Celtic rite?

  • Thread starter Thread starter 4givemeasinner
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
4

4givemeasinner

Guest
The predominant form of celebration in the Catholic Church is the Latin/Western Rite, and their are certain eastern communities in communion with Rome, and they celebrate the sacred mysteries in their Eastern rites (Byzantine Rite, etc.).

Is there such thing as a Celtic Rite? I thought that I have heard brief mention of it. If yes, is it canonical and still practiced in communities in communion with the Holy See?

:highprayer:
 
From what I read, the term “Celtic rite” used to identify “various rites in use in Great Britain, Ireland, perhaps in Brittany, and sporadically in Northern Spain, and in the monasteries which resulted from the Irish missions of St. Columbanus in France, Germany, Switzerland, and Italy”, but is no longer present and active as a liturgical rite (see f.ex. a list here).

The predominant liturgy is the Roman rite of the Latin sui iuris church (which comes in two forms, Ordinary and Extraordinary aka usus antiquor), but the Latin church includes other liturgical rites.

There are 23 (though some sources say 22) other Rites (sui iuris churches) (which, along with the Latin church, constitute the Catholic Church).

On the other hand, from what I could find , there are 15 Latin rites and 9 Eastern rites.

Note that the lowercase rite refers to a particular form of liturgy, while the uppercase Rite is another way of defining a “sui iuris particular church”. To clarify what this means, consider that the Byzantine liturgical rite is used by 14 Eastern Rites (or sui iuris churches).

It’s a bit confusing :rolleyes:
 
To my knowledge, the Roman rite has been standard for the West since the Council of Trent; the few exceptions were in a diocese in Italy and a diocese in Spain.

However, the Roman rite includes a lot of features of Gallic (French Celtic) Catholicism, I’m given to understand
 
Not sure about a specific Celtic rite (though I suppose I really should, being Irish and all), but I have read that there were Celtic rites in use; I just haven’t found anything with an order of the Mass. There were a few different rites used in England before Trent, the most common being the Sarum rite (of Salisbury). It was a very elaborate and liturgical rite and very beautiful. Not Celtic, but near those areas.

I did read somewhere a while back that in Ireland and Scotland during the Middle Ages, bagpipes were sometimes used as accompaniment to chant in churches that had no organ.
 
From what I have studied so far, the Celtic Rite is now a defunct rite of the church. It had its own Missal (I actually translated it Latin/English from Latin with Gaelic rubrics) that may have dated back to St. Patrick, it’s own Breviary, Martyrology (Martyrology of Ogenius spelling???) and Liber Hymnus.

You can find fragments of it through out modern Catholic prayer books. For example, I saw a book with a prayer in it called “The prayer of St. Patrick’s breast plate”. They had their own rite of sacraments (which resembled Roman) and a way of Consecrating a church (resembled Roman I think).

I am trying to get this Rite translated and available at some point. I needed help with Latin so I am stuck at only have the Ordo translated. It is very beautiful and looks like a cross of Tridentine/Mozarabic and Byzantine.

At the Council of Trent, they allowed other Rites to exist that were older than 200 years old. Until Vatican II, most of them gave up their right to use it in exchange for the Novus Ordo i.e. the Carmelites. However, today you still have the Mozarabic Rite in Spain and the Ambrosian Rite in Northern Italy. However, the Use of York, Sarum Rite, Celtic Rite and the Use of Hereford are all but distant memories. Some priests in England though still say the Sarum Rite mass occasionally which is more ornate than the Tridentine.

With our Holy Father’s recent decrees on the old liturgies that were still around in 1962, you can use them now from what I understand also besides the old Roman Tridentine Mass. I know a priest that did the Traditional Ambrosian mass some times and a Carmelite Monk in Rochester said they are trying to learn the mass according to the Carmelite Rite.

If you are interested in looking at the Celtic Missal, let me know, I’ll post a link. The Confiteor is very beautiful, a plea to God for forgiveness followed by a litany of Saints.

The Kyrie in the Roman Rite is a shadow of that litany (some theorize), as in the Celtic Missal (here is a preview of the Mass of the Cathecumens)
Litany of saints, apostles and martyrs, virgins and the Confessions begins. O, God come to my.

And the rest.

O God, come to my assistance.
O Lord, make haste to help me.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost,
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

“Confiteor”

We have sinned, O Lord, we have sinned; forgive our sins and save us, like (how) thou guidest Noah above the waves, graciously hear us, and as you brought back Jonah from the abyss by thine word, liberate (deliver) us, who stretched out Thy hand as Peter was sinking, help us, O, Christ, son of God, thou hast did wonders with our fathers, O, Lord, and forgive our times, by Thy hand deliver us from on high.

Litany of the Saints

Christ, hear us
Christ, hear us
Christ, hear us
O Lord, have mercy

Saint Mary
Saint Peter
Saint Paul
Saint Andrew
Saint James
Saint Bartholomew
Saint Thomas
Saint Jacob
Saint Thaddeus
Saint Matthew
Saint Mark
Saint Luke

Let us pray.

All the saints pray for us,
Be merciful, spare us,
O Lord, be merciful,
O Lord, deliver us from all evil,
deliver us, O Lord
by your cross,
deliver us, O Lord

Some other resources is googling Henry Bradshaw society books for Celtic Rite, they are 1890’s books that have the ancient texts transcribed.

Hope this helps and sorry for spelling and grammar, been up for 14 hours.

Philip
 
There was aceltic rite, but it fell out of use during the middle ages. There are some people who are not in communion with the Catholic Church who are attempting a revival. However, I recommend staying away from those people.
 
pcampbell17 said:
I am trying to get this Rite translated and available at some point. I needed help with Latin so I am stuck at only have the Ordo translated. It is very beautiful and looks like a cross of Tridentine/Mozarabic and Byzantine.
Click to expand...
IIRC, there was also a good amount of Coptic (Alexandrene) influence.
pcampbell17 said:
At the Council of Trent, they allowed other Rites to exist that were older than 200 years old. Until Vatican II, most of them gave up their right to use it in exchange for the Novus Ordo i.e. the Carmelites. However, today you still have the Mozarabic Rite in Spain and the Ambrosian Rite in Northern Italy. However, the Use of York, Sarum Rite, Celtic Rite and the Use of Hereford are all but distant memories. Some priests in England though still say the Sarum Rite mass occasionally which is more ornate than the Tridentine.
Click to expand...
What happened in the wake of Trent was that those Western Rites which had been in continuous use for a minimum of 200 years were preserved. The Celtic had fallen into disuse well before that, so it was formally suppressed. So too the Gallican Rite. The Hereford Rite had fallen into disuse in favor of the Sarum Rite, so it, too, was suppressed.

The story of the Sarum Rite itself is a bit of an oddity. It had remained in at least limited use, but then came Henry VIII and the Protestants. Queen Mary (I think it was) tried to revive the Sarum Rite during the brief “Catholic Restoration” but ultimately her efforts amounted to nothing. By the time of Trent, it had fallen into disuse, and so it was also technically suppressed. Yes, it has been used since, but only by special indult.

The use of the Ambrosian, Bragan, Mozarabic, and Lyonais Rites was unbroken, and those were retained. The same is true of the Rites proper to the Dominicans, Carmelites, Carthusians, Cistercians, and Praemonstatentians. (That last was abandoned by act of the General Chapter shortly after Trent, although certain elements of it were retained – IIRC, mainly in the Office and in the chant.) In the wake of the Novus Ordo, the Orders were all allowed to retain their Rites. The Carthusians did so fully. The Cistercians based on the particular Abbey. The Dominicans have a rescript wherein the Provincial has the authority to allow it. The Carmelites unfortunately abandoned their Rite but it was never suppressed, and there seems to be some interest within the O.Carm to revive it, at least on a limited basis.
pcampbell17 said:
With our Holy Father’s recent decrees on the old liturgies that were still around in 1962, you can use them now from what I understand also besides the old Roman Tridentine Mass. I know a priest that did the Traditional Ambrosian mass some times and a Carmelite Monk in Rochester said they are trying to learn the mass according to the Carmelite Rite.
Click to expand...
I know there’s a Carmelite in Troy who is permitted to celebrate it. There are also the Wyoming Carmelites and a similar group in Brazil who use it. Those latter are not O.Carm but are of Diocesan Right and have permission to use the Rite.
 
Interesting indeed. What is interesting, the Canon in the Missal resembles the Tridentine Canon with very few minor changes. I have seen the evolution of this mass until about the 1100s when Romanesque parts were added. I forget the date of the last Celtic missal that was recorded. Like I said, look up the Henry Bradshaw Society books on it, real treat.

Like in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, where there are intersessions for various things, the Celtic Mass has this:
Let us pray:
For the inhabitants of this place and for him, the most affectionate manner, the Roman Emperor and to all the Roman army:

So, that might date it a tad bit! I thought that would be interesting to share.

I am working with a Priest to get it on line on a website that has various other rites available to view and compare. I can’t wait to see the fruits of the labour!

You are right though, there are various churches outside of the Catholic Church headed by His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI, that try to use this mass and parts of the rite as their own.

The Hereford rite is neat too, but that is for another topic!

Regards,
Philip
 
Let me get it suitable for viewing, the Latin and English aren’t lining up properly.
As far as canonical status, it is not. I doubt it will ever be.
 
The Celts were the indigenous peoples of the British Isles. They were christianised and they had their own liturgies and practices. As the British Isles were invaded by various peoples from mainland Europe the Celtic people were pushed in to certain areas of these islands. They were pushed in to Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Over time the Roman Rite began to dominate, first when St Augustine was sent and probably more so after the Norman Conquest.

A number of local rites developed, e.g. Bangor, Hereford, Sarum and York. Sarum was probably the most widely used local rite in England at least. When Henry VIII died the protestant nobles dominated his successor Edward VI and the liturgy was protestantised. When Edward VI died and his sister Mary I came to the throne she attempted to restore the Catholic Church in England and once again to submit to the authority of Rome. After Mary I came Elizabeth I. During Elizabeth’s reign there were brutal attempts to wipe out Catholicism in Britain.

The Sarum Rite was used relatively close to the time of the Council of Trent. I thought Trent banned all rites that had not been used for the last two hundred years. It seems surprising that this would include the Sarum Rite.

There has certainly been no major attempt to re-introduce the Sarum Rite, as far as I know. The Celtic liturgy had not been in use for hundreds of years at the time of Trent. It was different from the Roman Rite and would undoubtedly been suppressed.
 
4givemeasinner said:
The predominant form of celebration in the Catholic Church is the Latin/Western Rite, and their are certain eastern communities in communion with Rome, and they celebrate the sacred mysteries in their Eastern rites (Byzantine Rite, etc.).

Is there such thing as a Celtic Rite? I thought that I have heard brief mention of it. If yes, is it canonical and still practiced in communities in communion with the Holy See?

:highprayer:
Click to expand...
No. Somebody’s telling you stories.

There used to be an English rite long ago called the Sarum rite. It is now out of use, abrogated. It was in Latin and it is ancient. It was NOT celtic in any way, shape or form, but the product of the original evangelization of Britain by the Romans.
 
Could you clarify about someone telling stories? There are many books published about the church in Ireland by the Henry Bradshaw Society. I even have copies of their Martyrology and their Missal which I translated from Gaelic/Latin to English. There was more than just the Sarum Rite in the British Isles. Let’s not forget about the Use of York, Hereford Use,-Lincoln Use, Bangor Use, Aberdeen Use and others. Even the Use of York had their own Missal and Breviary.

The problem with the term “celtic rite” is that it is being abused by non Catholic churches, and the old missal is being miss translated and being used for non Catholic services.
 
Rand_Al_Thor said:
Do you know where the Assyrians fit in with that chart?
Click to expand...
That would be under East Syriac. 🙂

In case anyone is interested, it seems to me that the chart is a little off. There really should be a relationship shown between Edessa and Antioch, and another relationship between West Syriac and Maronite.
 
iloveangels said:
No. Somebody’s telling you stories.

There used to be an English rite long ago called the Sarum rite. It is now out of use, abrogated. It was in Latin and it is ancient. It was NOT celtic in any way, shape or form, but the product of the original evangelization of Britain by the Romans.
Click to expand...
Who do you think is telling stories?

You might not have heard of the Celts. This doesn’t mean they don’t exist. They had a Chrisitan church that was different in praxis from the Roman Rite. It was different from the Sarum Rite. The Sarum Rite was not a result of the evangelisation by the Romans. For most of the time the Romans were in Britain they were pagans. The Romans left Britain ca. AD 410. It was more than another hundred years before the Pope (Gregory the Great) sent St Augustine to “evangelise” Britain, which was already Christian: Celtic Christianity. The Sarum Rite was more than likely derived from the Roman Rite. The Sarum Rite developed under the Normans. Although the Sarum Rite is obsolete it was similar to the Carmelite and Dominican rites.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top