Centering Prayer is dangerous!

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Dear Mike,
mhansen":
There’s also confusion here that there is an “Avila style of Centering Prayer.” There is not, so we should probably nip that in the bud while we’re here
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That is pretty strong an assertion, Mike. It has been refreshing to find, at last, that this highly-explosive topic is generating a common ground of understanding through dialog and comparison. Isn’t that what we attempt in ecumenism? Finding the point of agreement and similarity, while not disowning our own truth?

You may need to back up your words and illustrate where the many contributors to the thread have been off-base. It is sad that all of this effort could be laid aside by a comment such as you have posted above. But, perhaps you also are not in sync with the terms used.

Let’s compare the points again. Keating’s works teach that a person should open himself to God’s presence and maintain at least a 20-minute period of discipline wherein all other thoughts, even holy ones pertaining to God or one’s salvation, are not admitted to the simple inward gaze upon God. To help the person stay “centered” on God, they may sometimes use a “sacred word” as their intent to be in His holy presence, but an image may equally be of help, and those who are able may need no word or image at all.

This method is called centering prayer. How does it differ from the writings of the saints who taught the concept, but called it by other names such as recollection, prayer of simple gaze or loving attention, acqired contemplation, etc. Is not the goal the same? To unite one’s mind and heart with God and be attentive to His holy presence within? The only difference I see, and disagree with, is expecting a person to maintain 20 minutes per session. For a person advanced in prayer, possibly a good thing, easily done and maintainable. But for others - :nope: . Remember, too, that Keating was one such “advanced” soul very given to prayer!

I don’t really care what name modern authors give this practice, providing they teach a sound doctrine suitable for the person who may be invited to practice it. As I mentioned previously, it is not for a beginner, nor for children, and I take issue with anyone indiscriminately disclosing this without regard for their audience.

Nor is any prayer mentioned above, a mindless emptying of one’s thoughts as promoted in Zen, and which has many dangers. The focus is God, not emptiness.

I hope you have followed along most of the thread, and you may agree with some of what we are trying to understand and achieve here.

🙂 Carole
 
Hello Golden Arrow,
Am I meant for Contemplation?

**A couple questions: **

I’ve seen Jesus’s face in the Eucharist on several occasions. I posted my experience under the miracle thread somewhere on this board. If one sees Jesus’s face in the Eucharist for 20 minutes straight on several occasions while in an Adoration Chapel what Mansion is that?

I’ve also had a couple Interior Locutions: a couple were admonishments, some were short words of encouragement, like one sentence. Has happened about 5 times since I was converted by Fatima. What mansion is this?

OR are these separate experiences and not considered mansions?
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St. Teresa’s book, Interior Castle, describes the progression in one’s prayer life as entry into a mansion. In each mansion, there are typical experiences the soul may possibly receive therein, but having one, or evem a few of those that are described in the later mansions, does not automatically follow that a person is at that stage of spiritual progression. One can regress to the lower rooms easily unless they remain faithful to God’s graces required for each stage of growth.

For instance, those who have been admitted, by His gift, to supernatural prayer, have a much deeper obligation to make strident efforts to avoid even so much as a venial sin and any occasion of falling into sin. Those in the lower mansions, just beginning their devotion to God, will not have the strength nor sufficient love yet for God to realize they must make solid efforts not to offend Him.

Primarily, I believe St. Teresa is teaching us how God inflows the soul as the person become gradually readied for deeper and more interior gifts of prayer. One in the thrid mansion may possibly receive a locution, and suspect that they might be, wrongly, in the sixth, just because she stated this is a grace many persons in the sixth mansion may typically receive.

If we study her actual prayer progression in each mansion, we see how God infuses Himself to a soul in ever-increasing degrees which she gave the name mansion. She described the effects of each prayer experience, which are the final test of authenticity. Basically, development in contemplative prayer is described by her terms: prayer of recollection (3rd); prayer of quiet (4th); prayer of union (5th); ecstacy leading to flight of the spirit or rapture (6th); and transforming union/spiritual marriage (7th).

Interestingly, the mystical phenomena are rarely, if ever, experienced in the 7th mansion, she writes… If someone believes that because they experience them, therefore, they have reached the pinnacle of holiness, you can bet they have a long way to go!
😃

Are you meant for contemplation? God alone is the one who bestows supernatural gifts of infused contemplation, but we are able to obtain “acquired” contemplation through efforts we have been discussing in this thread. Not only is it desirable to achieve the habit, but our saints taught others to strive to develop it, because there is so much blessing in the practice.

Remember the song? … And He walks with me, and He talks with me, and tells me that I am His own!! … Beautiful goal, wonderful holy habit! This will make all of us a saint, if we are attentive to God within us throughout our day, giving us constant companionship and inspiration. If God chooses to go beyond our simple efforts and grant infused prayer, well and good, but we must leave that to Him.

🙂 Carole
 
There are probably 2 forms of CP. I’m no expert, but in my opinion, one is truly good, and the other is dangerous:
  1. The dangerous form of CP is not really prayer at all. In simple terms, prayer is dialogue, with or without words, with God, the angels, or saints. Any form of CP that strives to empty the mind and heart of everything, including God, cannot build up our relationship with God. The dangerous part is that an empty mind and heart will become filled with something or someone, and it seems a great opportunity for “even worse” demons to enter into the “clean house”. Even waiting for God in an empty space seems a risk too great to take. Any so-called “prayer” without “the Other” is like looking in the mirror, seeing only oneself. Who wants to have a conversation with oneself?
  2. The good form of CP does seek God and conversation/union with Him. It is focused on replacing all the mind and heart’s distractions with something holy, such as a sacred word or image of Jesus. It is truly a dialogue and a sharing of thoughts with “the Other”, who is God. It does not seek to avoid images of God, but welcomes them as signs of His love and presence.
So, if we seek God’s face and desire to be with Him, then it is good CP. If we empty all space and reject the presence of God, then it is not good CP.
 
DBT said:
:confused: Guess I’m not following this.

I think what has been going on on this thread is exactly what you say . . . “mixing and matching of terminology” . . . hopefully to find some kind of common ground that rarely exists on CP threads.

Yet if we’re not to “explain and compare” the terms how is the “mixing and matching” to occur?

For my own part, if I’ve added to the confusion then I apologize to all. 🙂

Dave.
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I should have been more clear on this, but I was particularly referring to the Zen meditation book that GoldenArrow has that has created some kind of Zen-Centering Prayer hybrid. That’s the misunderstanding that started this whole thread. My apologies.

Mike
 
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Joysong:
Dear Mike,

That is pretty strong an assertion, Mike. It has been refreshing to find, at last, that this highly-explosive topic is generating a common ground of understanding through dialog and comparison. Isn’t that what we attempt in ecumenism? Finding the point of agreement and similarity, while not disowning our own truth?

You may need to back up your words and illustrate where the many contributors to the thread have been off-base. It is sad that all of this effort could be laid aside by a comment such as you have posted above. But, perhaps you also are not in sync with the terms used.

Let’s compare the points again. Keating’s works teach that a person should open himself to God’s presence and maintain at least a 20-minute period of discipline wherein all other thoughts, even holy ones pertaining to God or one’s salvation, are not admitted to the simple inward gaze upon God. To help the person stay “centered” on God, they may sometimes use a “sacred word” as their intent to be in His holy presence, but an image may equally be of help, and those who are able may need no word or image at all.

This method is called centering prayer. How does it differ from the writings of the saints who taught the concept, but called it by other names such as recollection, prayer of simple gaze or loving attention, acqired contemplation, etc. Is not the goal the same? To unite one’s mind and heart with God and be attentive to His holy presence within? The only difference I see, and disagree with, is expecting a person to maintain 20 minutes per session. For a person advanced in prayer, possibly a good thing, easily done and maintainable. But for others - :nope: . Remember, too, that Keating was one such “advanced” soul very given to prayer!

I don’t really care what name modern authors give this practice, providing they teach a sound doctrine suitable for the person who may be invited to practice it. As I mentioned previously, it is not for a beginner, nor for children, and I take issue with anyone indiscriminately disclosing this without regard for their audience.

Nor is any prayer mentioned above, a mindless emptying of one’s thoughts as promoted in Zen, and which has many dangers. The focus is God, not emptiness.

I hope you have followed along most of the thread, and you may agree with some of what we are trying to understand and achieve here.

🙂 Carole
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I do agree. What you’re doing here is fantastic. It was just a big misunderstanding…that’s all. I wasn’t as clear with my wording as I should have been. My apologies.

Mike
 
Dear Mike, 👋

Once again, the shades of gray in terminology have us scrambling to make things clear and restore our bonds of friendship. Any time we deal solely with the written word, there is potential for confusion. Thanks so much for your kind note explaining this.

:blessyou:

Carole
 
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mhansen:
I should have been more clear on this, but I was particularly referring to the Zen meditation book that GoldenArrow has that has created some kind of Zen-Centering Prayer hybrid. That’s the misunderstanding that started this whole thread. My apologies.

Mike
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Hi Mike -

No harm, no foul 🙂 Like you said, just a misunderstanding.

I look forward to your comments as we all try to find our way in this discussion . . .

Your friend,
Dave.
 
Wow.

A centering prayer thread actually turned friendly in the last few days.

Then again, I hadn’t checked this thread for a few days, so …

uhhh …

Never mind.
 
Joysong,

I don’t know if you’re doing any spiritual direction, but if you’re not you probably should be. Between your knowledge and your gentle and charitable presentation you seem ideally suited.

I have learned a lot here; enough to know I need to do a lot more study and spend a lot more time in prayer as I go forward with this.

Thanks to all of you. You are great examples of what I hoped to find when I came to this site.

Peace,
 
Well, bless your sweet heart, Ncjohn!

Although I live on a main street in my town, there is already a shingle hanging to advertise the business my daughter operates in the rear of the lot — no room for “Spiritual Director.” 😃

Maybe some day God will open this door, but for now, I just let Him take the reigns and lead where He wills. Occasionally He sends someone with questions, and it seems I have been helpful. I have enjoyed teaching CCD in the past to teens, but you know what? Sometimes it is more refreshing just to share on the Forum like we do now. I am able to learn many things from others, and we do develop bonds of spiritual friendship that are sure to last eternally.

You have a kindly spirit, John, and I can readily believe God is very much a Divine Guest within you!

🙂 Carole
 
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AlanFromWichita:
A centering prayer thread actually turned friendly
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Ah yes … there’s nothing quite like a discussion of contemplative prayer for provoking a punch-up! 😃
 
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buzzcut:
Ah yes … there’s nothing quite like a discussion of contemplative prayer for provoking a punch-up! 😃
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Hey twit! God was just talking to me and you interupted!!

😃
 
I just got a booklet from tan books called “Catechism of Mental Prayer.”

The booklet describes a form of prayer, called “The Interview with God.” This is new to me, or rather, doing it deliberately is new to me. I think I’ve been doing this for a LONG time without realizing it.

The book describes mental prayer and other forms. I have been doing a variant form called Mixed Mental Prayer, which is mental prayer that involves a third instrument in the dialog with God. My third instrument is my computer.

I like to go on a lot of messageboards and discuss spiritual topics, and that requires reading spiritual stuff, thinking on it, deriving meaning from it, and then interacting with others. I usually focus on varying topics. Depending on the depth of the topic, I might spend a week on one topic, like The Ascension, or I might only spend a day on it. Depends.

I suspect a lot of you also do this form of prayer a LOT!

I also keep a diary on my computer of my spiritual thoughts. The diary is very “off the cuff” and pretty much unedited. I have been picking a spiritual topic and talking about it with myself, or rather, to my diary. At least, up till now, that’s what I’ve been doing. I’ll involve the Holy Spirit from now on, though I suspect He’s been there all along.

I’m taking Hardon’s Advanced Catechist’s Course and I like to talk to my diary or to others about the topic I’m studying that week. (Not to get answers to the test questions! I do those solo). Befittingly, I discussed God’s Providence on a thread about the Hurricane, and this week’s study topic for me has been Christ the Judge of the Human Race, which talked about Death and Judgement and Christ the King.

Anyhow, my first deliberate “Mental Prayer” (sans the computer) was on Psalm 1. Meditated on it for about 20 minutes. Ready for more! It was pretty easy.

Thanks for all the information. I’ll have to read up on Avila, now.

ONE thing at a time though!

And I won’t totally FREAK OUT if I hear anyone say the word “Centering Prayer.” I’ll just ask them questions to figure out exactly what they mean. (Just with someone would come up with a different term).
Someone asked about the Zen book I used. I threw it away a long time ago. It was a paper back, about 1/4 of an inch thick and had a light yellow cover. Said something like “Zen Meditation.” I think the color of the text on the cover was dark red, if that helps.
 
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GoldenArrow:
I suspect a lot of you also do this form of prayer a LOT!
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Funny you should say it that way. For a poster with a less than 100 post count, I think you’ve sized up a good many of us pretty well. I actually consider this a form of prayer, although it is somewhat active in its nature I can still often find a reasonable amount of 'inner silence" while doing so. I think some would consider this an “active prayer” more than “contemplative prayer” but who cares as long as we’re doing it for God?
And I won’t totally FREAK OUT if I hear anyone say the word “Centering Prayer.” I’ll just ask them questions to figure out exactly what they mean. (Just with someone would come up with a different term).
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You mean freaking out isn’t mandatory? I thought the Rule Book said otherwise. 😛

Whoah! This could change a lot of things. I might want to try this once – this “not freaking out” thing! 👍

Alan
 
I don’t know if anyone noticed in the weekly forum email, but if I recall correctly, this thread ranked number one in the Spirituality forum!

Imagine that! A civil thread about a serious topic attracting that much attention!

Down pride, down!! 😃
 
Hi AlanFromWichita
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AlanFromWichita:
Yes, everything has risks. Life is a terminal illness with no known cure.
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Life is never terminal, but eternal… death is, and the cure is known : Jesus Christ 😉
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AlanFromWichita:
But to say this is the best way is to say that other devotions are inferior. For yourself, that is fine, but I am not comfortable with agreeing that any particular devotions or sets of devotions are the “best” way.
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I say that it is the best way because I don’t see any risks involves in singing/ listen to songs of praises to God in Jesus. It is different with other devotions. And God does not command CP as many times in the bible as to sing joyful songs for Him.

For a few years in charismatic renewal, I have come to understand why. The Holy Spirit sings God’s praises. When we sing/ listen to such songs, God testifies the truth to our spirit. She (the Holy Spirit) teaches the knowledge of God’s truth, free of errors. And how is it free of errors? It is free of errors because it gives praises to God who is worthy of all praises. It is free of errors because “it does not focus on ourselves” (who are full of errors), but only to God’s faithfulness and love and life. And all these things are freely given and none can claim these things out of merits, and therefore we sing prises for His unlimited Goodness. All kinds of spiritual gifts are also not of any merits from our part, so that we may not boasts.

And this is how David won his wars. And this is also how we are to win in our daily wars : to give praises to God and to “insists on joyfulness”.
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AlanFromWichita:
CP is neither a necessary condition for God to reveal Himself or a that we can “achieve” godliness.
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Still, it is a difficult road. And a difficult road is risky. In all points we are to “dicern” again. This road is not for everyone. I would still say-- especially in this internet media-- that singing/ listen to songs of praises is FAR better than CP.
I’m just some person out here with an opinion, albeit an opinion that I hold firmly.
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We have a lot in common here 🙂
[edit]I like your point about “prideful humility.” Have you read the part in Dark Night of the Soul about errors of certain beginners with respect to pride? It really helped me realize how tricky pride can be.
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I have read some of his poems (St. John of Cross) those he wrote in his “imprisonment”. And yes, the biography of how he tried to reform the contemplative lives of his time. So I have read Theresa of Avila’s book “inner castle”. Both are translations… they are not easy to understand, really. St. John’s poems some are very similar to the book of “Song of Songs”. Only then I understood (a bit) that this part of the bible implies contemplative life.

I do believe that whatever they did, they started from faith first (And yes, I also read that St. John of Cross is a bible reader and teacher too). Then whatever goodworks that might come later, those were given freely from God’s strength that comes out from their faith. Therefore St. Theresa & St. John were different than the other monks who insisted on “too strict discipline and become so unhealthy and ungodly” because these kind of errors comes out from “pure self effort” instead of “faith”.

God bless you Alan.
 
This website has a short concise definition of centering prayer.
The traditional term for centering prayer is contemplative prayer. Contemplative prayer is nothing new or peculiar or wrong so neither is centering prayer.
There must be mutltiple definitions to centering prayer and that is confusing.
 
contemplative said:
This website has a short concise definition of centering prayer.
The traditional term for centering prayer is contemplative prayer. Contemplative prayer is nothing new or peculiar or wrong so neither is centering prayer.
There must be mutltiple definitions to centering prayer and that is confusing.
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That is the type of CP I’m talking about. Yes, there seem to be several.

There is the actual one that is defined on the website you gave.

There are many definitions of CP based on false and even nefarious characatures of the one you defined.

There may be other methods that call themselves centering prayer that I don’t know about – some are incorrect emulations of the one you’ve defined.

Alan
 
I pray this thread does not become circular, but after reading Contemplative’s link above, it references the three promotors/authors of the title *CP. *That is where all the problems start :crying: .

There is no problem with the definition; there is merely a problem with the application by these three religious. One may take the essential truth of this ancient practice and mold it into new shoes that are designed for “everybody” to walk in, but “everybody” is just not readied by God to begin it.

We spoke in other threads how unlike the Cloud of Unknowing these authors’ writings are, simply because of readiness. It is almost as though a physician treats the same disease with a blanket medicine, regardless of whether or not the patient manifests the symptoms. Nothing wrong with the medicine, to be sure — just its misapplication.

🙂 Carole
 
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