Centering Prayer is dangerous!

[AlanFromWichita]

Didi:

Please keep reading the article; notice the author says advocates of centering prayer say… The article itself goes on to explain why this is a dangerous point of view.

Well, since you asked so nicely, I believe I am pleased to. If you don’t mind, I’ll document my comments along the way rather than reading the whole thing.

First, though, I want to call attention to the phrase “a quick wav of finding God.” This phrase indicates the most obvious problem centering prayer has.

I’ve heard this many times, but only from people who don’t know about CP. Nobody reputable believes this, but they don’t defend it because they are committed praying rather than talking about their prayer. They believe that if they just do that, the Holy Spirit will take care of anything else. At least that’s why I can’t get Dan (the CO rep, certified to teach Keating’s stuff) to be an apologetic for it.

Centering prayer, on the other hand, promises any Christian at any stage access to contemplative prayer. The impression its promoters give is that a person only has to read a brief description of the method, find a quiet room and, after a few minutes of “centering,” experience a deep, contemplative sense of God’s presence.

I don’t know where this comes from. I’ve written articles that Bishop Olmsted allowed to be published in his diocesan paper, I’ve listened to countless hours of Keating tapes and have near-daily email contact with the rep from his organization, and participated in weekly meetings and even occasionally ran them.

I honestly have never heard of this description of CP. In short, CP promises nothing at all in terms of results. It is only a method to try to shut up the noise in your head for a few minutes so you can rest. I’ve never heard of CP making such promises.

Now can miracles be worked through CP? I believe so. CP and Keatings teachings, under supervision by my spiritual director were more instrumental in healing my psychosis than any medication has. Is that a miracle? No. I was a gradual teaching process and learning process that took years, on top of the years I’d already tried to learn God by studying the Bible on my own with no direction. Is that a miracle? Who knows? The fact is some people do have problems, like the OP, especially when in the hands of unqualified people running and teaching CP. That’s why I quit telling people to use it, except under direction of an SD. For me it has given me new life, and has enabled me to face many tragedies I previously dreaded, and our family does nothing but feeds me the fruits of the Spirit every day. It has improved my faith in the Church.

Personally I think many can decide for themselves whether they want to “take the red pill or the blue pill” to use a Matrix movie metaphor. But I cover myself by saying “go ask your SD.” It’s like telling them to go start a new exercise regimen without checking with their physician first. Instead, I usually just compromise by suggesting Lectio Divina, which even the most staunch anti-CP people I’ve heard support. That’s more like saying “maybe you should take an aspirin” where you figure you don’t have to be a doctor to prescribe that.
(continued)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued)

The promise of quick results may help to explain the popularity of centering prayer, but it cannot be dismissed as a mere sales gimmick. It is a direct antidote to what its promoters regard as a problem afflicting modem Western culture. Says Abbot Keating, “To the objection that we might be introducing contemplative prayer (to people] too soon, my answer is that our contemporaries in the Western world have a special problem with discursive meditation because of the ingrained inclination to analyze things [which] has led to the repression of our intuitive faculties… This conceptual hang up … impedes the spontaneous movement from reflection … into contemplative prayer.” What’s needed, he suggests, is a method like centering prayer, a “means of exposing people to the actual experience … essential to get beyond the intellectual bias.”

What he’s talking about is removing barriers from spiritual formation. This is completely in line with what the CCC teaches about prayer. It’s about surrender to the Lord. You can talk about it all day.

Gosh I have to go for a while. Let me leave it there, God willing to come back to the rest if you still want to hear it. So far I haven’t found the part where the article has any good information, other than informing my how uninformed people are. I feel like I’m trying to defend the Catholic Church against charges made by Protestants who say that Catholics are cannibals becasue of their beliefs. It’s like, what CP meeting did these people go to?

Let me leave you with some CCC verses in the meanwhile. The ones quoted below on Contemplative prayer (of which Keating claims CP is a direct invitation to contemplation and some claim it is not). It’s worth reading the whole section on all three types of Christian prayer, which Lectio Divina covers entirely. That’s another reason I tell people to do Lectio. Then they don’t argue about CP, but it can still lead to contemplation!

Really I don’t care if people don’t do CP. That’s between them and God. What I care about is that they are made aware of contemplative prayer and that some teaching and method is offered to them. Even if not explictly, then contemplation can easily come from sitting quietly in front of the Eucharist in adoration, so I’m pretty open about the method so long as they’ve at least heard of silent prayer, and know that the CCC not only condones it, but says prayer “should” become unitive, and that contemplation is that unity. Other prayer forms are good, but they “should” lead to contemplation.

CCC:

2717 Contemplative prayer is silence, the "symbol of the world to come"12 or "silent love."13 Words in this kind of prayer are not speeches; they are like kindling that feeds the fire of love. In this silence, unbearable to the “outer” man, the Father speaks to us his incarnate Word, who suffered, died, and rose; in this silence the Spirit of adoption enables us to share in the prayer of Jesus.

2718 Contemplative prayer is a union with the prayer of Christ insofar as it makes us participate in his mystery. The mystery of Christ is celebrated by the Church in the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit makes it come alive in contemplative prayer so that our charity will manifest it in our acts.

2719 Contemplative prayer is a communion of love bearing Life for the multitude, to the extent that it consents to abide in the night of faith. The Paschal night of the Resurrection passes through the night of the agony and the tomb—the three intense moments of the Hour of Jesus which his Spirit (and not “the flesh [which] is weak”) brings to life in prayer. We must be willing to "keep watch with [him] one hour."14

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

It doesn’t get any better any time soon:

People looking for a quick way of finding God are likely to run into two temptations that have plagued Christians from the beginning: to take a negative view of the material world, and to think contemplation is something they can attain all by themselves.

First, let’s look at the proper way a Christian values the material world. God chose to come to us through the material world. He chose to reveal himself to us in the spoken words of the prophets, in his sovereign interventions in human history, and, above all, in Jesus, his eternally begotten Son, made man in time and space. He chose to redeem us through the physical death and resurrection of this man. He chose not to take us out of this world after we are united to him in baptism, but to leave us in the world. God even chose the physical sufferings we endure on this earth as a way we can draw closer to him, following in the footsteps of his Son.

It should not surprise us, then, that God wants the believer to approach him in and through the material world. “To grasp the depths of the divine,” says Cardinal Ratzinger, the Christian meditates on the earthly life of Jesus. God reveals these depths “through the human-earthly dimension.” When the Christian sees Jesus, he sees the Father (jn. 14:9); he grasps “the divine reality in the human figure of Jesus, his eternal divine dimension in its temporal form.”

What in the world? Is this saying the only way to approach Christ is through worldly means? If that’s the case then what is any kind of prayer for?

Meditate on the earthly life of Jesus. That’s fine, but that’s not CP. Because the Pope thinks one devotion is good we assume that a different devotion is bad? That’s not very compelling logic. :whacky: I’m beginning to suspect the author is either biased, or at the end we hear the punch line and find out I’ve just been set up for a joke.

However, this sort of “human-earthly” meditation is considered a hindrance in centering prayer. “in centering prayer we go beyond thought and image, beyond the senses and the rational mind, to that center of our being where God is working a wonderful work,” says Father Pennington “just sitting there, doing nothing. Not even thinking some worthwhile thoughts or making some good resolutions-just being.” Abbot Keating goes further, "if you are aware of no thoughts, you will aware of something and that is a thought. If at that point you can lose the awareness that you are aware of no thoughts, you will move into pure consciousness.

Exactly. It’s like being alone with someone you love, and you are beyond words. Each others’ presence is all you need. This is like a very mature marriage, where the couple are so united they can simply rest in each others’ presence and feel the glow without even looking up from their newspaper. Love is something poets try to describe, but really we all have our own ideas about it. It’s hard to describe something that our modern lexicon doesn’t well support, but compare what Keating has said compared with the CCC and let me know where the discrepancy is:

CCC:

2711 Entering into contemplative prayer is like entering into the Eucharistic liturgy: we “gather up” the heart, recollect our whole being under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, abide in the dwelling place of the Lord which we are, awaken our faith in order to enter into the presence of him who awaits us. We let our masks fall and turn our hearts back to the Lord who loves us, so as to hand ourselves over to him as an offering to be purified and transformed.

Notice we “let our masks fall.” That does not mean we don’t wear makeup to prayer meetings. It means we let go of our thoughts, our pretenses, everything. Also reference CCC sections I quoted above.

It can be very strange. Most people are not used to silence. Maybe it’s a bit like Adam felt when God first called and said, “where are you?” They have been taught since they are little that they should be “focused” on a “purpose” at any time. This is a denial of that false self which is basically original sin, fed and nurtured by a society hostile to the Good News. This prayer is not focused in that way. The only focus here is that you make time for God. Interior silence allows us to appear “naked” before God in a way, and so it can be very profound.

I’l getting long in the typing again. God willing, I’ll pick it back up.

Alan

 

[Vonier]

Just a suggestion, but maybe it would be more to the point to pick up a book or two by Thomas Keating and give them a look see before condemning. Read “Open Mind, Open Heart”, it’s only 132 pages long. Then decide what you think about centering prayer.

I want to thank you Alan for your cogent posts.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Besides the temptation to reject the material world in this approach there is another problem-indicated by Cardinal Ratzinger’s use of the word “oneself” in the last quote-the temptation to ascend to God by one’s own power or strength. In fact it is God’s choice, not ours, whether we enter the sphere of the divine. “God is free to ‘empty’ us of all that holds us back … to draw us completely into the Trinitarian life of his eternal love,” but this gift is granted “not through our own efforts.”

Of course this gift is not given through our own efforts, but our own efforts can impede God. We can choose to block Him or turn against Him. Those who are involved in contemplative prayer are simply saying “yes” to the Lord, consenting to self-denial, and thus attempting to remove roadblocks of the mind and heart that are impeding the actions of God in our lives.

Or do we believe that no matter how we carry on, that God can bless us the same? If that’s the case, no prayer at all is necessary. God can bless me if He chooses. Why bother going to Mass? Why say the Rosary? We cannot “buy” contemplation from God with our actions.

It isn’t about trying to control God, it’s about trying to deny ourselves to get our worldly minds out of the way between Him and our souls.

In the 16th century, Teresa of Avila noticed that as some Christians prayed they tried to stop thinking pre-mature, before God had given the grace of contemplation. In Interior Castle she said, “be careful not to check the movement of the mind … and to remain there like a dolt.” A century later, the church was confronted with a still more passive form of prayer in the teachings of Miguel de Molinos. It did not take long for “quietism” to be condemned.

Quietism? OMG, another “ism” invented. If “quietism” or silent prayer is a bad thing, then somebody needs to go rewrite the CCC, because it not only allows silent prayer, it actually states that prayer “ought” to move beyond vocal and strive for true union, which contemplative prayer achieves.

Centering prayer’s advocates occasionally remind their readers that contemplation is indeed a gift from God, but their clear and constant message is that God will give the gift. Every time. To everyone who uses the method. Their insistence that anyone can master the Centering-prayer technique and their virtual guarantee of success will lead many to a do-it- yourself approach to contemplative prayer. To be continued.

This is abject nonsense. I’ve never heard such a thing, even out of CP bashers. Apparently I don’t spend enough time hanging around relativistic, Church tradition-denying, misinformed anti-CP folks enough. If this is what passes as Truth these days, it’s no wonder how people can be so misinformed.

If journalists can write just anything about a man on earth and get it this wrong, and so many church leaders buy into it, then it kind of scares me how gullible they might be when it comes to teachings about things we cannot verify.

In a way, I’m glad I read the article. Now I see why people are so afraid of it. I also see why Dan the CO rep told me that our community is concerned more with doing the prayer than arguing about it, and he did not stop me from these apologetic efforts but would not participate in them himself. There are not enough hours in the day to counter all the misinformation that’s out there. I feel like I’m in the middle of a strongly anti-Catholic Protestant Church, with people who are scared to death of our “worship of Mary” or “cannibalism” or “following man rather than God” or whatever, or maybe I’m in a jungle thinking if I swat a few mosquitos I’m going to make a difference.

It’s amazing to me how divided the Church is internally; the apophatic tradition has been around forever, but since it isn’t main stream, and because it’s not about things easily argued, it gets pushed to the back burner. We know there are monks doing all sorts of holy stuff somewhere, but we have no idea what they’re doing, why, or how that helps the Church. How many Catholics know anything more about the “spiritual journey” than that they should follow the rules and assent to the Church? There’s more to it than that, and people who are intelligent enough to go into apologetics would greatly benefit from looking into this side of the Church.

Of course, since Vatican II clarified that holiness is for everyone include the laity and “active” clergy (as opposed to cloistered clergy) then I suppose we really don’t believe it because Vatican II is seemingly up for debate. (That doesn’t figure either – people who say the Church cannot err in faith and morals and the gates of hell will not prevail against her, but then say Vatican II messed it up so in essence we’re sinking now. Oh well, one of these days I’ll quit trying to understand illogic and maybe I’ll get healthy enough to get a “real” job.)

Alan

 

[goravens]

AlanFromWichita:

That sounds a little like Lectio Divina, which contains several levels of intimacy with the divine, rather than actual “CP” in the way Keating et al describe it. The key word here is “meditate” which is active rather than passive like CP is intended to be.

It doesn’t sound exactly like Lectio either, but it sounds like it’s something that’s working well for you.

Alan

You’re right, and your posts on centering prayer are very insightful. I even thought after I typed my original post how “meditate” was the wrong word to use. It’s about becoming quiet to rest in God.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Vonier:

Just a suggestion, but maybe it would be more to the point to pick up a book or two by Thomas Keating and give them a look see before condemning. Read “Open Mind, Open Heart”, it’s only 132 pages long. Then decide what you think about centering prayer.

I want to thank you Alan for your cogent posts.

Thank you for your kind words.

Keating and others have helped pick me up when I went crazy, IMO partly due to obediently serving in Church leadership myself and being unable to reconcile Church teachings, the words of Christ, and even diocesan regulations and procedures with the ignorance and stubbornness and hypocracy I found there.

They have given me new life, and shown me that there are parts of the Church that compliment the part we mostly see. If it weren’t for the spiritual journey and the mystical teachings of the Church, all these dogma and rules would be without value whatsoever in a New Testament environment.

Frankly, if it weren’t for Keating, there is a good chance I would no longer be a practicing Catholic, having seen and been damaged by the ugliness on the outside of the Church but not even knowing of its inner beauty until he (and direction from a wonderful SD) helped me understand what spiritual journey is all about, in conjunction with other mystical readings.

Now don’t any of you get any ideas about how the Church would be better off without me. Remember I can’t leave due to mortal sin, nor be thrown out; you and I will just have to accept that yes, I am a member of the Catholic family and there’s nothing any of us can do about it.

Alan

 

[GoldenArrow]

I’m hearing a lot of “Me-ism” on this particular thread.

It seems that most of you are all very spiritual and very learned, more so than I. If you would only take the focus off yourselves, maybe you’d advance to the higher mansions. If you’re hung up in one of the mansions, maybe its because you’re approaching God from the wrong angle.

Our culture feeds us this mentality. Our world programs us to “Look out for Number One” and to always ask, “What’s in it for me?” or “What’s the easiest and most painless way to accomplish this or that?” or “Is there a shortcut?” We cut each other off on the highway, racing to our destination above the speed limits, endangering ourselves and others. We want to be the first! We want to WIN! I see the exact same thing happening in the Church, and on this thread.

We look to ease Moral suffering by seeking shortcuts and the route of least suffering instead of embracing difficulties by taking the long route and slowing down.

It seems this mentality leads many people into seeking shortcuts such as Centering Prayer. Some, (Not all!) of these types of souls seek God just for themselves without thought or care of anyone else. They want to be the greatest, the most glorious saint in Heaven! This a product of the fallen human nature. Even the Apostles made this error, arguing amongst themselves about “who among us will be the greatest?”

Christ quickly rebuked them, “The least will be the greatest.”

Before approaching the spiritual life, one should ask, “Why am I doing this?” The right answers is: “To save souls!” Approach the deep spiritual life with your gaze always deviated AWAY from yourself.

St. Theresa Avila and the other Saints had extraordiary virtue and extraordinary love of God and Neighbor. These are the signs of spiritual perfection.

A true Contemplative has the Ten Virtues of Mary wrapped around his/her heart in a crown of thorns, and a true Contemplative desires and accepts the Wound of the Sacred Heart, pierced by the Spear of Destiny. These are prerequisites.

People who take shortcuts in life or prayer probably lack the virtues that are required of a Contemplative in the first place.

Ten Virtues of Mary per DuMontfort are: Deep humility, lively faith, blind obedience, unceasing prayer, constant self-denial, surpassing purity, ardent love, heroic patience, angelic kindness and heavenly wisdom. Seek these Ten Virtues and you will advance to the next mansion. Seek your own desires, and you will remain static.

God bless. Appreciate the good and lively discussion.

 

[GoldenArrow]

Quietism? OMG, another “ism” invented. If “quietism” or silent prayer is a bad thing, then somebody needs to go rewrite the CCC, because it not only allows silent prayer, it actually states that prayer “ought” to move beyond vocal and strive for true union, which contemplative prayer achieves.

Quietism was officially condemned as heresy. Here’s the definition and history of it from Modern Catholic Dictionary by Father John Hardon, page 454:

QUIETISM–General name for any view of the spiritual life that minimizes human activity and moral responsibility. But more properly it refers to the theories of Miguel de Molinos and Francois Fenelon, Archbishop of Cambrai. Its basic position is that, to become perfect, one must be totally passive, annihilate one’s will and so totally abandon oneself to God that one cares for neither heaven nor hell. In prayer, the perfect soul makes no acts of love or petition, nor even of adoration. Such total passivity makes mortification or the sacraments useless. Sin becomes impossible to perfect souls. Quietism was condemned in the person of Molinos by Pope Innocent XI in 1687, and Fenelon by Innocent XII in 1691.

Contemplation is a passo-active form of prayer, where the Will is active. A definition from the same book, page 129:

CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER: In general that form of mental prayer in which the affective sentiments of the Will predominate, as distinct from discursive reflections of the mind. Or again, it is that prayer which looks at God by contemplating and adoring his attributes more than by asking Him for favors or thanking Him for graces received.

I was unable to find a definition of “Centering Prayer” or “Lectio Divina” in this same book.

Quote:
I actually am very good at Centering Prayer! Within five minutes, I can step outside space and time, and I can sit in this state for hours and not even realize it. Scary!

I’m not sure whether you’re being sarcastic here or not. I’m assuming you are making a characature of your experiences?

I wasn’t being sarcastic. This is actually what occurred.

Someone wanted to know what my definition of seeing “bad thing” was, insinuating it was my imagination.

The bad things I saw after doing Centering Prayer via Zen Meditiation: Initially, I thought my senses were getting stronger and more acute. Sounds were clearer. Lights were stronger. The world seems bright! As the two weeks passed, I realized that my brain was losing the ability to filter sensory stimuli. By the middle of the second week, I started feeling a little anxious. Didn’t think too much of it. Then, just before I started seeing “bad things” I had feelings of mild paranoia. By the end of the two weeks, I saw people’s faces change shape–the hallucinations I described as “bad things.” The shape of the face was still the person’s face, but it had distorted features and UGLY demon-like expressions, that lasted for a fraction of a second. The only thing I liken it to is some images seen in the movie, The Ring. This movie was released YEARS after my experience, so there was no influence. The best example of what I saw was the scene near the end of the movie, where the ex-husband is watching the spirit of the dead girl walk out of the TV set. The expression on the dead girl’s face was similar to what I saw, except that the images that I saw were different in the respect that the features were distorted and that the demonic image and the actual image of the persons’ face overlapped and visible simultaneously. Like … the demonic expression was … like a transparency over the person’s real face. I saw this with my waking eyes in the Grocery store and in the Mall in at least 10 people, in broad daylight, and on about 3 different occasions. When I ceased the Centering Prayer, the imagery ceased within a few days and I haven’t seen anything like this ever since.

So … that’s my definition of “bad things” and I don’t think it was my imagination because the imagery stopped after I stopped doing the Centering Prayer and there have been no recurrences.

It was God’s way of saying to me, “Golden Arrow, DO NOT TOUCH THAT, because it’s hot!”

That’s my reason for this thread, to warn others that this form of prayer may … depending on what form is used … lead to a cliff!

 

[mhansen]

GoldenArrow:

The bad things I saw after doing Centering Prayer via Zen Meditiation:

That’s my reason for this thread, to warn others that this form of prayer may … depending on what form is used … lead to a cliff!

My friend,

This is where the misunderstanding lies. Zen Meditation is NOT Centering Prayer. You cannot “do” Centering Prayer via Zen Meditation, as you put it.

There is only one “form” of Centering Prayer. Thank you for sharing your experiences, but I regret to inform you that they are NOT experiences related in any way, shape, or form to Centering Prayer. While your motives for starting this thread were undoubtedly good, the reality behind it is false. Zen is Zen. CP is CP.

Mike

 

[whosebob]

JMJ + OBT​

I don’t have much to say on this subject that others haven’t articulated more clearly earlier in the thread.

I will note that spiritual master and guide Fr. Thomas Dubay, S.M. gives a decidely negative evaluation of Centering Prayer in his more recent books.

Here is a link to an essay on Lectio Divina, which can serve as a tried-and-true alternative to Centering Prayer, for those who are not comfortable or who have become uncomfortable with CP.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[DBT]

GoldenArrow:

Contemplation is a passo-active form of prayer, where the Will is active.

Forgive me if I take you out of context . . . I really haven’t followed the in’s and out’s of this thread to closely. But I think you hit upon the heart, at least in my opinion, of this whole “debate” over CP.

The problem, as I see it, is one of reference points . . . we’re all approaching this subject from very different vantage points.

I agree with what you say in this quote to a certain point . . . and St. Teresa’s Interior Castle explains what I mean. Most of us strive to live a good and holy life and practice the virtues to the best of our abilities. Our prayer is probably predominately based in vocal prayers . . . perhaps meditation. Without over simplifying things, this is what St. Teresa describes in the first three mansions . . . where most of us spend our entire lives.

To your point above, yes the will is very much “active” when one prays through vocal prayer and mediation. However, that is decidedly not the case with contemplation . . . what St. Teresa describes in the 4th through 7th mansions. Here the will is anything but active . . . it’s entirely passive. Hence the name infused contemplation.

How this all ties back to CP, again IMHO, is simply this: CP is a technique that might have a certain value for those leaving the 3rd mansion (meditation) and entering into the initial stages of contemplation (4th mansion). St. Teresa speaks at great lengths about how one must “recollect” oneself in order to be prepared to recieve the gift of contemplation. And to some people at this point in the spiritual life . . . CP is probably best viewed as a form of recollection.

What drives this whole debate, again IMHO, is that most people simply aren’t contemplatives - eventhough that’s what we’re all meant to be. So most people simply don’t understand things like CP and how it might be of certain value to some individuals. It’s not how they’ve been called to pray . . . so it seems foreign and unnatural . . . maybe even a little dangerous. And for those who’ve had bad experiences with it, well that probably means that God wasn’t calling you to this type of prayer in the first place.

The bottom-line is this: for those called to contemplative prayer if CP helps you and is producing fruit in your life, then by all means stick with it.

Dave

BTW - I don’t consider myself a “defender” of CP - I just don’t want to be one who denies it’s value to certain people.

 

[DBT]

JMJ + OBT​

I will note that spiritual master and guide Fr. Thomas Dubay, S.M. gives a decidely negative evaluation of Centering Prayer in his more recent books.

Yes what you say is true . . . and I respect Fr. Dubay very much. Again, I think St. Teresa’s mansions summarizes all of this very well. There’s a natural progression in the spiritual life that, God willing, ultimately leads to contemplation. And for some contemplatives, CP has certain value.

I might be wrong but I’ve always viewed Fr. Dubay’s change of opinion to be more about how CP is “marketed” rather than about it’s content. If this is true, then I agree.

Unfortunately the biggest rap I’ve seen about CP is that to many people who aren’t ready for it have been exposed to it by various means leading to all sorts of problems. A little more discretion and prudence in marketing to the general population and a bit less zeal would probably help CP’s cause in the long run.

If I’m wrong about Fr. Dubay’s beef, please fill us in because I think he has much to say.

Dave.

 

[whosebob]

DBT:

If I’m wrong about Fr. Dubay’s beef, please fill us in because I think he has much to say.

JMJ + OBT​

You are definitely not wrong, but your understaning of his opinion-shift is incomplete.

I will have to find the exact quote (I think he made one such statement in Prayer Primer, Igniting a Fire Within), but basically Fr. Dubay has said . . .

(not an exact quote)

that he was deeply concerned about how Centering Prayer was being “marketed” and taught in general. And, that while it might be considered as an option for someone who has advanced beyond the earlier stages of development in contemplative prayer and is at a transition point in that development (as you suggested), he believes there are superior options that ought to be recommended in place of CP.

Again, I will search for the exact quote(s) and get back to you. But if I can be immodest for one moment, I have an excellent memory and assure you that what I’ve related above is accurate.

 

[Eliza10]

GoldenArrow:

I have two very good CON articles regarding Centering Prayer. Both explain why Eastern Meditation and Catholic Contemplation cannot mix.

saint-mike.org/library/Occult/CenteringPrayer.html

and

dotm.org/decelles-1.htm
…

The first article points says that “Cloud of Unknowing” is okay. I’m glad to see that. I have subscribed for awhile to a yahoogoup of that same name, that sends you daily excerpts from the book, Cloud of Unknowing, and although I don’t read it everyday and haven’t lately, I did try some of the prayer techniques which are akin to “empyting yourself”, and it is the closest thing I ever got to contemplation except sometimes before the tabernacle. It really helps me to be in God’s presence when I don’t know what to pray and I don’t seem to be “there” for my spoken prayers.

Cloud of Unknowing really seems to fill that need for how to contemplate for the busy mind that needs direction on how to quiet and focus on God. I can see how the techniques of “centering prayer” will fill a need for people but it is surely unwise to ignore these strong warnings from very reputable places.

And I wonder if the writeer here, “Contemplative” is going to come back and let us know if she thinks the further sources offered are good?

I know of one woman who uses Centering Prayer and I would not turn to her as a Catholic model of devotion - while these many of these others I would, like Dubay.

Why not err on the side of caution, especially when there is sitting before the Tabernacle, or Adoration. And there is also Cloud of Unknowing as a how-to manual, which can be done before the Tabernacle. Then there is St. Teresa of Avila’s book, which I have not read, but intend to someday.

 

[DBT]

JMJ + OBT​

You are definitely not wrong, but your understaning of his opinion-shift is incomplete.

I will have to find the exact quote (I think he made one such statement in Prayer Primer, Igniting a Fire Within), but basically Fr. Dubay has said . . .

(not an exact quote)

that he was deeply concerned about how Centering Prayer was being “marketed” and taught in general. And, that while it might be considered as an option for someone who has advanced beyond the earlier stages of development in contemplative prayer and is at a transition point in that development (as you suggested), he believes there are superior options that ought to be recommended in place of CP.

Again, I will search for the exact quote(s) and get back to you. But if I can be immodest for one moment, I have an excellent memory and assure you that what I’ve related above is accurate.

Thank you! I look forward to what you have to say. What I’ve been trying to say in my cumbersome posts can pretty much be summarized by your nice “pseudo” quote above.

Dave.

BTW- I’d be very interested in what he has to say about “superior options.”

 

[Peace-bwu]

My eight year old daughter has a purple belt in Karate (almost brown) she has been taking Karate for nearly 4 years. I noticed her sitting in the meditative pose off and on since Karate Kamp this summer. Her sensi is Catholic so I have not worried too much that her training involves Eastern religion, but it was bothersome to me to see a child who normally tries to pray the rosary and is prayerful, enjoys reading about the saints and the Bible to be “meditating.” I guess because I didn’t know exactly what form of meditation they were doing. I tried to tell her that if she is meditating she needs to be praying at the same time. Do you think my concern is warranted? It creeps me out, but I use contemplative prayer often and tried to help her to use that rather than whatever form of meditation they are using at Karate. Now after reading these articles it alarms me more.

 

[buzzcut]

Oh no … not this subject again

Centering prayer wasn’t exactly “marketed” … people came and asked to hear about it.

“in May 1982, I was asked by the assistant pastor in Aspen to offer a presentation on prayer once a week for four consecutive weeks. A small mention of the event was put in the parish bulletin and, to our surprise, about eighty people showed up.”

Quoted from Intimacy with God by Fr Keating, with my underlining added.

 

[mhansen]

Peace-bwu:

My eight year old daughter has a purple belt in Karate (almost brown) she has been taking Karate for nearly 4 years. I noticed her sitting in the meditative pose off and on since Karate Kamp this summer. Her sensi is Catholic so I have not worried too much that her training involves Eastern religion, but it was bothersome to me to see a child who normally tries to pray the rosary and is prayerful, enjoys reading about the saints and the Bible to be “meditating.” I guess because I didn’t know exactly what form of meditation they were doing. I tried to tell her that if she is meditating she needs to be praying at the same time. Do you think my concern is warranted? It creeps me out, but I use contemplative prayer often and tried to help her to use that rather than whatever form of meditation they are using at Karate. Now after reading these articles it alarms me more.

No. There is nothing inherently wrong with meditating. As one who has both meditated and practiced maritial arts, what your daughter is doing really has nothing to do with Eastern religion. She is not being taught any Buddhist precepts or anything like that. She is simply meditating, without any religious connotation whatsoever. It is used as a means to relax and to clear the mind/increase awareness, thereby improving performance (ideally), in the practitioner. Nothing to worry about.

Mike

 

[ncjohn]

In the 4 days I spent in a CP “conference” with Thomas Keating, I never heard anything that approaced what the OP describes. Alan has very accurately described what I heard and what I have encountered in my experiences with it, although he is apparently much more practiced in it than I am.

Different prayer styles work for different people. There is no “quick and easy” way to access God. To “access” God we have to follow the advice of John the Baptist: “I must decrease that He might increase.”

Centering prayer is one way that helps get our egos out of God’s way so we can be open to listening. When I properly dispose myself, I find it to do exactly that. When I bring in more baggage than I can unload at the moment, at most I feel my normal distracted self.

Peace,