Celibate & Married (NFP)

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Sheesh, I was only trying to help.

Regarding your email to your wife, I think you can rest assured that she knows exactly how this all affects you. If you talk to her with the same condescending, holier-than-thou tone that you addressed me, then I am not surprised that you are making little progress with her.
Peace brother - you were advocating that I engage in a mortal sin, forgive my resistance and response. I’m already dealing with temptations internally to do this.

As far as my wife, we do not discuss it face to face much anymore. I have stood by Church teaching, giving in as much as I could. I didn’t call her a sinner, or say she was going to Hell, or even that she was tempting me to sin. I simply have told her that I cannot have relations using a condom as I believe strongly that it would be a sin, giving the best explanation I can regarding the Church’s teaching. She doesn’t respect my decision, and will not try NFP when I suggest it as an acceptable alternative.

If standing firm to Church teaching is acting holier-than-thou, then I guess you are right. I have heard the stats that 80% of American Catholics do not abide by the teaching of Humane Vitae. Even if I’m one of the few, I will still stand firm (by God’s grace). Let people call me holier-than-thou all they want : )

God bless -

—john
 
Peace brother - you were advocating that I engage in a mortal sin, forgive my resistance and response. I’m already dealing with temptations internally to do this.

As far as my wife, we do not discuss it face to face much anymore. I have stood by Church teaching, giving in as much as I could. I didn’t call her a sinner, or say she was going to Hell, or even that she was tempting me to sin. I simply have told her that I cannot have relations using a condom as I believe strongly that it would be a sin, giving the best explanation I can regarding the Church’s teaching. She doesn’t respect my decision, and will not try NFP when I suggest it as an acceptable alternative.

If standing firm to Church teaching is acting holier-than-thou, then I guess you are right. I have heard the stats that 80% of American Catholics do not abide by the teaching of Humane Vitae. Even if I’m one of the few, I will still stand firm (by God’s grace). Let people call me holier-than-thou all they want : )

God bless -

—john
First, I want to apologize for my holier-than-thou comment. That was out of line and I am sorry for that.

To be clear, I never advocated you committing sin. I only suggested getting counsel.

I do sympathize with your family situation. Our family has had many challenges of its own. And for the longest time I thought the problems were all my wife’s. At a low point in our lives, I took a hard look at myself and started working on changing me. By working on myself, many of our family problems improved or went away. And my relationship with my wife is better as well. Is it where I want it to be? No, but it is better.

When I read your posts I don’t see any indication of introspection as to your part of the marriage problems. It all seems to be her fault. Maybe that is true, but my experience has been that both spouses usually have their issues.

And while you do get counseling, I wonder if you do not just find people who will just agree and sympathize with you. You get counseling from priests. How about a licensed therapist? As of last year you were not in counseling yourself. How about working on yourself with a professional?

The lack of intimacy in your marriage has to create a toxic environment for your kids. It had been almost a year since your previous update and it seems little has changed. Isn’t it worth considering getting help from a different source? You are the man in the family. It is up to you to lead. Status quo does not seem to be working.
 
First, I want to apologize for my holier-than-thou comment. That was out of line and I am sorry for that.

To be clear, I never advocated you committing sin. I only suggested getting counsel.

I do sympathize with your family situation. Our family has had many challenges of its own. And for the longest time I thought the problems were all my wife’s. At a low point in our lives, I took a hard look at myself and started working on changing me. By working on myself, many of our family problems improved or went away. And my relationship with my wife is better as well. Is it where I want it to be? No, but it is better.

When I read your posts I don’t see any indication of introspection as to your part of the marriage problems. It all seems to be her fault. Maybe that is true, but my experience has been that both spouses usually have their issues.

And while you do get counseling, I wonder if you do not just find people who will just agree and sympathize with you. You get counseling from priests. How about a licensed therapist? As of last year you were not in counseling yourself. How about working on yourself with a professional?

The lack of intimacy in your marriage has to create a toxic environment for your kids. It had been almost a year since your previous update and it seems little has changed. Isn’t it worth considering getting help from a different source? You are the man in the family. It is up to you to lead. Status quo does not seem to be working.
thanks for the more productive follow-up : )

I haven’t pursued a licensed therapist, frankly because we don’t have money for that kind of thing, and secular therapists will likely be soft on the whole contraception issue, if not dismissive of the whole issue - I did talk with a counselor for Couple to Couple league, and he gave some very good advice just to look at things differently and to take care of myself, I can never really change her, or the situation. I have also set up to begin with a local Spiritual Director, something I’ve never done before, after the start of the new year. This is for spiritual growth in general, and not for the marital issues specifically although I’m sure it will come up. I also have the nearby Dominican friars as confessors and confidants.

I haven’t shared everything in this thread of course. And as for being introspective, I’m nothing if not that, overly so at times, analytical to a fault. I’ve analyzed this thing from all angles, with the help of church documents and teaching, and yes with bouncing ideas and thoughts off others who are more knowledgable than I (and also faithful to the Magisterium). I have concluded so far that I can only do my part to being faithful as a husband and Catholic, pray for her and our family, but never really expect that I will do or say something to her to change her mind or the situation.

I’ve tried to stick with “facts” in my disclosures in this thread, and tried not to “bash” my wife - my faults are evident throughout: allowing her to act like this, letting her slide on her duties as mother and wife, perhaps not being as kind as I should have been (but I will say I have never responded in like manner to her rages and outbursts). My best response is still being shaped, hence my reaching out in recent years to priests, confessors, counselors, and you good people here, after keeping it all to myself for so many years.
 
Thanks for the response. I don’t really have anything more to add, but I do wish you and your family well and hope things get better for you.
 
Thanks for the response. I don’t really have anything more to add, but I do wish you and your family well and hope things get better for you.
ok, thanks so much - God bless you!
—john
 
Hi John

Since we have a similar problem, I wanted to share with you this article which I read this morning and inspired me to be a living example to my wife of the love of Christ and a reflection of Mary as a living catechist.

therealpresence.org/archives/Marian_Catechist/Marian_Catechist_001.htm

Ze100
thanks, good spiritual reading does help - I’m currently reading through “Divine Intimacy”, started at the beginning of Advent, very very good - the readings lately are about love for others, stretching me a great deal

Yesterday, I became aware of myself: I was cooking grilled cheese for my kiddos - and then my wife, who was sitting in front of her laptop, asked me to cook one for her too - normally I just do that kind of thing automatically, but it made me think - I cook for her, clean up the messy kitchen and house, fix what needs to be fixed around the house, tend to the kids baths and bedtime, entertain them and keep them from annoying her etc etc - what does she offer me? She provides childcare and buys the children clothes, but I can’t think of anything she does for me as her husband - Not that I want equal for equal, I do stuff at home out of love, mainly for my kiddos - but I feel like my motivation for doing for my wife waning - I honestly think what keeps husbands motivated on one level is regular sexual initimacy, right or wrong, I believe that is the truth - when that is cut off, what binds me to her beyond what I would do for a roommate out of sheer kindness for another human being? Going without sex for years at a time is really suffocating our marriage and she doesn’t seem to care…then she wonders why I seem distant, or quiet, or not particularly romantic, not overly excited about meeting her for lunch etc…- it’s a great struggle to maintain romantic overtures toward someone who has made it clear that she will not have marital intimacy…this is awful
 
It saddens me to see the cross you have to bear.

I have had a 2 friends go through situations like yours, i.e. a mentally ill manipulative spouse. I have also lived through this as a child from such a marriage.

One of the most important things you can do at this point is protect your children. Whether you know it or not, they see much more than you realize and it pains them greatly. I am in my late 40’s and still carry the scars to date.

There may come a time when your wife decides that she has had enough and she will seek a divorce or just take off with the children. If this happens, she will throw everything including the kitchen sink at you as well as invent hideous allegations. You need to document her behavior now by keeping a journal and by also recording it if possible. Her behavior is unsuitable as a spouse, imagine if she had sole custody of your children.

You need to sit down with a family law attorney, indicate that you are not seeking a divorce, but want to be prepared if it occurs and get sound legal guidance. Mental illness or not, does not give license to be abusive to a spouse and bad behavior that is tolerated will continue unless she is called on it. I know you are trying to keep the marriage together, but prudence dictates that you must consider the welfare of your children in case she decides to file for divorce.

I had 2 friends I mentioned earlier, one did this and the marriage was saved, the other didn’t and it cost him $250K and 3 years of his life to clear his name of false allegations (she accused him of child molestation and bribed a social worker) and he ended up with sole custody of his daughter and she pays child support.

For all intents and purposes, at this point you are a single, albeit married, father caring for your children with a live in, part-time, abusive nanny. You have sacrificed a great deal to save you marriage, you should also protect yourself and children in case abuse becomes legal predation.
 
John,

In addition to what Father of 10 has proposed, since one of our primary roles as husbands is to lead our wives to an intimate relationship with Christ, and so to heaven, I would also recommend that you lead her to take the sacraments as often as possible. It is through the sacraments that God’s grace acts the most powerfully.

Invite your wife to daily mass. By hearing the daily readings, homily, and recieving holy communion she will be exposing herself to God’s grace. Go to monthly or bi-monthly confession with your eldest, and then invite your wife along. Try to make going to confession a family activity, and make sure that you all have the same confessor (even if he is not one you like). This will give the confessor a global view/unbiased view on the family situation. Educate your children in faith by reading the Bible, lives of the saints, King and the Golden City etc so that they can put pressure on your wife for her behaviour.

Yesterday morning at mass at the Convent of Saint Claire which I attend regularly, the prioress mentioned that a young husband who was an atheist and adverse to religion received his first communion. His wifes family is delighted with this change of heart. So miracles do exist…

Take care
ze100
 
Some very astute and prudent advice guys, thanks -

I actually in state social services/child protective services and so have seen my fair share of nasty custody battles and false allegations of everything under the sun - there is no worse hatred that that between former lovers - I want to avoid that at all costs, because I know the dire effects all that has on young kiddos

but the advice on preparing for all future outcomes is well taken…

The advice on frequent participation the sacraments is excellent, and I do try to get her to at least do the minimum on Sunday Mass, which itself is a struggle - she not unfrequently will not get up, and I end up going by myself, or with the two kids alone - especially now that my son has received First Communion I make sure he goes, unless sick - when my wife stays in bed, I don’t press the issue too much as she gets mad, and I chalk it up to it being excused due to “illness” on her part - I can only do so much to get her there. A mid-week Holy Day is also a struggle - I got her once to go to the Dominican parish for Confession with me years ago, and the priest was kinda gruff with her (according to her) and she hasn’t gone back. I don’t think she’s been to confession since now that I think about it, and that was probably 5-6 years ago…an invite is a good idea though…

—john
 
I think one of the things lacking in your marraige (and mine as well) is conjugal love. A good book to read is *Marriage: The Mystery of Faithful Love * by Dietrich Von Hildebrand. We have the marriage but we lack the connection of conjugal love where we can look our spouse in the eye and connect in a powerfull way as to be soul mates. It says in the book that there can be tough marriages where conjugal love is lacking and that we should still try to get back that conjugal love. Although I must admit it does take two and if one person is not willing, it makes it hard. One thing we still do have though is that ‘sacramental marriage.’ Our marriage is for Christ and in Christ and that cannot be separated by anything even though times right now are tough for you and I both. The sacraments together and as family is a great grace and help.
 
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