Centering Prayer

[system]

I just wanted to see how many people agree with centering prayer. Here is the definition I am refering to.

The Method of Centering Prayer
Centering Prayer is a method designed to facilitate the development of contemplative prayer by preparing our faculties to cooperate with this gift. It is an attempt to present the teaching of earlier time (e.g. The Cloud of Unknowing) in an updated form and to put a certain order and regularity into it. It is not meant to replace other kinds of prayer; it simply puts other kinds of prayer into a new and fuller perspective. During the time of prayer we consent to God’s presence and action within. At other times our attention moves outward to discover God’s presence everywhere.

The Guidelines
Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.

When you become aware of thoughts, return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.

At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.

 

[puzzleannie]

Centering Prayer is NOT contemplative prayer, which is a gift from God, not a technique to be learned or something that can be self-induced by any method. Centering Prayer is NOT based on or drawn from the Cloud of Unknowing, but is a mis-statement and misapplication of the wisdom of that author. Centering Prayer was an attempt to meld Eastern meditation practices drawn from Buddhism with Christian prayer. For a true definition of infused contemplation see Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross. See also the numerous threads on this topic, and the TR article condemning the practice for its origins outside the Christian prayer tradition. Chrisitianity is rich in wisdom regarding prayer, true mysticism and true contemplation. To go outside that wisdom is absurd. To equate the self-hypnosis and altered state that may arise from the technique you describe with true contemplative prayer displays an appalling lack of appreciation for Christian tradition on prayer and spirituality. Begin your education with the last section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church for a great introduction to prayer.

 

[system]

puzzleannie:

Centering Prayer is NOT contemplative prayer, which is a gift from God, not a technique to be learned or something that can be self-induced by any method. Centering Prayer is NOT based on or drawn from the Cloud of Unknowing, but is a mis-statement and misapplication of the wisdom of that author. Centering Prayer was an attempt to meld Eastern meditation practices drawn from Buddhism with Christian prayer. For a true definition of infused contemplation see Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross. See also the numerous threads on this topic, and the TR article condemning the practice for its origins outside the Christian prayer tradition. Chrisitianity is rich in wisdom regarding prayer, true mysticism and true contemplation. To go outside that wisdom is absurd. To equate the self-hypnosis and altered state that may arise from the technique you describe with true contemplative prayer displays an appalling lack of appreciation for Christian tradition on prayer and spirituality. Begin your education with the last section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church for a great introduction to prayer.

I know all of this, I was just wondering what the general public here thinks. Thank you for the response.

 

[Augustine]

What exactly are you asking? I agree that this is the definition of CP, but it itself is quite disagreeable…

 

[system]

Augustine:

What exactly are you asking? I agree that this is the definition of CP, but it itself is quite disagreeable…

What I am asking is if anyone thinks that centering prayer is a valid form of Catholic Prayer. I know what I believe (it isn’t). I have been having a conversation with another Catholic who thinks that centering prayer is mainstream. I believe that I am in line with the churches teaching by speaking out against this. I just wanted to take a poll to see if I am in the mainstream. Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Augustine]

vicia3:

What I am asking is if anyone thinks that centering prayer is a valid form of Catholic Prayer. I know what I believe (it isn’t). I have been having a conversation with another Catholic who thinks that centering prayer is mainstream. I believe that I am in line with the churches teaching by speaking out against this. I just wanted to take a poll to see if I am in the mainstream. Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

What does he mean by “mainstream”? It’s yet another infiltration of New Age beliefs in the Church.

But unfortunately, I’m not sure that the Church has made statements about it yet.

 

[system]

Augustine:

What does he mean by “mainstream”? It’s yet another infiltration of New Age beliefs in the Church.

But unfortunately, I’m not sure that the Church has made statements about it yet.

I believe that he means, what most Catholics believe. He said that they are really doing contemplative prayer. I told him that contemplative prayer can only be achieved from a gift from God. There is no other way.

 

[Augustine]

vicia3:

I told him that contemplative prayer can only be achieved from a gift from God. There is no other way.

Quite right. Prayer is a grace and deeper levels of prayer are achieved if God so decides. No technique can manhandle God into doing something. CP is purely Gnosticism under not much disguise.

 

[DBT]

I heard an interesting description called the 9-ladders of prayer this weekend. Briefly they are (from the best of my memory):

1. Vocal Prayer
2. Meditation
3. Affective Prayer
4. Prayer of Simplicity
5. Prayer of Recollection
6. Prayer of Quiet
7. Prayer of Union (illumination of the intellect)
8. Prayer of Union (absortion of the will)
9. Prayer of Union (transforming union)

Without be-laboring the details of each rung of the ladder, the main point with regard to this thread is this: Our active efforts are dominant in the lower rungs and God takes over by successive degrees as one climbs until ultimately God is everything and we are nothing.

I might be wrong, but I’ve always viewed proponents of CP as positioning their “method” as a way to kind of jump right to the Prayer of Recollection (#5) or the Prayer of Quiet (#6).

So my question to the CP folks is simply this: If the Church teaches us that prayer like the Prayer of Quiet is infused (solely a gift from God), then what good will techniques and methods have in any of this?

 

[urquhart]

DBT:

So my question to the CP folks is simply this: If the Church teaches us that prayer like the Prayer of Quiet is infused (solely a gift from God), then what good will techniques and methods have in any of this?

Most of us need to engage our minds in some activity when we sit down to pray. The CP folks who I know, start prayer with lectio divina, then meditate on what they have heard, while mentally repeating “Jesus”. And they do seem to understand that infused contemplation is a gift from God. Is what we non-CP folks do really so different?

 

[DBT]

urquhart:

Most of us need to engage our minds in some activity when we sit down to pray. The CP folks who I know, start prayer with lectio divina, then meditate on what they have heard, while mentally repeating “Jesus”. And they do seem to understand that infused contemplation is a gift from God. Is what we non-CP folks do really so different?

Yes, but what you’re saying - at least how I see it - is very different from the first post which is the more “traditional” presentation of CP around these forums . . . at least in my experience.

And I’m not casting any aspersions on those who practice CP. I believe it has probably helped some. But those fortunate souls, IMHO, were called to infused contemplation anyway. The problem, as experience on these forums amply shows, there are many, many people who are hurt by it. This, again IMHO, simply has to do with how CP is marketed.

Rarely do I see discussions in CP about fidelity to the practice of the virtues as “preparation” for the gift of contemplation . . . the long, slow, daily grid to growth in holiness that, for most of us, spans an entire lifetime. Think St. Teresa and her first 3 mansions.

Rather, what I see in discussions around here is that all that is needed for contemplation is a sacred word and 20 minutes a day. To me this is a kind of “get rich quick” mentality that bypasses the wisdom of the Saints. Who needs the first 3 mansions (and all the hard work) if I can just jump right to the 4th.

And, my guess is, this is probably one of the things the original poster is trying to get at.

Dave.

 

[system]

From what I have read in the Gospels, Jesus said that we are not to pray like the Pegans. The repeated things over and over to empty their thoughts. They were “self-meditating”. He spoke out clearly against this. Isn’t this what centering prayer is?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Yes, that is a good definition of CP.

Yes, CP is a valid form of Catholic prayer.

Yes, CP is designed to follow the method described in the Cloud of Unknowing, and achieves that goal.

No, CP is not for everyone. According to CCC, Christian prayer should become contemplative, but there are various ways to seek contemplation.

No, the “sacred word” is nothing like a mantra. It is used as a symbol of willingness to return from conscious thoughts which distract the mind to interior silence which is how we invite contemplation.

Yes, I know a lot of Catholic authors have lots of beefs with CP, but I have checked out dozens of them and they all suffer from one or more among the same few misconceptions. The anti-CP forces are just about like the anti-Catholic forces, in that they don’t fully understand what they’re talking about but choose to judge what they don’t know anyway.

There are also unauthorized CP meetings where they are not run according to Contemplative Outreach standards.

No, CP is not contemplative prayer, and…

No, the definition did not claim CP is contemplative prayer. Let’s take a look at what the definition actually says, “Centering Prayer is a method designed to facilitate the development of contemplative prayer by preparing our faculties to cooperate with this gift.” Centering prayer is a “method” or an exercise to go into one’s “inner room” by shutting out distractions, and sitting in silent invitation for the Holy Spirit to touch us.

Yes, if you have a spiritual director it is wise to ask whether it is good for you, or if maybe if you’re not ready, a more balanced approach to all three prayer forms such as Lectio might be better. Either way, read the CCC about forms of prayer, because if you’re missing out on contemplativer prayer, then according to CCC your prayer life isn’t what it should be. Contemplative prayer, per se, is a gift from God and can’t be achieved by following a method, as The Cloud clearly states. The method is to predispose our minds and hearts to allow this gift from God if, when, and at what rate He chooses to give us.

CP, therefore, does not “accomplish” contemplation. It simply invites it. It’s kind of like asking the noisy chorus of your busy mind to shush a bit so you can hear the voice of God speaking through the Holy Spirit, in the language of God which is silence.

Finally, some have reported to me in the past some bad experiences they had with CP. In most cases they were not following correct practices.

Alan

 

[Exporter]

puzzleannie:

Centering Prayer is NOT contemplative prayer, which is a gift from God, not a technique to be learned or something that can be self-induced by any method. Centering Prayer is NOT based on or drawn from the Cloud of Unknowing, but is a mis-statement and misapplication of the wisdom of that author. Centering Prayer was an attempt to meld Eastern meditation practices drawn from Buddhism with Christian prayer. For a true definition of infused contemplation see Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross. See also the numerous threads on this topic, and the TR article condemning the practice for its origins outside the Christian prayer tradition. Chrisitianity is rich in wisdom regarding prayer, true mysticism and true contemplation. To go outside that wisdom is absurd. To equate the self-hypnosis and altered state that may arise from the technique you describe with true contemplative prayer displays an appalling lack of appreciation for Christian tradition on prayer and spirituality. Begin your education with the last section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church for a great introduction to prayer.

---

Puzzelannie has written a post that should end this conversation. She has written The Catholic answer to the question. It is excellent!

Sometimes people are looking for “short-cuts” and sometimes they think Centering Prayer is that “short-cut”. Centering Prayer is based on Oriental or Eastern methods. Catholics don’t need METHODS.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

************************************************************************
Puzzelannie has written a post that should end this conversation. She has written The Catholic answer to the question. It is excellent!

Sometimes people are looking for “short-cuts” and sometimes they think Centering Prayer is that “short-cut”. Centering Prayer is based on Oriental or Eastern methods. Catholics don’t need METHODS.

It can end the conversation, but it is not correct. It is not the “Catholic” answer to the issue of centering prayer.

I like puzzleannie and I had no desire to point out details, and I know you have issues with Fr. Keating and Centering prayer.

That said, here are the specific issues: First, it is too built directly upon the Cloud of the Unkowing. As one who practiced CP at my SD’s advice for quite some time before reading the Cloud, I was astonished at the similarity not only in the practice itself but in all the attitudes that go along with it.

There is no doubt that there are Catholic authors who have a problem with it, but they all cluck the same tune because they all tell each other CP is this, CP is that, or they go to a session where they do not practice it correctly – for example, they don’t understand the difference between “sacred word” and “mantra” even though they are nearly opposed in meaning. Well duh, that’s about like complaining about Catholic Mass because you didn’t like a Protestant service.

Some people have negative psychological reactions during CP, and I advise that anybody sees a SD to determine their best course of action. Either way, do not disregard contemplative prayer as a part of your prayer life, or you will not be in line with CCC’s advice.

Exporter, I know you have a problem with CP and I don’t mind admitting that. Please do not try to claim that I am wrong on this because I think my “technical” knowledge about CP is quite adequate to explain your issues. As far as your own prayer life, if you follow some stranger on the Internet, then that’s up to you. People reading this who are not experts at CP will have to decide for themselves, if they care, whether CP is, in fact, Catholic.

For me it saved my mind and launched me on the spiritual journey, and began the healing process which has transformed me from a raging manic-depressive to the calmest person I know, even though I still “have” the disease. You cannot deny that any more than I can deny you can give me examples of people who got scared or experience other problems during CP. If you’ve never done any kind of prayer except vocal before, then maybe you really should get a “checkup” by a spiritual director. :yup:

If you wish to prove me wrong, please get some different material because none of the things you showed me before were conclusive.

Oh, and as far as studying the Catechism. Here’s where you start to understand the different forms of prayer, at 2700-2724.

You will see that contemplative prayer is true union, and vocal and meditative are preliminary to it. If you don’t think CP is for you, then for gosh sakes find another way to learn about contemplation. Lectio is good, and I think even Exporter will acknowledges that. If you start with Lectio Divina, that doesn’t Plunge You Right In to silent prayer like CP. It includes vocal, meditative, and contemplative components all in one practice. Plus, you have the advantage that Exporter and I don’t have to fight over it. (Right?)

We disagree on CP, but we agree that contemplative prayer is good, and that Cloud of the Unknowing is good. That’s two out of three I guess.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Here, I’ll see if I can get right to the source.

I sent an email to the pope. I hope I got the grammar right and it’s polite enough. If not, well I guess I’ll see if I get a response.

Subject: Greetings
Alan to Pope email:

Dear Most Holy Father,

I wish to extend my greetings. My wife and I and our six delightful
children are members of All Saints Church in Diocese of Wichita Kansas,
USA. I am church piano/organ player every week at two churches, and
love to make music for God.

The Catholic Church will continue to be the standard of truth. My
family is very pleased to welcome you.

Recently I’ve learned about contemplative prayer, specifically
Centering Prayer (according to Fr. Keating et al) and Lectio Divina. I
know you are very busy, but if you could spare a moment could you let
me know if these are prayer forms you approve of? Some think it isn’t
Catholic, but it has done a lot of good for me so I hope I am not
misled.

Thank you for your service to our Holy Church, and please let me know
if there’s anything one person across the planet from you can do!

Thank you again,

Alan

 

[DBT]

AlanFromWichita:

Yes, I know a lot of Catholic authors have lots of beefs with CP, but I have checked out dozens of them and they all suffer from one or more among the same few misconceptions.

Hi Alan -

It’s good to see you around here I really enjoy your posts and the passion you bring to the discussion.

I guess this is just one of those things that neither side (if there is such a thing) will ever convince those of differing viewpoints. Opinions just seem solidly entrenched . . . one way or the other.

All I can say is that the “authors” I take to heart are the Saints and especially the Doctors. The more I read, re-read and try to live the things they teach - the more I see the divergence between what they say and what the CP folks say. Unfortunately, this is something I’ll never be able to “prove” in any sort of way. Nevertheless, it is just something I’ve come to “know.”

For anyone interested in CP, I would highly recommend sitting down and slowly reading the poetry of St. John of the Cross. The LOVE just drips off the pages. You can FEEL it even after these some 400 odd years since he wrote. Then, read the commentary to see what the Saint says one must do to reach this depth of love, which is the entire essence of contemplation, and ask yourself a question: Is this what CP teaches?

Maybe those drawn to CP think it’s all the same thing. But for the life of me I just can’t see how any kind of technique can “create” or “pre-dispose” one to the kind of love St. John, St. Teresa, St. Therese or any of the other great mystics speak. Techniques just aren’t found anywhere in what they teach . . . It’s just worlds apart.

No, the love of the Saints only comes from one place.

My best wishes to you Alan . . .

Dave.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Hi DBT,

DBT:

I guess this is just one of those things that neither side (if there is such a thing) will ever convince those of differing viewpoints. Opinions just seem solidly entrenched . . . one way or the other.

Well, that’s fine but it’s schizmatic.

Either the Church speaks to this or not. Abbot Generals have spoken about CP in front of the Holy Father JPII, under the topic of unity with Christ.

If the Church speaks on it, then I don’t accept an opinion poll of a handful of people I’ve never met as authoritative, unless they can give me any information that is both against CP and technically accurate.

If the Holy Father tells me CP is okay, then I’ll let you know and give you one of these: . If you then wish to say the Truth of the Church is determined by anything in this thread, you are welcome to do so. :whacky:

If he tells me CP is not OK, then I will give you one of these. (Note: this is for demonstration only; it is not the Real Deal::bowdown: )

All I can say is that the “authors” I take to heart are the Saints and especially the Doctors. The more I read, re-read and try to live the things they teach - the more I see the divergence between what they say and what the CP folks say. Unfortunately, this is something I’ll never be able to “prove” in any sort of way. Nevertheless, it is just something I’ve come to “know.”

I’d be fascinated to see you start a thread about “Doctors v CP”

For anyone interested in CP, I would highly recommend sitting down and slowly reading the poetry of St. John of the Cross. The LOVE just drips off the pages. You can FEEL it even after these some 400 odd years since he wrote. Then, read the commentary to see what the Saint says one must do to reach this depth of love, which is the entire essence of contemplation, and ask yourself a question: Is this what CP teaches?

That’s not playing fair.

Those verses are sooooo wonderful. :crying:

OK, so Dark Night is too cool. Some think it’s too heady for the average sinner but I say give it a shot. It really depends on your state of mind. Sometimes it hits you like a ton of bricks, sometimes not. If I can’t at least read the words, then why would they let me gaze upon a beautiful painting?

Maybe those drawn to CP think it’s all the same thing. But for the life of me I just can’t see how any kind of technique can “create” or “pre-dispose” one to the kind of love St. John, St. Teresa, St. Therese or any of the other great mystics speak. Techniques just aren’t found anywhere in what they teach . . . It’s just worlds apart.

Speak it bro’. These folks took every approach they could get, or they followed their SDs I figure.

No, the love of the Saints only comes from one place.

No doubt!

Love is one of the few things that should never be done in moderation!

My best wishes to you Alan . . .

Dave.

Same to you, Dave: :tiphat:

Thanks for the lively conversation!

Alan

Stanzas Of The Soul 1. One dark night,
fired with love’s urgent longings

• ah, the sheer grace! -
  I went out unseen,
  my house being now all stilled.
  2. In darkness, and secure,
  by the secret ladder, disguised,
• ah, the sheer grace! -
  in darkness and concealment,
  my house being now all stilled.

1. On that glad night,
   in secret, for no one saw me,
   nor did I look at anything,
   with no other light or guide
   than the one that burned in my heart.
2. This guided me
   more surely than the light of noon
   to where he was awaiting me

• him I knew so well -
  there in a place where no one appeared.

1. O guiding night!
   O night more lovely than the dawn!
   O night that has united
   the Lover with his beloved,
   transforming the beloved in her Lover.
2. Upon my flowering breast
   which I kept wholly for him alone,
   there he lay sleeping,
   and I caressing him
   there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.
3. When the breeze blew from the turret,
   as I parted his hair,
   it wounded my neck
   with its gentle hand,
   suspending all my senses.
4. I abandoned and forgot myself,
   laying my face on my Beloved;
   all things ceased; I went out from myself,
   leaving my cares
   forgotten among the lilies.

 

[system]

AlanFromWichita:

There is no doubt that there are Catholic authors who have a problem with it, but they all cluck the same tune because they all tell each other CP is this, CP is that, or they go to a session where they do not practice it correctly – for example, they don’t understand the difference between “sacred word” and “mantra” even though they are nearly opposed in meaning. Well duh, that’s about like complaining about Catholic Mass because you didn’t like a Protestant service.

We disagree on CP, but we agree that contemplative prayer is good, and that Cloud of the Unknowing is good. That’s two out of three I guess.

Alan

This is specifically what the CCC says :“2708 Meditation engages thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. This mobilization of faculties is necessary in order to deepen our convictions of faith, prompt the conversion of our heart, and strengthen our will to follow Christ. Christian prayer tries above all to meditate on the mysteries of Christ, as in lectio divina or the rosary. This form of prayerful reflection is of great value, but Christian prayer should go further: to the knowledge of the love of the Lord Jesus, to union with him.”

Everything I have read for CP says that you empty your thoughts. The CCC does not say that is a valid form of Catholic prayer.
What is the difference between “sacred word” and mantra?

This is the definition I found for mantra:
"mantra

n 1: a commonly repeated word or phrase; “she repeated So pleased with how its going' at intervals like a mantra" 2: (Sanskrit) literally a sacred utterance’ in Vedism; one of a collection of orally transmitted poetic hymns”
Don’t you just pick a sacred word, like Jesus or part of the scriptures and repeat it over and over. Isn’t that the definition of mantra?

Also, I do not agree with the “Cloud of the Unknowing.”

Thank you for your responses.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

vicia3:

This is specifically what the CCC says :"

Yes, that is talking about meditative prayer. Note that the CCC says that prayer should go deeper into this, into true union.

What kind of prayer is true union? Voila. Contemplative prayer.
CCC 2724:

Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in his mystery.

Hopefully we can at least agree that contemplative prayer is important!

Everything I have read for CP says that you empty your thoughts. The CCC does not say that is a valid form of Catholic prayer.

I don’t like the phrase “empty your thoughts” because that implies you’re actually doing something active. That’s sounds about like saying, “don’t think about pink elephants” and you’re supposed to do it.

What you do, is you sit silently. That’s all. It is wonderful to do during Eucharistic Adoration, sitting still and silently, eyes closed, just being in the presence of the Lord without trying to have to put it into human words.

The CCC explains that this prayer does not use words:
CCC 2717:

Contemplative prayer is silence, the “symbol of the world to come” or “silent love.” Words in this kind of prayer are not speeches; they are like kindling that feeds the fire of love. In this silence, unbearable to the “outer” man, the Father speaks to us his incarnate Word, who suffered, died, and rose; in this silence the Spirit of adoption enables us to share in the prayer of Jesus.

Note the CCC says “unbearable to the outer man.” That’s why you should see an SD to see what prayers are best for you. When the Light of Truth shines on the dark recesses of your soul, a few things start showing up and scattering around that had been hiding. This doesn’t set well with some people so again, see SD.

What is the difference between “sacred word” and mantra?

Sacred word is a symbol of love, which has no literal meaning. It shows a willing desire to let go of our worldly selves and our usual worldly concerns and thoughts. It is used to help still thoughts that disturb the silence the CCC mentioned.

By “no literal meaning” I mean an utterance that is nothing more than an utterance, with no thoughts attached that then trigger other associated thoughts. A mantra has literal meaning, and repeating it reinforces that meaning. The sacred word is just a sign that we use to distract ourselves back away from thoughts that are interesting and want to creep into our minds.

There is no rule that says you have to use a sacred word at any given interval. For me sometimes I can just sit there quietly and really not think of anything in particular, just resting in the presence of God. The sacred word doesn’t even have to be a word. You may also use some image or some other means to “let go” of interesting thoughts as they occur to you.

The reason the word is “sacred” I suppose, is that it has symbolic meaning but no literal meaning. The Cloud thinks the sacred word should be a single syllable to mimimize trying to intellectualize it I guess.

This is the definition I found for mantra:
"mantra

n 1: a commonly repeated word or phrase; “she repeated So pleased with how its going' at intervals like a mantra" 2: (Sanskrit) literally a sacred utterance’ in Vedism; one of a collection of orally transmitted poetic hymns”
Don’t you just pick a sacred word, like Jesus or part of the scriptures and repeat it over and over. Isn’t that the definition of mantra?

If you used “part of the scriptures” it would be way too long, and become a distraction in itself, thwarting the purpose of having the sacred word. For example, if you repeat “Jesus loves me” it’s hard to articulate that much verbal information without assigning it literal meaning, distracting your mind so that you think about the meaning of “Jesus loves me” instead of sitting in silence.

Maybe the sacred word can just be a nonsense syllable.

Also, I do not agree with the “Cloud of the Unknowing.”

Oh. You’re the first one I know of who’s said that. Do you not agree with it because you haven’t read it, or did you try to read it and it didn’t speak to you? That happens, as the author suggests if you don’t like the book he’d rather you just not read it than try to debate it.

You do agree contemplative prayer is important, right?

Alan