy for her to slack off - but then if I don’t do them, or leave something undone (like cleaning out the dishwasher and putting in the dirty dishes), then I am accused of not being supportive of her
 
DrPiano said:
I’m so sorry to hear everything you’re going through. I just wanted to post with another few resources for you. I’m not sure if you’ve ever heard of Dr Greg and Lisa Popcak, but they’re really good at giving advice on this. They have a radio program (carried on EWTN radio at 12pm EST, but you can also download podcasts and listen later) and a telephone counseling program, which is the bit I really recommend. They’ve talked a lot about doing one-person marriage therapy, something that they’re good at, and I think this might be helpful for you. And since it’s on the telephone, their hours are much more flexible than conventional counseling services.

Their website is here: exceptionalmarriages.com/

I’m curious - has your wife said why she doesn’t trust NFP? Also, what training did you guys receive when you started using it?

You’ll be in my husband’s and my prayers. I’m so sorry for everything you’re going through.
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thanks for the resource - I have heard of them

she doesn’t understand NFP as much as me, and hasn’t taken the effort to learn the details of it - we have two books on it, and we took the classes together - it is really up to her - I have done what I can in that regard - she doesn’t trust it because the rationale behind it is hazy to her, but if she would only exert herself (she is quite smart) she could understand it - I don’t she wants to

as folks have said, she is depressed, and her desire for sex is low - it is one of the symptoms
 
johndelacruz said:
as folks have said, she is depressed, and her desire for sex is low - it is one of the symptoms
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I do understand that a bit. My own depression came close to destroying both my life and my marriage. Please do anything you possibly can to get her real help for it. It was my husband basically insisting that I get help (along with seeing my life begin to crumble) that finally forced my hand.

Now, after counseling (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is SUPER effective) and medication, and a lot of communication, my mental health is where it should be, my life is back on track, and my marriage is much stronger.
 
1inICXC said:
Firstly, wow, if this is all true 100000000000 cuddos to you. You work, clean, cook, take care of your children and have managed abstinence for this long?!

I find it hard to believe but I will force myself to do so because it will help in redeeming my image of men.

It is just as hard to believe that your wife is so far removed from you that she would put you through all this. To me, this is such an exceptional situation that I am certain only something exceptional, such as a miracle, can change it. Keep praying and doing what you do for nothing goes unnoticed with God.

I would love to hear her side of the story though. I just can’t imagine that FB or fear of children can keep a woman from her husband for so long!

God bless you and give you strength!
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I assure you it is true - I know I may be painting myself as the innocent victim, and the hardworking and faithful husband, but I truly am just stating the facts - I have my flaws to be sure, but God is certainly burning them away in this purgatory

As far as her side, that is complicated, as I have counted four different sides/moods/personalities in her, so it would depend on which mood you ask, as to which side of her story is given - not that I mean that she has schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder, but just four different modes of interacting with me and the children at home (outside the home, she appears great and happy, which grates on me to see sometimes, to be honest)

Here are her modes:
  1. Sweet, happy, kind: This is the girl I fell in love with - I don’t see her much anymore, but when I do, she says that I am a wonderful husband and father - she is in Moms group at church and comes home after comparing notes with other wives about their husbands, she says that all that I do for her and the children, and how I am home with them and not out with the guys at night, or golfing on weekends, of vegging out in front of ESPN - she says that the other women are jealous when she tells them what I do (I’m just staing facts her, I guess she brags on me there)
  2. On the edge: This is where she spends most of the time now - simmering, bitter, nitpicking, critical, demanding, put-out with me and the kids, lacking affection, argumentative - I feel generally despised here - any little thing will set her off and move her into (3).
  3. Raging, hysterical, shrieking, cursing, physical (pinches my arm or leg digging her fingernails into me) - there is no talking or reasoning at this point - when she is at this point, she threatens to leave - she truly appears and acts in every extreme way imaginable like she truly Hates me - it is the most awful face she wears at these times - unfortunately, even when she is in 1) mode, and smiling and seemingly happy, I still see the hateful shrieking face - and honestly hesitate in drawing near - my guard is up, because from experience I know that she could flip to 2 or 3 without warning. I avoid her at these times best I can, and it has gotten to where I feel myself avoiding her at other times too - avoiding her as anyone would avoid something that causes them pain.
  4. Weepy, depressed, moping, very quiet, very withdrawn, but still with a keen anger just under the surface - she spends a lot of time here too - there is no bringing her out of it - I come home with my best good mood face on, smiling - I get halfhearted a smile from her at best - I try to be upbeat, but not obnoxious - the kids and I have a great time - she uses that time to take a “break”, on the computer, or watching TV, or just escaping upstairs
I find that I am a different person when she is not around, happier, more playful with the children - I feel freer, not having her critical eye glaring at me from around her laptop

Generally she would describe her problem as being very depressed and anxious, but not knowing why - she told me once that she knows that she should be happy, that she has a wonderful husband (her words) and two wonderful children, but she can’t enjoy them - she also calls herself “mentally ill”

She takes Xanax and Zoloft - recently her OBGyn has not refilled her Xanax because she isn’t attending therapy (she had a falling out with the therapist) - now, just today, she is working her way through a list of therapists, but that overwhelms her, she says - she wants me to call them all and find the best one and set up an appointment - I guess I will end up doing that, but I really feel like she should put forth that effort herself - I also offered to go with her, and even added that we could do couples therapy - she said “why?” - I said gently “why do you think?” ( This is a woman who just three days ago asked me “at what point is our marriage over?”) She got offended, and said that I was just making things worse.
 
GraceDK said:
This is not a time to leave the ship, and I think its embarrassing to see such encouragements on CAF from fellow Catholics.
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I agree - I knew I would have to weed through bad advice here, but I know where I stand
 
whm said:
Clearly she is being abusive towards you. Her actions sound a lot like somebody that suffered some sort of sexual trauma before your marriage. You seem like a nice safe guy, everything is great, you have a couple of kids and she realizes that the hurt is not repaired. Instead of dealing with the issues, she redirects everything as your fault. Very difficult situation. You try to bring it up and there will be tears or an attack. My suggestion would be to not pursue sexual relations with her until she agrees to get help with this. I would tell her this in some compassionate and firm way (sorry I don’t have the words for you).

All along continue to love her, you are loving her by insisting that you guys get help.
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She has not suffered any sexual trauma, not that I know of and I truly doubt it - our sex life when we first got married was fairly normal, but dropped off severely after she converted to Catholicism after 5 years of marriage and we started with the NFP -

before that, while she was Baptist, we did, sad to say, participate in contraception - she on the pill, and she usually also insisted a condom on me as well - I was less formed as a Catholic, actually less of a backbone frankly, I acquiesed about everything else, that was just one more thing -

after her conversion, which I prayed intensely for (that’s another painful story), I thought we were on the same page, she was learning, she wanted to be faithful to the Church, we started NFP - it was ok at first, though tentative, amounted to 1-2 times a month at most - some months, none - it wasn’t until we had our 2nd child, and she was through in her mind with having children, that the sex dried up completely
 
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